Is the Universe Survival Arc too Big for Super to Execute?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by Gog » Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:06 am

kinisking wrote:
pacz360 wrote:
Gog wrote:
If God allows it than yes. They will succeed
Then I hope to god your right.
kinisking wrote:I see a lot of disrespect for the author that brought us all together. He might be inconsistent, but calling him mediocre is just rude. He'd had amazing ideas and the fact that we're here proves that.
Of course he has good ideas But it depends on how he executes those ideas.
He executed it so well that millions of people world wide find themselves infatuated with the show.
I should know, we all should know that fact. Akira Toriyama's the greatest at execution. It's just, eh Toei

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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by sintzu » Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:08 am

Ki Breaker wrote: Hey, if they take their time this could be pulled off..
At least something closer to this
I think that would be too hard for any arc to pull off.

The only way this would work is if it was like Multiverse where the whole story was just the torunament.
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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by Ki Breaker » Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:25 am

sintzu wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote: Hey, if they take their time this could be pulled off..
At least something closer to this
I think that would be too hard for any arc to pull off.

The only way this would work is if it was like Multiverse where the whole story was just the torunament.
It's not like shows aren't capable of pulling long fights off, dbz is known to have super long fights, if they play their cards right, make characters talk, get expressions of faces right to indulge viewer and Power up is a big thing, long tournament fight's could be pulled off easily, the main ones get more time and the small fries get lesser time..
It could happen if there is a need to..
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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by sintzu » Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:37 am

Ki Breaker wrote:Long tournament fight's could be pulled off easily, the main ones get more time and the small fries get lesser time.
I think this is more or less what'll happen.

What I was saying is that giving EVERYONE involved (130+ characters) equal screen time wouldn't be possible unless the entire show was about this torunament.
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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by Ki Breaker » Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:46 am

sintzu wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote:Long tournament fight's could be pulled off easily, the main ones get more time and the small fries get lesser time.
I think this is more or less what'll happen.

What I was saying is that giving EVERYONE involved (130+ characters) equal screen time wouldn't be possible unless the entire show was about this torunament.
That should be the case, yes, all I am saying is, if the plot demands all fighters be shown to have a fight and back story, we will get all fighters get it, just the time and quality of fights might change..

That being said, I am confident the arc is not just a tournament
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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by sintzu » Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:48 am

Ki Breaker wrote:I am confident the arc is not just a tournament
Do you think some kind of war will break out between 2 or more of the universes ? or that there's some kind of evil behind the scenes ?
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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by Ki Breaker » Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:54 am

sintzu wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote:I am confident the arc is not just a tournament
Do you think some kind of war will break out between 2 or more of the universes ? or that there's some kind of evil behind the scenes ?
The tournament will be interrupted somehow, the clown god and his mystery fighter should be a big thing in the tournament and outside of it..
There is definitely something else behind the shadows..

An all out war can only be possible if the omni King's are out of the picture, maybe destroying each other in an argument?
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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by sintzu » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:27 am

Ki Breaker wrote:An all out war can only be possible if the omni King's are out of the picture, maybe destroying each other in an argument?
That would be a good way to get rid of them.
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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by namekiansaiyan » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:31 am

I don't know why we can't see a lot of the fights especially if we have double battles. This arc should be a lot longer and closer on length to arcs in Dragon Ball Z due to the size of the tournament and becuase it looks like we have a new opening dedicated to this arc.

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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by desu » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:05 am

They can do it, as long as there are some non-fighting episodes between the tournament that explains the universe's fighters origins or important events on them, then they could get the time to make more important fights.
Then there could be some comedy episodes or where the tournament is interrumped for some reason, (like the Zeno's discussing and Makaioshin getting in and killing them both and forcing the tournament to continue). As long as they don't rush and hire more animators for this arc, we could get a 40-50 episodes arc at least.

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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by buutenks » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:23 am

WHy is it to big? If they make it long enough it can easily be done. Only problem would be if they made the arc short, i.e 20 episodes. If they give it 30-40 ep it will be fine. Since it isnt following a manga, it doesnt need to add tons of filler.

Considering how big FT arc was, even tho it was 20 episodes long, it still could have been a bit shorter, since they made it longer with the whole go to future, get ass kicked, come back and repeat 3 times.

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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by Neon Z » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:13 am

sintzu wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote:Long tournament fight's could be pulled off easily, the main ones get more time and the small fries get lesser time.
I think this is more or less what'll happen.

What I was saying is that giving EVERYONE involved (130+ characters) equal screen time wouldn't be possible unless the entire show was about this torunament.
It IS getting an opening just focused on it, so it could actually last much longer than previous Super arcs.

