"Future" Trunks Arc Timeline & Paradox Discussion Thread

[Speedster]

A timeline is a 4D entity, a sequence of “3D universal frames” spaced by a Plank time in 4th (time) dimension. In the 4D world everything (past, present, future) co-exists. The future history already exists but from our perspective it's fuzzy or in other words there is a default future history but is not yet solid and can be overwritten/changed. Past history can be changed too but that would require a timesplit and the creation of another existing timeline.

Generally, in order to maintain existence you need to maintain your continuity in the timeline. That is because the 3D instance of yourself at a certain timepoint depends on all the 3D instances of yourself that preceded that timepoint up until the very first one. However, if a person travels from one timeline to another, the timepoint they enter is their first 3D instance in the timeline and hence their new origin and reason of existence in that timeline. This means that a time-traveller to another timeline is unaffected by events that preceded their time-travel. Remember that different timelines are not linked in the 4th dimension. You need a 5D vehicle to travel from one to another so 4D existential continuities need to be independent amongst timelines.

Viewing things from this perspective means there is only need for two existing timelines (which also aligns with the fact there is only one recent time-ring created by “that idiot” aka Trunks). There is no *existing* Cell timeline, neither an unseen one, nor a Black’s one. All those were different fluid future histories that were overwritten by the actions of the time-travellers involved. But the time-travellers from those no-longer-existing timelines are unaffected as their new ‘origin’ and reason of existence is the moment they entered the timeline they are in.

The Cell who eventually became Perfect comes from a timeline that no longer exists but himself continued to exist (as if he successfully killed Trunks) because his "new origin” is his arrival in the main timeline. That is all the origin he needs in order to exist there. And that’s exactly what happens with Black too. Black comes from the original “fluid” future of the main timeline. That future has been overwritten but it doesn't matter as his existence doesn't rely on the main timeline anymore. His “origin” is his arrival in Trunks’ timeline. That’s sufficient for his own continuity and existence.

[Will]

There's 4 green time ring so there's atleast 4 timelines (5 if we count the main time ring.)

I don't think Black is from a different timeline though.
I think he's from Goku's timeline that has been altered/overwritten by Trunks in Super.
But Black still exist only thanks to his time ring like he said himself.

Isn't it possible that the reason Black originally fought Goku in his timeline could be because of Godtube or something else (eliminating the paradox)? Something like this

Pretty great, I will just change "F. Trunks's warns Goku and co in the past creating a new timeline" with "F. Trunks's warns Goku and co in the past altering/overwritting the present timeline"

[Speedster]

There's 4 green time ring so there's atleast 4 timelines (5 if we count the main time ring.)

Only one of them however was said that was created recently by that "idiot" (Trunks). So the other 4 are unrelated timelines that have been created a long time ago by others unrelated to the Dragonball cast we know. Also if you think about it Cell's time machine should had only been able to get them to Cell's timeline but instead it got them to Trunks'. So Cell's timeline is indeed overwritten.

[Terra-jin]

A timeline is a 4D entity, a sequence of “3D universal frames” spaced by a Plank time in 4th (time) dimension. In the 4D world everything (past, present, future) co-exists. The future already exists but from our perspective future history is fuzzy; there is default future history but is not yet solid and can be overwritten. Past history can be overwritten too but that would require a timesplit and the creation of another timeline.

Generally, in order to maintain existence you need to maintain your continuity in the timeline. That is because the 3D instance of yourself at a certain timepoint depends on all the 3D instances of yourself that preceded that timepoint. However, if a person travels from one timeline to another, then the timepoint they enter becomes their first 3D instance in the timeline and hence their new origin and reason of existence in that timeline. This means that a time-traveller to another timeline is unaffected by events that preceded their time-travel.

Interesting idea. If I understood you correctly, there is only one collection of 3D universal frames. Before the timeline was meddled with, these frames were completely sequential. If you were to travel to the past, you'd "insert" yourself in the 3D universal frame - the frame that corresponds with your exact moment of arrival. This modified frame would then continue to seep into the future, overwriting the frames one by one. In this sense, there is still one collection of 3D universal frames, but they can be grouped into two sets (two "timelines" from our perspective). Eventually, the altered timeline would overwrite the entire history of the 4D timespace when it reaches the end (if there is any, that is).

If I've misunderstood somewhere, please correct me. Basically, you seem to be saying that alternate timeline do not immediately vanish (as in other works of fiction involving time travel), but neither do they exist indefinitely as separate worlds. Instead, they exist temporarily as slowly fading stretches of unaltered time that are overtaken by the altered time frame by frame.

