Is Goku to be blamed if anybody dies in the Tournament?

[Low Tone G]

It really isn't any different than how Z or even 23rd Goku has been. People are actually trying to justify Goku's actions pre-Super as if his actions in Super are any worse than his actions in Z or late DB. They're not. There really isn't much of a difference between Z Goku and Super Goku. He was being a pretty big jerkass convincing Kuririn to let Vegeta go even though he had no justifiable reason to let Vegeta live. This action really isn't any worse.

BUT...had Krillin killed Vegeta, there would be no Trunks, and without Trunks Goku would have died of the heart virus.
And without Goku everyone would have died.

So by sparing Vegeta he ultimately saved himself and the rest of the Z gang.

So maybe some of his actions are selfish, they sometimes turn out for the best.

You're perfectly right, but it is because Goku's the main character, the most special prodigy and genius... But ask anyone... Goku's actions are on their own very selfish and lack common sense. They can eventually turn out to be the best, but they tend to cause redundant troubles not only for himself but for all the reality in Dragon Ball, the reality being on the scale, where now is.

[SansrivaaL]

Inb4 Super fcks up Goku's reaction again if the cast starts to blame him.
Beerus: This is all your fault! I told you dont do it! look what you've done.
Vegeta: Kakarot I am having a 2nd baby coming, and you pull this?
Krillin: Yeah man, not cool.
Bulma: Son.... why are you so stupid?
Piccolo: hmph....
17&18: We really should have killed you before and be done with it.
Boo: Boo want candy!
Chichi: What are we gonna do now... oh Goten study faster before the universe ends! get on those books right now young man.
Gohan:.... calm down everyone, I'm sure everything will work out in the end, right father?
Goku: (omera nanio iteruka wakanezooooow, tonikaku ora wakuwaku sunzo!)=(I dont understand you guys, anyways I'm excited!)

[TheMikado]

It really isn't any different than how Z or even 23rd Goku has been. People are actually trying to justify Goku's actions pre-Super as if his actions in Super are any worse than his actions in Z or late DB. They're not. There really isn't much of a difference between Z Goku and Super Goku. He was being a pretty big jerkass convincing Kuririn to let Vegeta go even though he had no justifiable reason to let Vegeta live. This action really isn't any worse.

BUT...had Krillin killed Vegeta, there would be no Trunks, and without Trunks Goku would have died of the heart virus.
And without Goku everyone would have died.

So by sparing Vegeta he ultimately saved himself and the rest of the Z gang.

So maybe some of his actions are selfish, they sometimes turn out for the best.

You're perfectly right, but it is because Goku's the main character, the most special prodigy and genius... But ask anyone... Goku's actions are on their own very selfish and lack common sense. They can eventually turn out to be the best, but they tend to cause redundant troubles not only for himself but for all the reality in Dragon Ball, the reality being on the scale, where is now.

We can take this argument all the way back if you want to, if Goku hadnt existed in the first place there would be no androids, no saiyan saga, etc. We aren't talking about the causation. We are critiquing the character for the information he does have at the time of making his decision. We all ask the same thing. Is it worth the risk? What would I do in the same situation with the same information? I may have let Vegeta go because I don't believe in killing people, especially after they are already beaten. But I certainly wouldn't go picking a fight for any reason. These recent actions are starting to alienate people from the character. We all assumed be had more sense and empathy than this.

[Low Tone G]

Inb4 Super fcks up Goku's reaction again if the cast starts to blame him.
Beerus: This is all your fault! I told you dont do it! look what you've done.
Vegeta: Kakarot I am having a 2nd baby coming, and you pull this?
Krillin: Yeah man, not cool.
Bulma: Son.... why are you so stupid?
Piccolo: hmph....
17&18: We really should have killed you before and be done with it.
Boo: Boo want candy!
Chichi: What are we gonna do now... oh Goten study faster before the universe ends! get on those books right now young man.
Gohan:.... calm down everyone, I'm sure everything will work out in the end, right father?
Goku: (omera nanio iteruka wakanezooooow, tonikaku ora wakuwaku sunzo!)=(I dont understand you guys, anyways I'm excited!)

