What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:04 am

lunaticthegame wrote:I think we should deduce that at least 50% of his details are very vague. It's like if you wanted to know the plot to the Marvel Cinematic Universe but in under 15 minutes. I will just give you the major plot bulletins and go on with my day.

I'm not a person to call Toei lazy or stupid with Dragon Ball Super but Toyotora (Hope I got it right) has more of an understanding of Dragon Ball then they do right now. Though they've changed a few things with Dragon Ball Super (It feels more like the original Dragon Ball and they're starting to take on new anime customs), they seem to fail with some of the smaller detail that hardcore fans seem to never let go of like a 5 year old child or something.

Toyotora was one of those fans and so he tries to write things in the most sense.
His name's Toyotaro. You could call him Toyo or Toyble instead.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:17 am

How you reached the conclusion that Toriyama's drafts cover that much? Couldn't the anime staff use the manga as a base and alter minor details? Goku never kissing, for example, how we know it came from Toriyama?

And, "not even 10%" doesn't equate to 10%. :eh:

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by OLKv3 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:24 am

Goku is stronger than Vegeta by the number 10 in the Hit fight and surprises everyone by bringing back an old red form. The anime used KaioKen x10, the manga used the whole "Vegeta couldn't use even 1/10th of his power!" so SSG could return

Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks fail against Black on their first trip and need Trunks to save them. The anime had Trunks pull a new power out of his ass and didn't even explain how Trunks survived a desperate 2 on 1 situation, the manga used Mai and Trunks teamwork along with the Kais showing how Trunks survives.

The rest are pretty obvious

Also, isn't everyone forgetting that Hit was holding back on SSJ Goku because Goku triggered his fighting sense/competitive nature? The anime showed that off better but the line about Hit acting unnatural and how Goku has that affect on people was also in the manga

Because Goku started talking about how he could counter the time skip, Hit played along to see if it was true, then he became cocky/playful with the "I'll just slowly increase every punch, see if you dodge that :)" along with Goku's boasts. He was trying to slowly force him to go Blue so he could pridefully say "see you were wrong"
The anime handled this by having Hit have Goku at his mercy, and actually letting him stand up and try again instead of going for the easy OHKO. The manga had him shocked at how much power Goku really had when he went SSG and the whole "I underestimated him!"

I thought that was good writing.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:10 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:How you reached the conclusion that Toriyama's drafts cover that much? Couldn't the anime staff use the manga as a base and alter minor details?
What manga? The one that was yet to be released?

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:15 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:How you reached the conclusion that Toriyama's drafts cover that much? Couldn't the anime staff use the manga as a base and alter minor details?
What manga? The one that was yet to be released?
Toyotaro's manga. Even if the chapters are published later the anime staff should have access to their content in the middle of the process.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:37 am

Hugo Boss wrote:Even if the chapters are published later the anime staff should have access to their content in the middle of the process.
What content? Both projects are developed alongside each other.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:45 am

Luso Saiyan wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Even if the chapters are published later the anime staff should have access to their content in the middle of the process.
What content? Both projects are developed alongside each other.
Do you mind providing a source for that? And how that would prevent the staffs of sharing the content among themselves? I say this because I work on a department involving publishing normative acts and the stakeholders have access to the content even before it becomes a thing.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:33 pm

I wonder if Toriyama's outlines had something like "Give Trunks a bizarre new form out of left field."

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by Ki Breaker » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:36 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:I wonder if Toriyama's outlines had something like "Give Trunks a bizarre new form out of left field."
Asking the real questions here
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by TheMikado » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:07 pm

Ki Breaker wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:I wonder if Toriyama's outlines had something like "Give Trunks a bizarre new form out of left field."
Asking the real questions here
But we already have the answer. SSJ2 Super Trunks and SSJ Rage... it's obvious but didn't matter how, just throw it in there

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by TheMikado » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:08 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Luso Saiyan wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Even if the chapters are published later the anime staff should have access to their content in the middle of the process.
What content? Both projects are developed alongside each other.
Do you mind providing a source for that? And how that would prevent the staffs of sharing the content among themselves? I say this because I work on a department involving publishing normative acts and the stakeholders have access to the content even before it becomes a thing.
I think Toyotaro in an interview stated they don't exhange much information but that he would start sending his work to the anime staff to work off of.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by ChronoTwigger » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:59 pm