Gowasu does say that the timelines exist as separate worlds, so I'd personally subscribe to that view.

Viewing things from this perspective means there is only need for two timelines (which also aligns with the fact there is only one recent time-ring created by “that idiot” aka Trunks). There is no *existing* Cell timeline, neither an unseen one, nor a Black’s one. All those were different fluid future histories that were overwritten by the actions of the time-travellers involved. But the time-travellers from those no-longer-existing timelines are unaffected as their new ‘origin’ and reason of existence is the moment they last entered the timeline they are in.

The Cell who eventually became Perfect comes from a timeline that no longer exists but himself continued to exist (as if he successfully killed Trunks) because his "new origin” is his arrival in the main timeline. That is all the origin he needs in order to exist there. And that’s exactly what happens with Black too. Black comes from the original “fluid” future of the main timeline. That future has been overwritten but it doesn't matter. His existence doesn't rely on the main timeline anymore. His “origin” is his arrival in Trunks’ timeline. That’s sufficient for his own continuity and existence.

I wouldn't say that the future is fluid. It's fuzzy, or foggy, or simply unknown.

That would still require a set of circumstances that leads to Zamasu meeting Goku, yet not being killed by Beerus. As far as I can tell, this necessarily implies a time split somewhere, regardless of the fate of an old, overwritten history.

[dbs fanboy]

You know what?, at this point i'm gonna stop thinking about it for some time. Why?, because the story hasn't finished so i can't actually be sure of anything, i've made my own theory but that is just headcanon, and at the same time this looks like both a plothole or an unexplained story, as for example, some people think that it's a plothole because while Black was protected, he shouldn't be himself or retain any memory from the past that Trunks changed and that it didn't make sense (Black's existence) as in this case he would have appeareddue to Trunks involvement and he did this because our mistery villain existed.

But at the same time, those people are forgetting that as we got flashbacks that shown different events than the main timeline, so this would mean that it's imposible that Black came from the exact same timeline were Trunks arrived and that the fight with Goku was probably the same as ep 53's to not repeat it two times and save animation for new scenes; so in this case there wouldn't be an actual plothole that but we would need answers.

In the end it doesn't matter if it's not confusing or if it is, we're all theorizing about unfinished events. This is like the mistery of Black's identity, a lot of people thought that it could be Zamasu but at the same time, there was something missing; and we had multiple theories about it. And in the end, Black's identiy reveal was simple and it made sense.

Once everything has ended and every answer has been answered (we still don't know how Black could travel between timelines and we need more information about the time rings), we'll (well i) be able to properly say if this was a stupid plothole where Toei/Toriyama fucked it up with explanations, or if this was just a piece in the puzzle and the story makes sense.

I still like some theories thought, in special speedester's.
Edit:
That doesn't mean that i won't be focused with any detail in the story that could solve something.

[Speedster]

Interesting idea. If I understood you correctly, there is only one collection of 3D universal frames. Before the timeline was meddled with, these frames were completely sequential. If you were to travel to the past, you'd "insert" yourself in the 3D universal frame - the frame that corresponds with your exact moment of arrival. This modified frame would then continue to seep into the future, overwriting the frames one by one. In this sense, there is still one collection of 3D universal frames, but they can be grouped into two sets (two "timelines" from our perspective). Eventually, the altered timeline would overwrite the entire history of the 4D timespace when it reaches the end (if there is any, that is). If I've misunderstood somewhere, please correct me. Basically, you seem to be saying that alternate timeline do not immediately vanish (as in other works of fiction involving time travel), but neither do they exist indefinitely as separate worlds. Instead, they exist temporarily as slowly fading stretches of unaltered time that are overtaken by the altered time frame by frame.

I say there are two existing/separate timelines but no more. Creation of timelines should be viewed relative to the person who creates them. There is Trunks’ timeline and the timeline he created by changing his timeline’s past (what is known as main timeline). But there won't be new timelines by changing the future of these 2 timelines. Instead the future is simply overwritten. But even though the future of the main timeline is overwritten Black won't pop out of existence (because he was prevented from being created in the first place) because as far as his existential continuity is concerned it is his first 3D frame in Trunks’ timeline that now counts as his origin.

I wouldn't say that the future is fluid. It's fuzzy, or foggy, or simply unknown.

Fluid in the sense that from our perspective is not yet solidified and can still change form.

That would still require a set of circumstances that leads to Zamasu meeting Goku, yet not being killed by Beerus. As far as I can tell, this necessarily implies a time split somewhere, regardless of the fate of an old, overwritten history.