Brilliant...
I highly doubt that Goku eventually will regret his decision, although in the NEP he turned his back suggesting that he is concerned a bit...

[TheMathemagician]

It really isn't any different than how Z or even 23rd Goku has been. People are actually trying to justify Goku's actions pre-Super as if his actions in Super are any worse than his actions in Z or late DB. They're not. There really isn't much of a difference between Z Goku and Super Goku. He was being a pretty big jerkass convincing Kuririn to let Vegeta go even though he had no justifiable reason to let Vegeta live. This action really isn't any worse.

You make it sound like Goku threatened Krillin or something. He was actually rather apologetic about letting Vegeta live and even regrets his decision later on.

Yes he did regret it later, it doesn't really change the fact that sparing Vegeta wasn't any worse than what he did in this recent episode.

[Ki Breaker]

Inb4 Super fcks up Goku's reaction again if the cast starts to blame him.
Beerus: This is all your fault! I told you dont do it! look what you've done.
Vegeta: Kakarot I am having a 2nd baby coming, and you pull this?
Krillin: Yeah man, not cool.
Bulma: Son.... why are you so stupid?
Piccolo: hmph....
17&18: We really should have killed you before and be done with it.
Boo: Boo want candy!
Chichi: What are we gonna do now... oh Goten study faster before the universe ends! get on those books right now young man.
Gohan:.... calm down everyone, I'm sure everything will work out in the end, right father?
Goku: (omera nanio iteruka wakanezooooow, tonikaku ora wakuwaku sunzo!)=(I dont understand you guys, anyways I'm excited!)

Brilliant...
I highly doubt that Goku eventually will regret his decision, although in the NEP he turned his back suggesting that he is concerned a bit...

Goku is most definitely gonna say that..
especially the "wakanezooooow"
They seem to put that line in every situation where Goku isn't fighting..

But going by the recent episode, I feel he will be more of an asshole than an idiot in this arc

[DBZAOTA482]

It really isn't any different than how Z or even 23rd Goku has been. People are actually trying to justify Goku's actions pre-Super as if his actions in Super are any worse than his actions in Z or late DB. They're not. There really isn't much of a difference between Z Goku and Super Goku. He was being a pretty big jerkass convincing Kuririn to let Vegeta go even though he had no justifiable reason to let Vegeta live. This action really isn't any worse.

You make it sound like Goku threatened Krillin or something. He was actually rather apologetic about letting Vegeta live and even regrets his decision later on.

Yes he did regret it later, it doesn't really change the fact that sparing Vegeta wasn't any worse than what he did in this recent episode.

I don't have a problem with the tournament thing either all things considered.

[HeroR]

It really isn't any different than how Z or even 23rd Goku has been. People are actually trying to justify Goku's actions pre-Super as if his actions in Super are any worse than his actions in Z or late DB. They're not. There really isn't much of a difference between Z Goku and Super Goku. He was being a pretty big jerkass convincing Kuririn to let Vegeta go even though he had no justifiable reason to let Vegeta live. This action really isn't any worse.

BUT...had Krillin killed Vegeta, there would be no Trunks, and without Trunks Goku would have died of the heart virus.
And without Goku everyone would have died.

So by sparing Vegeta he ultimately saved himself and the rest of the Z gang.

So maybe some of his actions are selfish, they sometimes turn out for the best.

You're using hindsight to justify Vegeta. Goku had no way of knowing that Vegeta would turn good. In fact, Goku outright said he doubted Vegeta would be like Piccolo and planned to kill him the next time they met. Also, as far as we know, Bulma could of had a child with Yamcha would could have done the exact same things as Future Trunks.

And if we're going to used, 'it turned out for the best despite being selfish', you can make the same argument about this arc since we don't know what what will happened. Maybe, 'things will turn out for the best' here too. That still doesn't excuse Goku sparing Vegeta which was 100% selfish and the happy outcome was completely accidental.

