Is this arc really ruined?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Black_Liger
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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by Black_Liger » Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:13 pm

No, specially because there are just a lot of people that were hating the series and only watched this episode because of Vegito, and didn't even care to watch it subbed... you can actually tell because they complain about the very same things that were explained in this episode. Like the fusion time limit, Vegito was just toying with buu, hence why his fusion lasted the whole hour, but now that he went blue and was evenly matched he used too much energy the fusion wore off sooner, that's what also happened to ssj3 gotenks... sometimes dbz fanbase seems to not be able to think at all... What can you expect from people who complain that Goku gets all the kills, then complain again when he doesn't. And HELL TRUNKS DESERVED THAT KILL MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE.

All in all, flawed like every db product, this arc is my favorite along with Frieza Arc in the whole franchise!.
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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by Muffin Man » Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:55 am

Saikyo no Senshi wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Whether or not the fandom is satIsfied is irrelevant. In fact, the vast majority are willing to eat up whatever DBS gives them.

I want it to be enjoyable without constant inconsistencies, plot holes, retcons, etc. It's not that hard to deliver, Marvel even does it better than Dragon Ball at this point. Yes, Marvel, the universe that is literally infamous for being full of contrivances. The Walking Dead does it, and it's the most basic of the basic levels of episodic storytelling. You can enjoy it if you want, but Dragon Ball Super is not good, it's not even average.
These plotholes, retcons, battle power inconsistencies you speak of never interfere with my enjoyment.

Super is average? Agreed. Plot wise, it is no better or worse than the original series( Z included). It is an average battle shounen series with cool moments sprinkled here and there that provides entertainment to kids. That's it. That's what I've always thought Dragon Ball is. Super is doing the same and I think it is doing it successfully.
It must have done something out of the ordinary to get you posting hundreds of posts about it on a dedicated message board though. Unless you just like spending time on message boards for every property you consider average.

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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:45 am

Muffin Man wrote: It must have done something out of the ordinary to get you posting hundreds of posts about it on a dedicated message board though. Unless you just like spending time on message boards for every property you consider average.
Yep. I think the music(Kikuchi) and voice acting from the Japanese cast is extraordinary even though the plot is nothing special which is why I like talking about it and this is the only forum where people know how to have discussions respectfully, not all of them but at least most of them.

Also, the production side of things have always interested me and I can learn more about it from some of the knowledgeable people here. That's another reason why I often visit and post here cause sadly some of the other series which I think destroys Dragon Ball in every department don't have a Kanzenshuu-type forum and places that do discuss those series are vitriolic as hell.

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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:31 am

Saikyo no Senshi wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Keep your opinions, I'm not going to excuse mediocrity.
Fair enough. I'm not going to expect great storytelling at a regular basis from an average battle shounen.
I don't think anybody expects that from Dragon Ball. Most people know what Dragon Ball is, a dumb series for kids with a couple of great portions and some shit ones, that can be enjoyed be everyone. Some people just want more then what Super is doing for them. Nothing wrong with that.
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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by buutenks » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:31 am

I really enjoyed the arc. Zamasu/Goku Black has become my favorite villain. And the finale of Zamasu was epic. Made me cry.

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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by Araki » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:00 pm

dbs fanboy wrote:I really appreciate your comments, i was really confused about wht to feel right now with all th
You shouldn't let other people dictate what you think about anything. Just a friendly advice.

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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by SsjCookie » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:34 pm

Black_Liger wrote:No, specially because there are just a lot of people that were hating the series and only watched this episode because of Vegito, and didn't even care to watch it subbed... you can actually tell because they complain about the very same things that were explained in this episode. Like the fusion time limit, Vegito was just toying with buu, hence why his fusion lasted the whole hour, but now that he went blue and was evenly matched he used too much energy the fusion wore off sooner, that's what also happened to ssj3 gotenks... sometimes dbz fanbase seems to not be able to think at all... What can you expect from people who complain that Goku gets all the kills, then complain again when he doesn't. And HELL TRUNKS DESERVED THAT KILL MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE.

All in all, flawed like every db product, this arc is my favorite along with Frieza Arc in the whole franchise!.

THANK YOU, finally someone with some common sense.
I enjoyed this arc even despite its flaws, and is also my second favourite after the Frieza saga .
The defusion of Vegito was explained by Gowasu in the last episode so it made perfect sense, why are people complaining?
Even Trunks seemingly unexplained knowledge of the spirit bomb could easily be brought back to the time where he trained with the supreme Kai.
I imagine he learned that technique from him since the supreme Kai is more powerful than King Kai. (plot hole solved)
And why should Trunks learning the Mafuba through a video tutorial in 5 minutes be any different than Goku learning the Kamehameha by only seeing it once?