You don't need another reason for the two to meet up. It’s a causal broken loop. You need though a reason for breaking the original loop and hence diverting from the original future history (which led to the creation of Black). And the reason is Beerus killing Zamasu. A god killing a god affects the time-space continuum. Beerus was very insistent on that and Whis didn’t call bullshit. Yes Beerus was wrong on his assertion that it would affect Trunks' timeline but I doubt he was wrong about affecting time-space. By killing a god, Beerus ultimately “split” the main timeline (or rather diverted it) from its original future. He created a temporal distortion around that point in timespace which either affected the timing of the original events (e.g. time-shifting them to an earlier point) or caused time ripples that changed slightly the timeline's past in a way that led to them to catch Zamasu. And yes, that's a mutually dependent circumstance.

[sailorspazz]

It's to my understanding Beerus would destroy all existences of Zamasu in normal circumstances.

I know I've brought this up in other threads, but since this is now the main timeline discussion I suppose I'll point it out here too: all Beerus said was that a god destroying another god would definitely affect time-space, never that his destruction would wipe out all timelines' versions of that character. Yes, it was a possible interpretation of his line, but based on the situation, I don't think that's what he meant.

We saw from the scenes where Whis and the others were speculating about what Zamasu was plotting that they were always talking about the one from the present, never bringing up other timelines as a possibility. So the plot that Beerus ended up executing was to take out the present Zamasu, which would stop him from completing his plans. He assumed this would alter space-time, "fixing" the anomaly of Black's existence, and overwriting the predestined outcome of Zamasu becoming Black. And, given that Whis didn't contradict his assertion, we can assume that Beerus was correct that he could kill the Zamasu who traveled to another timeline, but only because he was the same one that originated from our timeline. And that's why in the episode itself, Black credits the Time Ring for protecting him from the events of the past; if he were from another timeline, it wouldn't matter what Beerus had done to an alternate version of him (I would point to Future Zamasu as evidence that alternate versions are not destroyed, but he's immortal anyway, so it can't be determined from him alone). Since the characters themselves never mentioned any timelines other than the present and future ones we've been following, I can't imagine that the intention was for Beerus to be destroying all versions of him without specifically saying that's what his ability would do.

[patisaur]

Hey guys i've been a fan of watching, understanding and breaking down time travel mechanics in different media whether be films or anime
Just a more in-depth video to clear up all the "this doesn't make any sense statements" since the series hasn't ended yet, Akira Toryama could potentially write things in different timelines where it would not make sense. But everything explained in the video below makes sense logically with no plot holes in events relating to the anime. Note that it is not the Zamasu from the timeline of future trunks, but it is both still Zamasu's from the future just different futures, since Goku does not exist in Future Trunk's Timeline he could never trigger the events of Zamasu turning evil. I do not explain the creation of timerings, just the mechanics and different timelines where things happen and branch out:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Eqz2k9PHE

[Marlowe89]

You don't need another reason for the two to meet up. It’s a causal broken loop. You need though a reason for breaking the original loop and hence diverting from the original future history (which led to the creation of Black). And the reason is Beerus killing Zamasu.

But how can Beerus "break" the causal loop if his actions are a fundamental part of the chain of events that serve as the driving force of that loop? Again, Goku wouldn't have fought Zamasu at all if Beerus didn't decide to investigate Zamasu. The whole reason the loop exists is partly because of Beerus' choices, and the culmination of those choices leads to Zamasu getting killed before he's able to enact his plans - ergo, there would have been no opportunity for Black's creation to begin with. Beerus declaring he can break time loops because he's a god isn't exactly consistent with the actual mechanics of this specific cycle because Beerus' motivations RELY on the cycle's existence.

That's where the problem arises with Toei's explanation and the whole "broken loop" theory. The only real world explanation that meshes with your interpretation is quantum multiverse theory, which states that every possible outcome exists in a vacuum.

[PMD]

This graphic and Geekdom101's video is the best way to explain things as they are for now.



I do believe Black is a consequence of Trunks travelling to the past to warn Goku & Co about Black, but at the same time I think Zamasu would end up knowing about Goku too, so those paths crossing are really interesting to develop in this debate as we wait for next episodes to complete our information (I think they will).

I think they're working with just two timelines: present (DBS timeline) and future (Trunks timeline), even though I think taking in consideration Cell's timeline and the new timeline Trunks created by saving Goku's life with the medicine, would be a much easier and logic way to explain all this mess.

We can pretty much agree in one thing: this arc is fucking amazing.

[patisaur]

This graphic and Geekdom101's video is the best way to explain things as they are for now.