[Lord Beerus]

Here's my ultimate stance on this:

Does Goku get the blame for the tournament happening? Yes. He reminded Zeno after he forgot about it. Does he deserve the blame for anyone dying in the tournament? No, he doesn't. I mean, speaking from an in-universe Goku would have no idea that a tournament would lead to such a drastic stipulation. But at the same time, he was specifically warned by Beerus and Whis about Zeno's unpredictable behaviour, and he was informed about how Zeno destroyed universes for petty reasons in the past. Although, it was initially Champa who came up with the Universe 6/7 tournament idea in the first place.

That being said, what Goku did with going to visit Zeno despite the direct threat from Beerus was such an awesome moment because it was at that point thatGoku is so self aware of how indirectly destructive his actions can be. Him pressing the Zeno button just to screw around with Beerus was amazing. It Cell arc level jerkassery from Goku. And only a notch below Majin Boo arc level jerkassery. But at the same time, what he did was perfectly in-character. It's established as far back as the 23rd WMAT that Goku can be casually reckless and needlessly endanger the lives of billions of peoples on a whim or for a good fight.

Now the big question is how will people react to the news that Goku indirectly endangered trillions upon trillions of lives? This will be very interesting. I persoanlly think some people will resent Goku over the circumstances of the tournament, given he got the ball rolling with the tournament and even reminded Zeno after he forgot about it. But I don't think anyone will really hate or want to kill Goku because his intentions were just to have a tournament and while he was warned about Zeno's unpredictable nature by both Beerus and Whis, I don't think he would have expected it to get as extreme as it did.

I hope that the idea that each universe will be destroyed for the entire losing is just an incentive created so that each universe bring their strongest warriors to get the most intense and best tournament possible. Much like how Beerus used Monaka as an incentive for Goku and Vegeta to train hard for the Universe 6/7 tournament. But given how nonchalant Zeno is, I doubt that will the case. In that case, I'm fully expecting the Super Dragon Balls to be gathered and wish for all the Universes destroyed by Zeno to be restored, should that conclusion be brought about where every losing team has their universe destroyed.

After all is said and done... I really had no issue with what Goku did. He is a blood knight. So if he sees a good chance for a good fight, he'll take it, irregardless of the repercussions. We've seen him act like this several times in the past, with Piccolo, Vegeta (twice!), The Ginyu Force, Freeza (twice!), Cell and Majin Boo.

[Babbu]

I disagree. Goku's character is not that of a heroic superman or anything, but this feels like they've taken his personality and multiplied it by about a billion. When he has to be Goku can be something other than a gibbering oaf who only cares about fighting strong guys. Like he can rub two brain cells together every once in a while in Z. Here he is just being a total jerkass.

The only real different is that Zen'o is much stronger than Vegeta (who murdered thousands of people before changing) and Frieza (who came back and tried to blow up the Earth and succeeded once). Even in the original Dragon Ball he chose to the tournament over stopping Piccolo by any means since his death meant Piccolo takes over the world.

At least with Zen'o, Goku is on friendly terms. The other people I named were all villains.

Goku kills Tao, takes the RRA seriously, kills Daimao, kills his brother, doesn't tell Freeza to get stronger and come back but rather tells Freeza he is beneath him and to go into exile, he is a terrible father but has a plan for Cell beyond fighting a strong guy, and with Buu he makes a bad choice but one designed to end the threat.

[TheMathemagician]

You make it sound like Goku threatened Krillin or something. He was actually rather apologetic about letting Vegeta live and even regrets his decision later on.

Yes he did regret it later, it doesn't really change the fact that sparing Vegeta wasn't any worse than what he did in this recent episode.

I don't have a problem with the tournament thing either all things considered.

I don't either. My only point was regardless if he felt regret for some of his terrible actions in Z or not, it doesn't change the fact that what he did wasn't any worse than what he did here. Not to mention like in Z, he might end up regretting it. Honestly, if he doesn't feel any guilt, then he'd truly be a really bad character to me who is far worse than how he was in Z.