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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by Nekis13 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:36 pm

Ki Breaker wrote: An all out war can only be possible if the omni King's are out of the picture, maybe destroying each other in an argument?
Universe 7 loses and the Omni King's get into an argument because one of them doesn't want to destroy his friend's universe... Hmm... :think:
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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by sintzu » Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:39 pm

Neon Z wrote:It IS getting an opening just focused on it, so it could actually last much longer than previous Super arcs.
I didn't think about that but you're right. if it's getting its own opening then chances are it'll be long.
Nekis13 wrote:Universe 7 loses and the Omni King's get into an argument because one of them doesn't want to destroy his friend's universe... Hmm... :think:
6 universes side with one Zeno while the others side with the other Zeno.

I guess that would be a good reason to bring in another Zeno. to even the playing field.
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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by Shuby » Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:28 pm

Beyond wrote:Hopefully Toriyama takes some notes from Togashi for this arc.
Sure Toei and/or Toriyama can take some notes from Tohashi's work in yyh, called the dark tournament arc which is regarded by many as one of the if not the best tournament arc in anime history, i dont think Toriyama or Toei simply have in them to create suck a damn great arc as the dark tournament arc. That's like saying i wished Toriyama's design was as expressive and detailled and Togashi's, it aint happenin'.

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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by Ki Breaker » Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:38 pm

Keep hearing about this dark tournament arc..
Is it really that good? What was so good about it?
I don't mind any spoilers
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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by Shuby » Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:51 pm

Ki Breaker wrote:Keep hearing about this dark tournament arc..
Is it really that good? What was so good about it?
I don't mind any spoilers
I would suggest you to watch yyh if you haven't but here is why:

None of the matches in the Dark Tournament play the same. At the beginning of each round, the team captains decide on the victory conditions. It can be best 3 out of 5, elimination matches, or, for one match, a 3 on 3 battle royale. That combined with the various specialties and powers of the combatants themselves ensure none of the matches feel the same.

For me, the best part of any shonen action series’ fight is the way the protagonists use their skills and their brains to come up with a way to win, be it using the enemy’s power against them, finding their weakness, or using what they know in new and creative ways. Yu Yu Hakusho is one of the best examples of this. In almost none of the fights in the Dark Tournament do conventional tactics work, and even when they use new and special tricks to beat one opponent, there are later fighters that anticipate them and are ready for it, meaning even more new ideas need to be made for the heroes to win. The resulting provision of new moves, techniques, strategies, and powers only further keeps the episodes fresh and unpredictable.

A lot goes on outside the fights as well, for extra character development and breaks from the normally tourney-structured action. There are corrupt tournament committees, chatty announcers, and Yusuke’s friends in the stands along with spirit leader Koenma and a blue ogre providing observation and commentary to add some comedy and exposition. The characters in the fights themselves are also fairly well-established with their own reasons for entering the tournament. Some of them are actually decent people that even Yusuke(main character) takes a liking to. If you just want something fun to watch with a respectable amount of heart and thought put into it, Yu Yu Hakusho will definitely fit the bill. So overall it gives several episodes of action-packed, well-paced, character-driven shonen goodness.

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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by Beyond » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:15 pm

Shuby wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote:Keep hearing about this dark tournament arc..
Is it really that good? What was so good about it?
I don't mind any spoilers
I would suggest you to watch yyh if you haven't but here is why:

None of the matches in the Dark Tournament play the same. At the beginning of each round, the team captains decide on the victory conditions. It can be best 3 out of 5, elimination matches, or, for one match, a 3 on 3 battle royale. That combined with the various specialties and powers of the combatants themselves ensure none of the matches feel the same.

For me, the best part of any shonen action series’ fight is the way the protagonists use their skills and their brains to come up with a way to win, be it using the enemy’s power against them, finding their weakness, or using what they know in new and creative ways. Yu Yu Hakusho is one of the best examples of this. In almost none of the fights in the Dark Tournament do conventional tactics work, and even when they use new and special tricks to beat one opponent, there are later fighters that anticipate them and are ready for it, meaning even more new ideas need to be made for the heroes to win. The resulting provision of new moves, techniques, strategies, and powers only further keeps the episodes fresh and unpredictable.

A lot goes on outside the fights as well, for extra character development and breaks from the normally tourney-structured action. There are corrupt tournament committees, chatty announcers, and Yusuke’s friends in the stands along with spirit leader Koenma and a blue ogre providing observation and commentary to add some comedy and exposition. The characters in the fights themselves are also fairly well-established with their own reasons for entering the tournament. Some of them are actually decent people that even Yusuke(main character) takes a liking to. If you just want something fun to watch with a respectable amount of heart and thought put into it, Yu Yu Hakusho will definitely fit the bill. So overall it gives several episodes of action-packed, well-paced, character-driven shonen goodness.
I agree with this. I'd like to add my opinion. The thing about the dark tournament that was so great for me was every main character did a lot. There were 5 main characters, and you couldn't cut one out without dramatically changing the plot. That's already better than U6 tournament can say(how is 10 going to work when only 2 people out of 5 last tournament mattered?). In the dark tournament, even though one member was dramatically weaker than the other 4, he still wins some fights, and he heavily affects the plot. Even though the big bad for the tournament were established before it began, every round before we got to them had a strong narrative. We didn't see every team in the tournament, but it didn't really matter because the big bads got their hype matches without revealing too much of their abilities, and every round the heroes fought was different enough to feel fresh. Every member fought at least 3 times.