I do believe Black is a consequence of Trunks travelling to the past to warn Goku & Co about Black, but at the same time I think Zamasu would end up knowing about Goku too, so those paths crossing are really interesting to develop in this debate as we wait for next episodes to complete our information (I think they will).

I think they're working with just two timelines: present (DBS timeline) and future (Trunks timeline), even though I think taking in consideration Cell's timeline and the new timeline Trunks created by saving Goku's life with the medicine, would be a much easier and logic way to explain all this mess.

We can pretty much agree in one thing: this arc is fucking amazing.

Do you not agree with my breakdown of timelines? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Eqz2k9PHE

[Hugo Boss]

Perhaps because the Beerus from Black's history wasn't aware of his plans. In order for Beerus to destroy Zamasu, Goku and company had to fight Future Zamasu and since there is only one Future I suppose the events that lead to Black's birth went differently. It's like there is the Future and the Present's future in a parallel. That's why Beerus said killing Present Zamasu would make time correct itself and erase the history of Future Zamasu and Black, but Future Zamasu is from a different timeline and the Time Ring protects Black's history as long as he possess it.

So, basically you're telling me that is not the same timeline? But another timeline where Goku fought the Zamasu that became Black?

I promised to reply to you and here it is. But I guess Speedster above explained very well what I was about to say.

[spoiler]

A timeline is a 4D entity, a sequence of “3D universal frames” spaced by a Plank time in 4th (time) dimension. In the 4D world everything (past, present, future) co-exists. The future history already exists but from our perspective it's fuzzy or in other words there is a default future history but is not yet solid and can be overwritten/changed. Past history can be changed too but that would require a timesplit and the creation of another existing timeline.

Generally, in order to maintain existence you need to maintain your continuity in the timeline. That is because the 3D instance of yourself at a certain timepoint depends on all the 3D instances of yourself that preceded that timepoint up until the very first one. However, if a person travels from one timeline to another, the timepoint they enter is their first 3D instance in the timeline and hence their new origin and reason of existence in that timeline. This means that a time-traveller to another timeline is unaffected by events that preceded their time-travel. Remember that different timelines are not linked in the 4th dimension. You need a 5D vehicle to travel from one to another so 4D existential continuities need to be independent amongst timelines.

Viewing things from this perspective means there is only need for two existing timelines (which also aligns with the fact there is only one recent time-ring created by “that idiot” aka Trunks). There is no *existing* Cell timeline, neither an unseen one, nor a Black’s one. All those were different fluid future histories that were overwritten by the actions of the time-travellers involved. But the time-travellers from those no-longer-existing timelines are unaffected as their new ‘origin’ and reason of existence is the moment they entered the timeline they are in.

The Cell who eventually became Perfect comes from a timeline that no longer exists but himself continued to exist (as if he successfully killed Trunks) because his "new origin” is his arrival in the main timeline. That is all the origin he needs in order to exist there. And that’s exactly what happens with Black too. Black comes from the original “fluid” future of the main timeline. That future has been overwritten but it doesn't matter as his existence doesn't rely on the main timeline anymore. His “origin” is his arrival in Trunks’ timeline. That’s sufficient for his own continuity and existence.

[/spoiler]

[Gowasum]

I liked Speedsters two timeline explanation, so I made an image to visualize all the events (see spoiler). The events are numbered chronologically so you can easily follow in what order they happened. Overwritten timelines are marked with different background colors from the point on when they were changed.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Btw a loop would be possible if Black/Trunks going back to the past would initiate the creation of Black somehow. But instead we see Zamasu getting killed by Beerus from what we know so far, so speaking of any loop or paradox doesn´t really make any sense.

[Alehandrew]

There's 4 green time ring so there's atleast 4 timelines (5 if we count the main time ring.)

I don't think Black is from a different timeline though.
I think he's from Goku's timeline that has been altered/overwritten by Trunks in Super.
But Black still exist only thanks to his time ring like he said himself.

Isn't it possible that the reason Black originally fought Goku in his timeline could be because of Godtube or something else (eliminating the paradox)? Something like this

Pretty great, I will just change "F. Trunks's warns Goku and co in the past creating a new timeline" with "F. Trunks's warns Goku and co in the past altering/overwritting the present timeline"

+1 although we don't know what exactly caused the timeline to be overwritten. I think it has more to do with Beerus killing Zamasu than Trunks travelling back in time.

[Hit!!]

I have a theory. What if the time ring creates an alternate version of yourself the moment you use it??

[UltimateHammerBro]

I've been trying to explain all this stuff to someone else and make a bit of sense of this, but I'm finding it impossible.

