Kaiō & Kaiōshin of the 12 Universes

[OtōsanDaishinkan]

So this has been bugging me for quite awhile now, as I'm sure it has other people, but why does it seem that the other Universes have only one Kaiōshin that rules over their entire macrocosm? With the Universal Survival Arc having begun, and the next episode preview (#78) showing the arrival of a/the Kaiōshin from each participating Universe alongside their respective Gods of Destruction and their Angels, it seems possible the answer to these questions may be around the corner, or we may be left even more hopelessly frustrated to have this topic not addressed.

To recap, the original Dragon Ball manga, and with further explanation from the Guide Books and Z-Anime, stated that their were formerly 5 Kaiōshin who watched over the macrocosm from their realm. Just like the Kaiō within the macrocosm, in which there is a Kaiō for each cardinal direction to watch over that respective "galaxy"/area of the mortal universe, and a Dai-Kaiō above them who watches over all, so to was there at a time a Kaiōshin for each cardinal direction and a Dai-Kaiōshin above them, their duty being to watch over the entirety of the macrocosm. That was until Majin Boo wiped them all out but one, the East Kaiōshin (this is ignoring Kibito the attendant and the Elder Kaiōshin who was still in the Z-Sword). While Super has neither brought this up nor contradicted it, with it we now have a much expanded God Hierarchy and Cosmology, in which the entire Dragon World we knew before is now just one universe out of 12, each of which has a God of Destruction, who each have an Angel for a companion/attendant, and that there is an Omni-King who presides supreme above them all. When the time came for the tournament between Universe 7 and 6, a Kaiōshin for Universe 6 was introduced alongside a Kibito like attendant character. There was no indication "which Kaiōshin he was (east, west, south, north), nor if he was the Dai-Kaiōshin of his Universe. Then in the next major arc, we are introduced to Gowasu and Zamasu, a Kaiōshin and Kaiōshin in training/former Kaiō respectively of Universe 10. Again, there is no indication that there are any other Kaiōshin working alongside Gowasu or below. We've also since been introduced to the concepts that Kaiōshin are the Gods of Creation counterparts to the Gods of Destruction, and that they are mortally linked. Within a Universe, if one were to cease to exist, the other would also cease to exist, leaving that Universe absent of both. For example, after traveling to Future Trunks's timeline (timelines we now definitively know as being entire duplicate realities where independent duplicate versions of all 12 Macrocosms and the Omni-King himself exist) Goku Black was able to eliminate the greatest threats to his power and 0 Mortals Plan, each Universe's respective and presumably vastly more powerful God of Destruction, by eliminating their Kaiōshin counterparts. Everything about all of this seems to suggest that despite what we were told about the Kaiōshin of Universe 7 in the original run and subsequent years before Super, that as it now stand other Universes do not have the set up we should have come to expect. So the question is, do the other Universes have only one singular Kaiōshin? And if so, why?

The way I see it, there are only about five possible answers to this. 1) Toriyama/Toei forgot that in Universe 7 there were originally 5 Kaiōshin with a set up mirroring the 5 Kaiō. Given that I beleive it was only mentioned twice in the manga by Shin/East Kaiōshin/Supreme Kai, first when responding to Vegeta's thoughts underestimating the threat in chapter 445, and only again in chapter 508 when Boo begins to transform back into his Pure Boo form, I think its possible Toriyama forgot, as he can be known to do. Even still, that wouldn't really excuse the people at Toei and Toyotarō from not addressing this possible inconsistency. 2) This is no accident, and Universe 7 was unique in this sense, and the other universes are different, likely having only one singular Kaiōshin as the creator God and defacto Dai-Kaiōshin, with other Shin-jin serving as either apprentices, attendants, or being relegated to a Kaiō til they can work their way up and be deemed worthy to rise to apprentice Kaiōshin level. 3) The other Universes are just like Universe 7, and despite how things appear, there are indeed 5 Kaiōshin in these other universes, we just are typically only being introduced to only one as the representative of that Universe. 4) Like in Universe 7, the other universes at some point in the past had 5 Kaiōshin, but suffered similar tragedies leaving their numbers dwindled, or Zen-Oh decided to eliminate these "extra" Kaiōshin after deciding that each universe only needed one, after seeing Universe 7 survive for some time that way seemingly fine (cosmic downsizing theory). 5) Some convoluted combination of options 2 through 5.

[Nejishiki]

I personally suspect Universe 7 featured extra Kaioshin due to Old Kaioshin's sealing by Beerus. Jaco the Galactic Patrolman Chapter 02 notes Universe 7's unusual lack of planets with intelligent lifeforms. Perhaps Kaioshin failed to make up for Old Kaioshin's lost time? Universe 1-6 & 8-12, by comparison, are managing their businesses well, as expected of them. After all, the quintuple Kaioshin system was established millions of years ago in Universe 7. Why wouldn't anything change eventually?