Here's my ultimate stance on this:

Does Goku get the blame for the tournament happening? Yes. He reminded Zeno after he forgot about it. Does he deserve the blame for anyone dying in the tournament? No, he doesn't. I mean, speaking from an in-universe Goku would have no idea that a tournament would lead to such a drastic stipulation. But at the same time, he was specifically warned by Beerus and Whis about Zeno's unpredictable behaviour, and he was informed about how Zeno destroyed universes for petty reasons in the past. Although, it was initially Champa who came up with the Universe 6/7 tournament idea in the first place.

That being said, what Goku did with going to visit Zeno despite the direct threat from Beerus was such an awesome moment because it was at that point thatGoku is so self aware of how indirectly destructive his actions can be. Him pressing the Zeno button just to screw around with Beerus was amazing. It Cell arc level jerkassery from Goku. And only a notch below Majin Boo arc level jerkassery. But at the same time, what he did was perfectly in-character. It's established as far back as the 23rd WMAT that Goku can be casually reckless and needlessly endanger the lives of billions of peoples on a whim or for a good fight.

Now the big question is how will people react to the news that Goku indirectly endangered trillions upon trillions of lives? This will be very interesting. I persoanlly think some people will resent Goku over the circumstances of the tournament, given he got the ball rolling with the tournament and even reminded Zeno after he forgot about it. But I don't think anyone will really hate or want to kill Goku because his intentions were just to have a tournament and while he was warned about Zeno's unpredictable nature by both Beerus and Whis, I don't think he would have expected it to get as extreme as it did.

I hope that the idea that each universe will be destroyed for the entire losing is just an incentive created so that each universe bring their strongest warriors to get the most intense and best tournament possible. Much like how Beerus used Monaka as an incentive for Goku and Vegeta to train hard for the Universe 6/7 tournament. But given how nonchalant Zeno is, I doubt that will the case. In that case, I'm fully expecting the Super Dragon Balls to be gathered and wish for all the Universes destroyed by Zeno to be restored, should that conclusion be brought about where every losing team has their universe destroyed.

After all is said and done... I really had no issue with what Goku did. He is a blood knight. So if he sees a good chance for a good fight, he'll take it, irregardless of the repercussions. We've seen him act like this several times in the past, with Piccolo, Vegeta (twice!), The Ginyu Force, Freeza (twice!), Cell and Majin Boo.

He was being a jerkass and I can see how that would piss people off this episode, but I honestly enjoyed the fact that he just trolls Beerus so casually.

I disagree. Goku's character is not that of a heroic superman or anything, but this feels like they've taken his personality and multiplied it by about a billion. When he has to be Goku can be something other than a gibbering oaf who only cares about fighting strong guys. Like he can rub two brain cells together every once in a while in Z. Here he is just being a total jerkass.

The only real different is that Zen'o is much stronger than Vegeta (who murdered thousands of people before changing) and Frieza (who came back and tried to blow up the Earth and succeeded once). Even in the original Dragon Ball he chose to the tournament over stopping Piccolo by any means since his death meant Piccolo takes over the world.

At least with Zen'o, Goku is on friendly terms. The other people I named were all villains.

Goku kills Tao, takes the RRA seriously, kills Daimao, kills his brother, doesn't tell Freeza to get stronger and come back but rather tells Freeza he is beneath him and to go into exile, he is a terrible father but has a plan for Cell beyond fighting a strong guy, and with Buu he makes a bad choice but one designed to end the threat.

I wouldn't even say he's all that bad of a father either. He's been around with his children more often than people give him credit for.

[HeroR]

Goku kills Tao, takes the RRA seriously, kills Daimao, kills his brother, doesn't tell Freeza to get stronger and come back but rather tells Freeza he is beneath him and to go into exile, he is a terrible father but has a plan for Cell beyond fighting a strong guy, and with Buu he makes a bad choice but one designed to end the threat.