The problem with the survival arc is there is no way all 10 of these guys are doing stuff(at least not going by the track record of any other db tournament. It's too much). Any win that anyone not named Goku or Vegeta get is probably a win Goku or Vegeta could have gotten in much easier fashion without wasting any energy at all, and that's not a problem if the narrative around the fight is good enough. I can't see that being the case for anyone other than Gohan and Krillin. The other 6 are likely fucked. Even the weakest guy in the dark world tournament won matches that no one else could.

tldr: Characters felt important in the Dark World tournament. They probably won't be in the survival tournament.

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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by The gr » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:35 pm

Toriyama is an OK ish writer but is how he passing his vague outline to toei or toyble that what I don't like and he still suffer with the poor cast usage I just wish toriyama wrote his own manga about DB super toyble should do the art meanwhile toriyama is the writer and it should have at least two or three chapter per month because that monthly schedule is damaging the ft manga arc
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Re: Is The Universe Survival Arc too big for Super to execute

Post by namekiansaiyan » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:49 pm

Beyond wrote:
Shuby wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote:Keep hearing about this dark tournament arc..
Is it really that good? What was so good about it?
I don't mind any spoilers
I would suggest you to watch yyh if you haven't but here is why:

None of the matches in the Dark Tournament play the same. At the beginning of each round, the team captains decide on the victory conditions. It can be best 3 out of 5, elimination matches, or, for one match, a 3 on 3 battle royale. That combined with the various specialties and powers of the combatants themselves ensure none of the matches feel the same.

For me, the best part of any shonen action series’ fight is the way the protagonists use their skills and their brains to come up with a way to win, be it using the enemy’s power against them, finding their weakness, or using what they know in new and creative ways. Yu Yu Hakusho is one of the best examples of this. In almost none of the fights in the Dark Tournament do conventional tactics work, and even when they use new and special tricks to beat one opponent, there are later fighters that anticipate them and are ready for it, meaning even more new ideas need to be made for the heroes to win. The resulting provision of new moves, techniques, strategies, and powers only further keeps the episodes fresh and unpredictable.

A lot goes on outside the fights as well, for extra character development and breaks from the normally tourney-structured action. There are corrupt tournament committees, chatty announcers, and Yusuke’s friends in the stands along with spirit leader Koenma and a blue ogre providing observation and commentary to add some comedy and exposition. The characters in the fights themselves are also fairly well-established with their own reasons for entering the tournament. Some of them are actually decent people that even Yusuke(main character) takes a liking to. If you just want something fun to watch with a respectable amount of heart and thought put into it, Yu Yu Hakusho will definitely fit the bill. So overall it gives several episodes of action-packed, well-paced, character-driven shonen goodness.
I agree with this. I'd like to add my opinion. The thing about the dark tournament that was so great for me was every main character did a lot. There were 5 main characters, and you couldn't cut one out without dramatically changing the plot. That's already better than U6 tournament can say(how is 10 going to work when only 2 people out of 5 last tournament mattered?). In the dark tournament, even though one member was dramatically weaker than the other 4, he still wins some fights, and he heavily affects the plot. Even though the big bad for the tournament were established before it began, every round before we got to them had a strong narrative. We didn't see every team in the tournament, but it didn't really matter because the big bads got their hype matches without revealing too much of their abilities, and every round the heroes fought was different enough to feel fresh. Every member fought at least 3 times.

The problem with the survival arc is there is no way all 10 of these guys are doing stuff(at least not going by the track record of any other db tournament. It's too much). Any win that anyone not named Goku or Vegeta get is probably a win Goku or Vegeta could have gotten in much easier fashion without wasting any energy at all, and that's not a problem if the narrative around the fight is good enough. I can't see that being the case for anyone other than Gohan and Krillin. The other 6 are likely fucked. Even the weakest guy in the dark world tournament won matches that no one else could.

tldr: Characters felt important in the Dark World tournament. They probably won't be in the survival tournament.
The other 6 are not in trouble. The Gohan episodes had nothing saying he wants to be stronger or even fight only krillin has. These episodes are to get them back into the fighting scene. No episodes like these are needed for Piccolo, Tien, Buu and Vegeta since they are already in a very good way to fight and I would expect these 4, along with Goku to beat a lot of the other 110 fighters with easily. I have them split into 2 groups right now the top group consists of:

Group 1: Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Tien and Buu
Group 2: Andorid 17 and 18, Krillin, Roshi and Gohan

I have group 1 doing good most of the tournament and group 2 having up and downs.

Overall I think all fighters will contribute.

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