Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by Cipher » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:55 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Mad Men? Really? I mean, it's a great show, but it's never gotten me close to shedding tears even in its final episodes. And yeah, I consider that episode a magnum opus pure because no other episode of the Dragon Ball anime franchise has gripped me and made me feel as emotional watching it as that episode did. I legit had tears rolling down my eyes when episode ended. It was just devastating.
I straight-up ugly-cried during its final two episodes.

Super had me going this week, but it was a lot more composed in comparison.

I don't think it's the best episode or arc in the meta-series; far from it. But it is, as far as I can recall, the only Dragon Ball episode to actually draw tears from me.

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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:44 am

A lot of people hate the ending because they think it makes the arc seem like a waste of time, but I actually disagree. Zamasu was the only threat that was actually out of their control and they couldn't handle him. If this ending was what people expected, Zamasu would have probably died from the Kamehameha/Galic Gun/Final Flash combo (which I didn't like at all, it looked very cheesy) killing Zamasu would have been lame, considering how week they were at the time. Though I think Zamasu merging with the Universe itself was what made it impossible to beat him. It was clear that the characters were written into a corner by making him physically untouchable.

However, the problem I had with the ending was not from the fact that they failed, but from the odd way the ending sentiments were presented. I thought it was really weird up how Trunks cried in the end saying he wasn't able to save the future while all the rest of the cast (except Gohan) were all happy and celebratory ignoring the fact that Trunks just lost everything and all his struggles were invalidated. They presented us with a dark ending that they confusingly tried to play off as a happy one.The ending would have been better if the tone wasn't so positive despite the fact that everyone that was cheering for Trunks to win was obliterated in an instant. It bothers me because when Buu killed all the humans, the cast was concerned, and when Buu blew up the earth, thats when it sunk in that they failed big-time. This ending seemed pretty selfish and almost creepy of everyone to not at least mourning the losses. Though I do agree with Beerus, on then relying too much on them now. Its probably why the cast seems like they're getting lazy now.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by precita » Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:59 am

Goku and Vegeta literally don't know what its like to live in Trunks' timeline, so of course they wouldn't be as angry/sad as Trunks was. (not to mention it would probably be a bit out of character for them)

Trunks and Mai are the only two from that timeline, so naturally they would be the most affected by it.

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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by HeroR » Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:29 am

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:A lot of people hate the ending because they think it makes the arc seem like a waste of time, but I actually disagree. Zamasu was the only threat that was actually out of their control and they couldn't handle him. If this ending was what people expected, Zamasu would have probably died from the Kamehameha/Galic Gun/Final Flash combo (which I didn't like at all, it looked very cheesy) killing Zamasu would have been lame, considering how week they were at the time. Though I think Zamasu merging with the Universe itself was what made it impossible to beat him. It was clear that the characters were written into a corner by making him physically untouchable.

However, the problem I had with the ending was not from the fact that they failed, but from the odd way the ending sentiments were presented. I thought it was really weird up how Trunks cried in the end saying he wasn't able to save the future while all the rest of the cast (except Gohan) were all happy and celebratory ignoring the fact that Trunks just lost everything and all his struggles were invalidated. They presented us with a dark ending that they confusingly tried to play off as a happy one.The ending would have been better if the tone wasn't so positive despite the fact that everyone that was cheering for Trunks to win was obliterated in an instant. It bothers me because when Buu killed all the humans, the cast was concerned, and when Buu blew up the earth, thats when it sunk in that they failed big-time. This ending seemed pretty selfish and almost creepy of everyone to not at least mourning the losses. Though I do agree with Beerus, on then relying too much on them now. Its probably why the cast seems like they're getting lazy now.
Goku and Vegeta were upset about Buu because their sons were also killed. While in the future timeline, while they may mourn for those people, it wasn't their world. To them, their family and friends are alive, and the people they really bonded with, Future Trunks and Mai, are alive and Zamasu was stopped. Plus, Trunks leaving takes place days after the fact where everyone had time to mourn, while Buu was literally seconds after the fact.

The tone was positive because it shows that despite the bad thing that has happened, Trunks and Mai decides to move on with hope and start a new life, even if it isn't with the people they tried to save. They chose to be positive and not moping.