We can deduce that any possible discussion will end by people arguing of power levels.
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by Ki Breaker » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:46 am

ChronoTwigger wrote:We can deduce that any possible discussion will end by people arguing of power levels.
If that's Implying fans have more power than Toriyama then that's wrong, toriyama absolutely dominates with your coming close second
I have toriyama at 1000 and toie is 500 fans being a puny 10..
Get your facts straight
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by Araki » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:59 am

Hugo Boss wrote:How you reached the conclusion that Toriyama's drafts cover that much? Couldn't the anime staff use the manga as a base and alter minor details? Goku never kissing, for example, how we know it came from Toriyama?

And, "not even 10%" doesn't equate to 10%. :eh:
Because the anime is the main product, not a manga adaptation. Using the manga as base would mean they're adapting Toyotaro's story and not Toriyama's.
Sure, there's a slight chance the kiss gag was someone else's idea (Toei? Toyotaro? Shueisha's room?) that somehow made its way into both versions, but it's logical to assume that whatever happens in both the anime and the manga, was in the original draft to begin - especially considering the fact we know Toriyama has been particularly protective of his gags only, so it's the kind of thing i guess he wouldn't like if either version skipped/changed it.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by Basako » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:01 am

Araki wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:How you reached the conclusion that Toriyama's drafts cover that much? Couldn't the anime staff use the manga as a base and alter minor details? Goku never kissing, for example, how we know it came from Toriyama?

And, "not even 10%" doesn't equate to 10%. :eh:
Because the anime is the main product, not a manga adaptation. Using the manga as base would mean they're adapting Toyotaro's story and not Toriyama's.
Sure, there's a slight chance the kiss gag was someone else's idea (Toei? Toyotaro? Shueisha's room?) that somehow made its way into both versions, but it's logical to assume that whatever happens in both the anime and the manga, was in the original draft to begin - especially considering the fact we know Toriyama has been particularly protective of his gags only, so it's the kind of thing i guess he wouldn't like if either version skipped/changed it.
I'm not sure about that, Toyotaro specificly said that he's been receiving information from Toei in the Zamasu arc and that it would be the other way around in the future. Toyotaro may have been including the ideas from Toei that he liked.

To answer the question of the topic, what can we deduce about Toriyama's drafts. With certainty nothing. For example, how could we know he didn't write Trunks made the Mafuba instead of Goku? We just can't know, although I very highly suspect that came from Toei, but impossible to know. We can't be sure either what comes just from Toyotaro. He said he has more freedom for the gags, but we can't know exactly which. We sometimes have access to little information about Toriyama's drafts, we do know that Black using the yellow and the rose came from him.
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by ChronoTwigger » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:12 am

Ki Breaker wrote:
ChronoTwigger wrote:We can deduce that any possible discussion will end by people arguing of power levels.
If that's Implying fans have more power than Toriyama then that's wrong, toriyama absolutely dominates with your coming close second
I have toriyama at 1000 and toie is 500 fans being a puny 10..
Get your facts straight
It was just a rant about how, lately, THIS VERY FORUM discussions turn all about power levels discrepancies, as this was the only point of the entire DB show: how much Goku is strong in relation to Vegeta.

To me those are sterile discussions: the exact power level scale introduced in Namek Arc was a plot device introduced to create tension, soon left as "if a>b so b>c" create instakill - instawin without any plot relevance (and you can see for yourself - any CREATIVITY in fight is now not perceived by fandom, so level 12000 can0t win against level 50000 by doing something smart).

What we deduce? That Toriyama want to create something engaging, doesn't mind of coherency, while kids want to collect card games where ATK 12 > DEF 10, and feel secure.
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:28 am

TheMikado wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Luso Saiyan wrote: What content? Both projects are developed alongside each other.
Do you mind providing a source for that? And how that would prevent the staffs of sharing the content among themselves? I say this because I work on a department involving publishing normative acts and the stakeholders have access to the content even before it becomes a thing.
I think Toyotaro in an interview stated they don't exhange much information but that he would start sending his work to the anime staff to work off of.
Actually, he said they always support each other, but at the time of Trunks Arc he was receiving more information from anime than giving to them. When he is ahead the information traffic is reversed.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/intervi ... ou/.107579
What is your relationship with the Dragon Ball Super anime?