Goku being a 'terrible father' is fandom, not a fact reflexed in the show. Goku didn't kill Tao and didn't take the Red Ribbon Army seriously until it was for his benefit to wipe them out.

Also, none of this have anything to do with Goku's past actions being reckless and selfish.

[Big Black Sayian]

Yes Goku is to blame but it wouldn't be the first time one of our main characters made things worse. :p

[Nano]

Goku has no idea who or what he's dealing with when it comes to Zeno. He fucked the multiverse all for the sake of training and fighting.

I like how they sorted of hinted towards him turning out to be the villian due to his naïve nature.

[TheMikado]

He was being a jerkass and I can see how that would piss people off this episode, but I honestly enjoyed the fact that he just trolls Beerus so casually.

There's quite a few people he do not particularly enjoy "jerkass" Goku. It's unnecessary, petty, and childish. Look we know Goku is no Hero, but the way he just $h*t all over the lives of everyone else in the universe is really bad.
The argument that he's done this before only makes him even more of a "jerkass". Some people aren't happy with watching this character fulfill that role more and more.

[Muffin Man]

A better question is "Why isn't Goku singlemindedly determined to become strong enough to take down Zeno?"

Yeah, Zeno seems all powerful and unbeatable, but so did Freeza when he was first introduced. Yet Goku was determined to beat Freeza because of his strength and was even more determined to defeat him after seeing how heartless he was, even when all hope seemed lost.

Yet here everyone in the show is treating Zeno as though his power somehow gives him to right to kill countless people. It's like the series completely changed its message, from "fight against malevalent authority no matter what" to "comply with malevalent authority because that's the way the universe works". And as a result Goku's completely been neutered as a character. Instead of seeking the greatest challenge and being determined in the face of seemingly unbeatable villainy, he acts like an oblivious dumbass who's love for battle has basically been turned into a joke.

[Ki Breaker]

A better question is "Why isn't Goku singlemindedly determined to become strong enough to take down Zeno?"

First he should focus on berrus, zeno is a question for an eternity later.

[Muffin Man]

A better question is "Why isn't Goku singlemindedly determined to become strong enough to take down Zeno?"

First he should focus on berrus, zeno is a question for an eternity later.

Since when in DBZ has Goku ever settled for less than the strongest opponent available? He stopped caring about Vegeta as soon as he found out about Freeza (even though Goku never actually beat Vegeta himself) and he stopped caring about the androids as soon as he found out about Cell (even though the androids were already far stronger than him).

[Low Tone G]

A better question is "Why isn't Goku singlemindedly determined to become strong enough to take down Zeno?"

First he should focus on berrus, zeno is a question for an eternity later.

Since when in DBZ has Goku ever settled for less than the strongest opponent available? He stopped caring about Vegeta as soon as he found out about Freeza (even though Goku never actually beat Vegeta himself) and he stopped caring about the androids as soon as he found out about Cell (even though the androids were already far stronger than him).

Good points, but both Zen'o and Beerus are regarded not as villains, espceially for Goku. For now, at least..

[Rubens]

I'd say Goku's is indirectly to be blamed for his negligence.

I believe that, in his mind, Goku isn't worried because it's just a tournament and Zeno is just a misunderstood little guy (2 now) who will follow his requests, because he's Goku's pal now. But I'm afraid that's exactly the problem: Zeno is not Goku's pal; he just likes Goku and takes his request for the tournament because it sounds fun, but when the moment comes he will raise the stakes to make the event even more fun - which envolves destroying universes - and will probably disregard Goku, no matter what he says.

The reason why is Goku's fault for this is because he will be the one the cause the situation, after he was warned about Zeno's dangerous nature; he doesn't know about Zeno's intention and he's unconsciously triggering genocide at the cost of his obsession for fighting so, in a way, it's Goku's responsibility. Sure the omni kings are actually the perpetrators, but it is Goku's unawareness that starts all this so everyone will have to deal with the consequences. Even gods.

(There's also the chance the everyone will be cool about it and things will go back to normal after the tournament )