And Beerus is a hypocrite since the gods started the entire mess with Gowasu chose Zamasu and telling him about the Super Dragon Balls (which are the gods Dragon Balls). It was the future gods being asleep at the wheel that allowed Goku Black and Future Zamasu to murder all the Supreme Kais. So it's silly to pretend that this was the mortals' mess and it was their duty to clean it up.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by Mazingerdestro » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:03 am

66-67 were both great. Maybe a little bit too mature for the average fan and thats the reason there are mixed feelings.
In general Toei treated us as adults and as a result younger fans got mad

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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by Cetra » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:08 am

Do I not like how Alternate Bulma is dead? Yes. But apart from that everything is great. The actually relevant person did survive and that was Trunks.
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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by PsionicWarrior » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:22 am

Mazingerdestro wrote:66-67 were both great. Maybe a little bit too mature for the average fan and thats the reason there are mixed feelings.
In general Toei treated us as adults and as a result younger fans got mad
The way I see it 66 was everything on the fireworks and fuck logic, not really sure directed at "more mature fans" lol
67 was a very particular final, I might have been disturbed about it if I were a kid, hell I'm disturbed about it now lol

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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by Gig » Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:05 am

ChiefWamsutta wrote: 5) Goku's choice to bring the Future Omni-King to meet Present Omni-King was fucking brilliant. He legitimately could have just succeeded in protecting his timeline from random destruction at any point,
Someone else already said something similar to you...

However, I don't see why this should actually protect the existence of the timeline....
Probably Omni-king will be a good friend to himself, and the two may be happier than before, yes... but they still are like childs with infinite destructive power, which may use it to wipe out everything without a real reason (e.g. wikiping out everything due to Zamasu faces in the sky being annoying was "overkill"... and I can guess that also wiping out 6 universes was not a necessary thing). Why do you think one would stop the other one from doing something bad?
Also, kids, like adults, sometimes do argue. Now imagine Zeno arguing with himself (e.g. due to "I lost at playing this game! You cheater!")... do you imagine possible results?

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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by HeroR » Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:14 am

Mazingerdestro wrote:66-67 were both great. Maybe a little bit too mature for the average fan and thats the reason there are mixed feelings.
In general Toei treated us as adults and as a result younger fans got mad
I sorta have mix feeling on 66. Mostly the random Spirit Bomb Trunks form. I love what it symbolized and it's a fitting end for Merged Zamasu's physical body, but how the hell did Trunks form it? We don't even get a have wave explanation. Honestly, that is the only real thing that bugs me because I don't really care what Trunks' super form is called or Vegetto only lasted a few minutes (I didn't want him at all). That and Trunks did learn the Evil Containment Wave faster than he should, but I chose believe that since Mai was there he didn't need perfect aim. And the gag with Piccolo being recording made that entire scene worth it.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:08 pm

HeroR wrote:
Mazingerdestro wrote:66-67 were both great. Maybe a little bit too mature for the average fan and thats the reason there are mixed feelings.
In general Toei treated us as adults and as a result younger fans got mad
I sorta have mix feeling on 66. Mostly the random Spirit Bomb Trunks form. I love what it symbolized and it's a fitting end for Merged Zamasu's physical body, but how the hell did Trunks form it? We don't even get a have wave explanation. Honestly, that is the only real thing that bugs me because I don't really care what Trunks' super form is called or Vegetto only lasted a few minutes (I didn't want him at all). That and Trunks did learn the Evil Containment Wave faster than he should, but I chose believe that since Mai was there he didn't need perfect aim. And the gag with Piccolo being recording made that entire scene worth it.
The Genki Dama scene was certainly quite unusual, to say the very least. My guess is that the technique relies on the willingness of people spiritually in regards to how much energy is gathered. It's not necessarily down on a single person collecting all the energy of living thing, but if there is enough people who are mentally and spiritually united by one cause, which is that case would be hoping Future Trunks will defeat Merged Zamasu, then a Genki Dama can form on its own. And when it gets large enough, it innately gathers any energy from other living being such as animals trees, flowers etc.

That's the best explanation I can come up with for an incredibly awesome but incredibly nonsensical scene.

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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by HeroR » Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:14 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: The Genki Dama scene was certainly quite unusual, to say the very least. My guess is that the technique relies on the willingness of people spiritually in regards to how much energy is gathered. It's not necessarily down on a single person collecting all the energy of living thing, but if there is enough people who are mentally and spiritually united by one cause, which is that case would be hoping Future Trunks will defeat Merged Zamasu, then a Genki Dama can form on its own. And when it gets large enough, it innately gathers any energy from other living being such as animals trees, flowers etc.