At this point, I'm not very involved with it. I think going forward, I'll be more involved, but at this point in time, I actually receive more information from the anime team than I give to them. The anime is a little bit further along than I am, but in the near future I'll be ahead, so the information will be going back to them. Regardless, we'll continue to support one another as we go forward.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by Ki Breaker » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:23 am

ChronoTwigger wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote:
ChronoTwigger wrote:We can deduce that any possible discussion will end by people arguing of power levels.
If that's Implying fans have more power than Toriyama then that's wrong, toriyama absolutely dominates with your coming close second
I have toriyama at 1000 and toie is 500 fans being a puny 10..
Get your facts straight
It was just a rant about how, lately, THIS VERY FORUM discussions turn all about power levels discrepancies, as this was the only point of the entire DB show: how much Goku is strong in relation to Vegeta.

To me those are sterile discussions: the exact power level scale introduced in Namek Arc was a plot device introduced to create tension, soon left as "if a>b so b>c" create instakill - instawin without any plot relevance (and you can see for yourself - any CREATIVITY in fight is now not perceived by fandom, so level 12000 can0t win against level 50000 by doing something smart).

What we deduce? That Toriyama want to create something engaging, doesn't mind of coherency, while kids want to collect card games where ATK 12 > DEF 10, and feel secure.
Maybe you missed my intent..
It was to take your innocent post dumbing it into a power level discussion with nonsense numbers hence proving your point :thumbup:
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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by superfan2024 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:54 pm

I'm assuming that Goku using SSJ God instead of SSJB Kaioken during his fight with Hit in the manga was not in Toriyama's outline. In other words, I believe that Toriyama intended for Goku to use Kaioken during the tournament, not SSJ God. A transformation like the both of those were just too major and too different from one another for one of them not to be in Toriyama's outline. With this, i'm assuming that Toyotaro wanted to go a different route with which transformation he wanted to use. Toyo also stated that the manga was his own spin on Toriyama's outlines as Toyo made changes and filled in the gaps between what Toriyama wrote with his own ideas. It was also said somewhere that the anime was the definite story from Toriyama's outlines.

Or...

It's possible that Toriyama wrote that Vegeta would be much weaker than Goku in comparison towards their fights with Hit. Also, Goku would bring back a special red form that hasn't been seen for some time (either SSJ God or Kaioken).

All in all, i'm more inclined towards the first scenario.

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Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?

Post by superfan2024 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:55 pm

Here's what I think Toriyama's outlines are so far while comparing the manga's and anime's iteration of the Universal Survival Arc:

- Goku feels as though he is getting rusty due to lack of battle and/or training for some time so he decides to go train at Beerus' place.

- Eventually while training, Goku remembers about that tournament Zeno once talked about.

- Excited, and clueless of the dangers of Zeno, Goku goes against Beerus' orders as well as his warnings, and uses the button that Zeno gave him in the FT/Zamasu arc to teleport himself to Zeno's palace.

- Goku then reminds both Zeno's about the tournament, and things then escalate. A bit later, it's decided that an exhibition match before the tournament shall take place in order to give the future Zeno a "sneak peek" at what's to come. All the Supreme Kais, Angels, and Gods of Destructions are required to come.

- The contestants in this preliminary match are actually the Gods of Destruction! (Note: The sort of has two preliminary matches. The first one is the one with Goku, Gohan, and Buu vs the Trio de Dangers and takes place between episodes 78-81. This match is held in a separate arena not held in the actual tournament arena. The second one uses three of the Gods of Destructions battling themselves on the actual arena. I believe the second "preliminary match" was most likely the anime using the manga's battle, but to a watered/toned down version. The first preliminary match was most likely used by the anime to give viewers some Buu action because he will be asleep during the actual tournament.

Once more manga chapters arrive in the next few months, i'll update my predictions for Toriyama's outlines. What do you all think.

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