The only downside I can think of is that it was somewhat rushed at the end, it could easily have fitted 3 more episodes before the finale.
Other than that, I loved it!

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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by shinmaru » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:43 pm

I'm thinking that the show is getting better and better. The animation is a lot better and SFX are placed much better than before.
The known animators haven't really drawn Dragon Ball intensely for 18 years, so who knows, maybe this arc was just a warmup :D

The only downside for me is that the story's pace goes too fast with the important stuff and the character's attitude are changed a little.

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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by Faisal Shourov » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:22 pm

If you ignore the butthurt power scaling fanboys, this arc was pretty good. Certainly better than Buu Saga. It's also the first proper arc in DBS which is actually worth watching and not a waste of time. So apart from powerscaling bullshit, this arc is not bad. Not saying it's good but nowhere near the worst arc in Dragon Ball
Toyotarō: … I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama: Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by Lujin_16 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:39 pm

Here a review for episode 66 from IGN http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/11/15/ ... ora-review

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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by Shinomori » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:37 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Shinomori wrote:This might be a personal opinion, but I wasn't impressed with the overall story of this arc. I know they are developing stories as they go along, but I would like to see more thought and reasoning in these arcs. For instance, it's obvious the creators wanted to bring Future Trunks back, but why did Zamasu go to Trunks' timeline specifically to wreak havoc? There's no reasoning behind that other than just to bring Trunks back into the fold. That's lame in my opinion. If that was all they wanted to do, they could have just had Trunks come back to the present for a visit. I would have accepted that perfectly fine and been just as excited to see him. Ultimately, I just didn't care about the character Zamasu one bit. His story wasn't impressive and man was he a total prick.

In the end, it wasn't this episode that did it, but the story overall that makes this arc bad. I don't know why people are thinking this next episode will make things better. This arc is officially finished with Zamasu's "death". (Part of him is still immortal)
They actually gave a pretty good reason as why they went to Trunks timeline.

"The two accuse Trunks of violating the gods’ taboo against time travel; the new Time Ring created when he changed the past is proof of his guilt. Goku should have died from his heart virus; it was Trunks changing history to save him that enabled Zamasu to steal his body in the first place. Everything is therefore his fault! They will cleanse the world of his sins by eliminating him and all Earthlings!"
That's not so much a reason for him going to the Trunks timeline. He didn't even know Trunks had a time machine (as we seen his original reactions to seeing it), so why should I buy that as the ultimate excuse for him going to the future timeline to make Trunks pay for his "sins". It's bad story writing. They should have implied this in the very first episode. Instead of having Black say "Today is the day you die saiyan" he should have said "Today is the day you answer for your sins" or something to that effect, with more build up when they fought for the first time.

The way this comes off, it seems more like Black went to Trunks' future by happenchance. Which if he only went a maximum of two years into the future, he would even be in Trunks timeline anyway. I believe Trunks' timeline is many years into the future, and by the way is only one timeline of many possible timelines.

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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by Shinomori » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:57 am

SsjCookie wrote:

THANK YOU, finally someone with some common sense.
I enjoyed this arc even despite its flaws, and is also my second favourite after the Frieza saga .
The defusion of Vegito was explained by Gowasu in the last episode so it made perfect sense, why are people complaining?
Even Trunks seemingly unexplained knowledge of the spirit bomb could easily be brought back to the time where he trained with the supreme Kai.
I imagine he learned that technique from him since the supreme Kai is more powerful than King Kai. (plot hole solved)
And why should Trunks learning the Mafuba through a video tutorial in 5 minutes be any different than Goku learning the Kamehameha by only seeing it once?

The only downside I can think of is that it was somewhat rushed at the end, it could easily have fitted 3 more episodes before the finale.
Other than that, I loved it!
I can tell you the explanation they gave for the defusion thing was un-inspirational. First of all, Z implied the reason they defused had something to do with being inside Buu, a magical creature in his own right. When Vegito dropped the barrier, that is when it happened. So for the story tellers of Super, why didn't they construct something that played along those lines to be consistent? The time limit thing with fusion has been done, so it was just a lazy explanation in my opinion when they could have played on a better one dealing with some kind of interference with Buu. The Kaioshins knew who Buu was, so Gowasu could have said something along those lines despite him being from universe 10. What really adds on to the time limit being a bad retcon is it flies in the face of the Elder Kaioshin. How is it he didn't know of this time limit on the Potara of non-god fusion? Why didn't he tell this information to Goku in DBZ? (Of course we know it's added information and was left open ended in DBZ, but it highlights how bad of a retcon this is)