I was suggested that Black was a Zamasu from a timeline identical to the main series up to the point in which 'our' Zamasu was killed by Beerus, and 'theirs' wasn't, and went on to become Black. I rejected this because it would be a time loop, in which Black's existence would be necessary to turn Zamasu into Black, kind of defeating the purpose of alterations to the timeline existing.

I, in turn, suggested something similar to the already-discussed graphic: Black was a Zamasu from a timeline in which the events of the Black saga didn't happen, so there was no reason to suspect Zamasu and he could kill Gowasu easily and go on to become Black. However, this also poses a problem: how did he know about Goku, if he wouldn't have had any reason to meet or fight him?

I'm writing this because I have a feeling the series won't do much more, if anything at all, to try to explain it. In fact, they used to be so vague when referring to Trunks's timeline as 'the future' that I thought they wouldn't even adress the fact that they're separate timelines, and what happens in one doesn't have to affect the other. I'm glad they sorted that out, but they're currently acting as if a totally convincing explanation had already been laid out, so I don't know if it's just me who doesn't understand it

[Gowasum]

I, in turn, suggested something similar to the already-discussed graphic: Black was a Zamasu from a timeline in which the events of the Black saga didn't happen, so there was no reason to suspect Zamasu and he could kill Gowasu easily and go on to become Black. However, this also poses a problem: how did he know about Goku, if he wouldn't have had any reason to meet or fight him?

Don´t forget that Zamasu also needs to know about the Super Dragon Balls as well. A possible explanation: Zamasu saw Goku and Vegeta etc. on GodTube while Gowasu was watching the replay of the U6/U7 tournament for the Super Dragon Balls. Goku caught his attention since he appeared to be the most powerful of the contestants. In his disbelief that mortals can be as strong as gods he asked Gowasu to arrange a sparring session with Goku or maybe even Gowasu encouraged him to spar them to learn about mortals, whatever. Or maybe Goku/Beerus/Whis were on the way to the all universe tournament of Zeno and made a stop there to pick up strong fighters since Zamasu is pretty strong by himself. There sure are some possible ways to "explain" it.
Although I personally think the writers just didn´t think it through properly and just don´t care about plotholes they create, but maybe we will see more info later.

[DragonBallFoodie]

With all these parallel timelines existing and conflicting, I'm expecting a Time Crash situation to occur and Zeno to appear to fix it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TimeCrash

[emperior]

With all these parallel timelines existing and conflicting, I'm expecting a Time Crash situation to occur and Zeno to appear to fix it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TimeCrash

The theories above are incredible, really make me love this arc even more. A Time Crash would be very cool, would like to see it being the beginning of a new arc.

[Konig]

This graphic and Geekdom101's video is the best way to explain things as they are for now.



I do believe Black is a consequence of Trunks travelling to the past to warn Goku & Co about Black, but at the same time I think Zamasu would end up knowing about Goku too, so those paths crossing are really interesting to develop in this debate as we wait for next episodes to complete our information (I think they will).

I think they're working with just two timelines: present (DBS timeline) and future (Trunks timeline), even though I think taking in consideration Cell's timeline and the new timeline Trunks created by saving Goku's life with the medicine, would be a much easier and logic way to explain all this mess.

We can pretty much agree in one thing: this arc is fucking amazing.

There are some inconsistences on this. Firstly, in the present timeline without Trunks, even if Zamasu knew about Goku via kamitube, it's very unlikely that their fight would be exactly replicated (they show a flashback and they both are in the same events happened. Also, Zamasu says Trunks was "the reason" behind his zero mortal plan, so he had to know about Trunks messing with the timeline somehow.

I have my own theory, which is a bit more complex:



In this version, Trunks go to the present timeline to ask for help. The story goes as normal until Goku, Vegeta and Trunks go to the future and then go back. When this happens, two timelines are created (like in every time travel): one where they actually go back, and one where they didn't. The first one is the present timeline we see in Super. The other one is Black's timeline.

In Black's timeline, the following happens: He asks Zuno about the Super Dragon Balls and about Goku (which he would do anyway, so the time travel had no effect here); He learns that Goku traveled through time and that Trunks was responsible, making him even more obsessed with Goku and angry at the mortals; He kills Gowasu and continues his plan; He realizes there's no more Goku in his timeline, and is forced to go back to the past in order to change bodies; He goes to the past somehow (probably using the Super Dragon Balls); He then wishes to change bodies with Goku, and kills him and his family (since it's the past, Goku didn't know Black, and that's why he is so surprised to see somebody with his appearance); Black goes to the future timeline to get his "revenge" on Trunks. This would also explain why Black isn't as strong as Goku during their first fight (his "version" of Goku is the one which didn't have the Godly ki transformations yet).