That's the best explanation I can come up with for an incredibly awesome but incredibly nonsensical scene.
I do like that explanation and it makes it all the more bitter that all that hope was viciously lost in the end. Which is why I am willingly to forgive the unknown Spirit Bomb. The narrative behind it is just that powerful. If only they foreshadowed it.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:23 pm

HeroR wrote:Goku and Vegeta were upset about Buu because their sons were also killed. While in the future timeline, while they may mourn for those people, it wasn't their world. To them, their family and friends are alive, and the people they really bonded with, Future Trunks and Mai, are alive and Zamasu was stopped. Plus, Trunks leaving takes place days after the fact where everyone had time to mourn, while Buu was literally seconds after the fact.
I know they care more about their direct relationships than random people, but it almost blurs why they bothered to help Trunks at all. Thats the overall problem with Super.
HeroR wrote:The tone was positive because it shows that despite the bad thing that has happened, Trunks and Mai decides to move on with hope and start a new life, even if it isn't with the people they tried to save. They chose to be positive and not moping.
It really doesn't make sense to why they needed to leave though. Or how that is some sort of solution.
HeroR wrote:And Beerus is a hypocrite since the gods started the entire mess with Gowasu chose Zamasu and telling him about the Super Dragon Balls (which are the gods Dragon Balls). It was the future gods being asleep at the wheel that allowed Goku Black and Future Zamasu to murder all the Supreme Kais. So it's silly to pretend that this was the mortals' mess and it was their duty to clean it up.
Not really. The Gods generally don't interfere with anything horrific they see, they just accept the facts of it as apart of history. While I honestly think the only reason Beerus was apathetic was because they didn't want to use him or imply Zamasu to be stronger than him if he were to lose for the sake of the plot.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by HeroR » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:38 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:
HeroR wrote:Goku and Vegeta were upset about Buu because their sons were also killed. While in the future timeline, while they may mourn for those people, it wasn't their world. To them, their family and friends are alive, and the people they really bonded with, Future Trunks and Mai, are alive and Zamasu was stopped. Plus, Trunks leaving takes place days after the fact where everyone had time to mourn, while Buu was literally seconds after the fact.
I know they care more about their direct relationships than random people, but it almost blurs why they bothered to help Trunks at all. Thats the overall problem with Super.
HeroR wrote:The tone was positive because it shows that despite the bad thing that has happened, Trunks and Mai decides to move on with hope and start a new life, even if it isn't with the people they tried to save. They chose to be positive and not moping.
It really doesn't make sense to why they needed to leave though. Or how that is some sort of solution.
HeroR wrote:And Beerus is a hypocrite since the gods started the entire mess with Gowasu chose Zamasu and telling him about the Super Dragon Balls (which are the gods Dragon Balls). It was the future gods being asleep at the wheel that allowed Goku Black and Future Zamasu to murder all the Supreme Kais. So it's silly to pretend that this was the mortals' mess and it was their duty to clean it up.
Not really. The Gods generally don't interfere with anything horrific they see, they just accept the facts of it as apart of history. While I honestly think the only reason Beerus was apathetic was because they didn't want to use him or imply Zamasu to be stronger than him if he were to lose for the sake of the plot.
They bothered to help Trunks because Trunks was their friend who helped them in the past. So they went through hell to help Trunks. Everyone else was a bonus, not that they didn't care about the survivors. They clearly did given how upset they were when the realized that Merged Zamasu killed everyone.

It's a imperfect solution to a shitty problem. Mai wants to be near the ones she fought so hard to protect, even if they're not exactly the same people. Trunks decides to go with her to rebuild.

Beerus is a hypocrite because he's blaming the mortals for not being able to handle the problem, when the problem itself originality from the gods. If they gods kept their own system in check, none of the events would have happened. This isn't like Freeza who was an evil mortal killing other mortals. This was a god who murdered the other gods and took over Zen'o's position as the top god for a number of years.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by Legion » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:42 pm

Actually the Gods have interfered, since that:

Beerus and Whis have investigated about Zamasu.
Beerus killed present Zamasu.
Gowasu/Supreme Kai go to the future to help Goku etc.

And the manga is also better on this.

In the future, the Gods did nothing because they are...dead. Anyway, in general, i think that Beerus is right about that mortals relying too much on them now. Just see the manga.
Beerus is a hypocrite because he's blaming the mortals for not being able to handle the problem
Beerus only said to Whis to not create another timeline, he didn't blaming anything.
Last edited by Legion on Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by HeroR » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:55 pm

Legion wrote:Actually the Gods have interfered, since that:

Beerus and Whis have investigated about Zamasu.
Beerus killed present Zamasu.
Gowasu/Supreme Kai go to the future to help Goku etc.

And the manga is also better on this.

In the future, the Gods did nothing because they are...dead. Anyway, in general, i think that Beerus is right about that mortals relying too much on them now. Just see the manga.
The manga and the anime are not the same continuity, so let's get that out the way.

And the situation was started by the gods. Gowasu chose Zamasu, he told him about the Super Dragon Balls (which are the gods' Dragon Balls), he used the Kais' Time Ring, and Zamasu used the Super Dragon Balls to take Goku's body when he had no way to defending himself against it. The future gods were then collectively caught flatfooted by Black and Future Zamasu and got themselves killed.

To say that mortals relied on the gods too much when it was the gods' failure that led to the situation is hypocritical.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by Legion » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:02 pm

HeroR wrote:
Legion wrote:Actually the Gods have interfered, since that:

Beerus and Whis have investigated about Zamasu.
Beerus killed present Zamasu.
Gowasu/Supreme Kai go to the future to help Goku etc.