With the Trunks Spirit Bomb, yeah he could have learned it through the Kaioshins and Kais, but why are we left to fill these holes? It's bad storytelling. Now in the next episode, Trunks could tell us how he knew of the technique, but as we know from dealing with the series so far, we probably won't get an explanation. Just like we won't get an explanation to Trunks demi-god form, at least at the moment. They might explain Trunks' transformation in another arc, with one of the other half saiyans achieving it.

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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:40 am

Faisal Shourov wrote:If you ignore the butthurt power scaling fanboys, this arc was pretty good. Certainly better than Buu Saga. It's also the first proper arc in DBS which is actually worth watching and not a waste of time. So apart from powerscaling bullshit, this arc is not bad. Not saying it's good but nowhere near the worst arc in Dragon Ball
Hello there my good mate please allow me to disagree with all your points lol

- There is also the characters inconsistencies and big dumb Goku, unneeded retcons such as Goku having never kissed or the Potara for direct examples at the top of my head lol
- People can hate the Buu arc all they want it had an awesome character development, being both on Buu and M. Satan not even mentioning Vegeta, we got SSJ3 which IMO was awesome, Goku vs Vegeta fighting as SSJ2 and it lasted for more than the usual 20 secs we get in Super, all in all the arc had the time to breathe, elaborate and build much higher stakes and tension simply because of the numbers of episodes it has lol
- Funny that I also disagree with you here, as I think all arcs of Super are more or less good from the big picture, and the Champa arc is certainly worth watching lol
- I would say it's a good arc despite all the nonsense and botched scenes that goes beyond mere power scaling mate, I would say it's definitely worth a watch if you don't care on all the major stuff that's crucial to the series lol

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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:28 pm

The way things ended were questionable to me, but it was still the best in in Super for me. "Worst arc in Dragon Ball" is quite an exaggeration to me.

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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:52 pm

Man, this ending is going to ruffle a lot of people's jammies. It's gotta be one of the most hot-and-cold endings I've ever seen to a story.

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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by Yomi » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:54 pm

Welp, the Villian won and those cute kids died, other-world was also erased so, they're really dead.
And now Goku will probably never use that button again.

It was a huge Curveball and a Nerf to the Z-fighters.
"you protected these smiles" bleh... just doesn't feel right that Zamasu killed them all.
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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by Cetra » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:55 pm

Well if it is left like that then it definitely will not get any additional points. But the rest was to my liking.

Gladly I did not ignore the Beerus split that now is also mentioned in the anime itself.
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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by Bullza » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:59 pm

I haven't actually seen how it ended but if it ended as I think it did based on what people are saying then it is sorta ruined this time.

Are Trunks and Mai staying in the main timeline now? That was something I kinda wanted at first, I'm not sure so much now. If their entire world and universe was destroyed....they saved nobody anyway....what was the point in everything that happened? Trunks and Mai could have come to the future back in Episode 47 and that'd be the arc.

They accomplished nothing.

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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:13 pm

Bullza wrote:I haven't actually seen how it ended but if it ended as I think it did based on what people are saying then it is sorta ruined this time.

Are Trunks and Mai staying in the main timeline now? That was something I kinda wanted at first, I'm not sure so much now. If their entire world and universe was destroyed....they saved nobody anyway....what was the point in everything that happened? Trunks and Mai could have come to the future back in Episode 47 and that'd be the arc.

They accomplished nothing.
The ending is incredibly bittersweet. Zamasu is dead, Future Trunk and Mai are alive and will forever live in peace but their world and everyone on it is gone.

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Re: Is this arc really ruined?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:14 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Bullza wrote:I haven't actually seen how it ended but if it ended as I think it did based on what people are saying then it is sorta ruined this time.

Are Trunks and Mai staying in the main timeline now? That was something I kinda wanted at first, I'm not sure so much now. If their entire world and universe was destroyed....they saved nobody anyway....what was the point in everything that happened? Trunks and Mai could have come to the future back in Episode 47 and that'd be the arc.

They accomplished nothing.
The ending is incredibly bittersweet. Zamasu is dead, Future Trunk and Mai are alive and will forever live in peace but their world and everyone on it is gone.
But the timeline they went to was never occupied by Zamasu, so everyone is (sort of) alive again.
Retired.

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