And the manga is also better on this.

In the future, the Gods did nothing because they are...dead. Anyway, in general, i think that Beerus is right about that mortals relying too much on them now. Just see the manga.
The manga and the anime are not the same continuity, so let's get that out the way.

And the situation was started by the gods. Gowasu chose Zamasu, he told him about the Super Dragon Balls (which are the gods' Dragon Balls), he used the Kais' Time Ring, and Zamasu used the Super Dragon Balls to take Goku's body when he had no way to defending himself against it. The future gods were then collectively caught flatfooted by Black and Future Zamasu and got themselves killed.

To say that mortals relied on the gods too much when it was the gods' failure that led to the situation is hypocritical.
Yes, the Gods (also, only Zamasu, but whatever) started this mess, but this not change what i said. Beerus, Whis and Kaioshin helped Goku etc.

Then, obviously, for plot, Zamasu/Black he could not be killed/defeated by Beerus or Whis lol

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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by HeroR » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:04 pm

Legion wrote: Yes, the Gods (also, only Zamasu, but whatever) started this mess, but this not change what i said. Beerus, Whis and Kaioshin helped Goku etc.

Then, obviously, for plot, Zamasu/Black he could not be killed/defeated by Beerus or Whis lol
Helped cleaned up some of the mess they made. It was the very least they could do.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by Doctor. » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:10 pm

Cipher wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Mad Men? Really? I mean, it's a great show, but it's never gotten me close to shedding tears even in its final episodes. And yeah, I consider that episode a magnum opus pure because no other episode of the Dragon Ball anime franchise has gripped me and made me feel as emotional watching it as that episode did. I legit had tears rolling down my eyes when episode ended. It was just devastating.
I straight-up ugly-cried during its final two episodes.

Super had me going this week, but it was a lot more composed in comparison.

I don't think it's the best episode or arc in the meta-series; far from it. But it is, as far as I can recall, the only Dragon Ball episode to actually draw tears from me.
Not even GT 64?

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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by dbs fanboy » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:49 pm

Honestly, this ending was so damn good (even thought it broke me), that it makes the other episodes of the arc feel different, i mean, i find it hilarious how in the last episodes Trunks was repeating the same thing a lot: "Gods don't make the future, mortals do" or "don't underestimate the mortals", you know, things like that.

In fact, ep 66 feels different as well, and i'm starting to think that Toei made that final scene with the spirit sword on purpose to shock us even more. Just think about it, this would be my reaction if i was a casual fan and watched the two episodes in the same day.

#66: "Awwww he's using defeating the villain with the power of love, hope and frienship, that's beautiful"
#67: "What?, that's it, everyone died, but what about the happy ending"?
And now i can't watch any scene from past episodes without thinking "hahhahahah you'r all going to die :lolno: "

Honestly i thought that this ending would get more praise in the comment section (youtube) because, well, not only Goku isn't the one to save the day, but death is relevant, and the good guys failed, making this arc tragic because the future was doomed from the beginning (hell, i even appreciate more Vegetto's brief appearance because with him, the super fighters literally tried everything to win).
But oh well fuck me super is just a predictable series that hasn't ever done anything right, i suppose.
Last edited by dbs fanboy on Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I really miss ma boy, Black :( :cry:


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Re: Why I LOVED DBS Episode 67

Post by Fionordequester » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:52 pm

dbs fanboy wrote:Honestly, this ending was so damn good (even thought it broke me), that it makes the other episodes of the arc feel different, i mean, i find it hilarious how in the last episodes Trunks was repeating the same thing a lot: "Gods don't make the future, mortals do" or "don't underestimate the mortals", you know, things like that.

In fact, ep 66 feels different as well, and i'm starting to think that Toei made that final scene with the spirit sword on purpose to shock us even more. Just think about it, this would be my reaction if i was a casual fan and watched the two episodes in the same day.

#66: "Awwww he's using defeating the villain with the power of love, hope and frienship, that's beautiful"
#67: "What?, that's it, everyone died, but what about the happy ending"?
And now i can't watch any scene from past episodes without thinking "hahhahahah you'r all going to die :lolno: "

Honestly i thought that this ending would get more praise in the comment section (youtube) because, well, not only Goku isn't the one to save the day, but death is relevant, and they fail making this arc tragic because the future was doomed (hell, i even appreciate more Vegetto's brief appaearance because with him, the super fighters literally tried everything to win).
But oh well fuck me super is just a predictable series that hasn't ever done anything right, i suppose.
Wait...so did you like the episode? The first half of your post gives me the impression that you liked it, but the end of your post gives me the impression that you dislike it.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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