[Grimlock]

In Herms' summary and Crunchyroll subtitles, Daishinkan says he will inform all Kaioshins from each Universe. Since the word is in plural, that imples there are five Kaioshins in the other Universes too.

[Nejishiki]

"Kaioshin" can be translated singular or plural due to Japanese vagueness. The translator's choice to opt with plurals isn't indicative of much, I'm afraid.

[julianix]

They probably forgot or won't bother explaining it but I think we should just all assume every universe has 5 kaioshins and the gods of destruction are taking the top shelf guy.

[Hellspawn28]

We still haven't seen everything yet. We will probably see the other Kaioshins that are not the main Kaioshin of their own universe.

[OtōsanDaishinkan]

In the wake of Episode 78, going off at least the Crunchy Roll subs, it would seem they are in fact stating or at least implying that each universe only has one Kaiōshin, since they say all the Kaiōshin and Gods of Destruction from each Universe are present.

[MaxZ]

I guess the ones we're seeing must all be the respective grand Kaioshins of their universes? it's really the only thing that makes sense.

I hope they address it somehow in the anime or in the manga.

Toyotaro at least seemed to remember it in a way when he made sure to have the Old Kaioshin die in the battle with Dabura since Beerus should theoretically only die if all the Kaioshin are dead.

[dbgtFO]

I guess the ones we're seeing must all be the respective grand Kaioshins of their universes? it's really the only thing that makes sense.

I hope they address it somehow in the anime or in the manga.

Toyotaro at least seemed to remember it in a way when he made sure to have the Old Kaioshin die in the battle with Dabura since Beerus should theoretically only die if all the Kaioshin are dead.

Eh it's just a retcon. No biggie and it's clear to see why Toriyama would do it that way, it streamlines the whole god hierarchy and he doesn't have to design so many new characters.
And Beerus is only ever stated to be linked with the very first Kaioshin we were introduced to. Until elaborated on, it remains that way, regardless of all the inconsistencies that implies.
At this point I for one am not holding out hope for it to be addressed anywhere other than in eventual guidebooks.
There is a slight hope with the manga, as it seems it has that meeting, that all the gods attended and likely was the meeting Whis and Beerus had to go to off-screen in episode 75, so it might just get brought up there, but likely won't.

[kaialone]

Yeah as of right now I'm pretty sure it's a retcon/people forgot. So I believe as of right now we are to assume there is only one Kaioshin for each universe, probably.

It's especially off cause this arc features Boo more prominently who literally is the way he is cause he absorbed U7 previous Daikaioshin. (Wonder if any of the other universes Kaioshin look at him and ponder "You know, this guy REALLY reminds me of that U7 Kaioshin from back in the day. Weird." )

But like dbgtFO said, this does streamline the god hierarch,y and with 12 universes I almost wouldnt really want there to be 5 Kaioshin for each, thatd be like 60 characters, not counting potential tag-alongs ala Kibito and Old Kaioshin.

Plus it doesnt mean anything that was in the Boo saga is "fake" now, one can make it work.

I personally like to think/"headcanon" now that since Shinjin that have the potential to be Kaioshin are so rare, they just train and appoint any they can get to be Kaioshin, to be able to make the most out of what they have. But usually they still only got one at a time because they're so rare. U7 just got really lucky that one time with having 5 at once

[Lord Frieza]

Well we know there's more then one kaioshin for U6.

Maybe its a simple as they this. Kaioshin do not like Hakishin and most of them likely dont get on as well with each other as the U7 ones do. So basically one kaioshin from every universe drew the short straw and had to act as a representative for all the creation gods.

[OtōsanDaishinkan]

In Herms' summary and Crunchyroll subtitles, Daishinkan says he will inform all Kaioshins from each Universe. Since the word is in plural, that implies there are five Kaioshins in the other Universes too.

I don't think I agree with or follow your logic on this. The plurality could simply refer to the all 12 we see in episode 78, one for each Universe, not necessarily any other additional Kaiōshin. Unless I'm missing something. Herms is of course who I hope can clarify this, if this can even be solved with translation. His guide posts were exactly what I was looking back over when I started to really come to the conclusion that we might be getting a very annoying retcon.

Yeah as of right now I'm pretty sure it's a retcon/people forgot. So I believe as of right now we are to assume there is only one Kaioshin for each universe, probably.

It's especially off cause this arc features Boo more prominently who literally is the way he is cause he absorbed U7 previous Daikaioshin. (Wonder if any of the other universes Kaioshin look at him and ponder "You know, this guy REALLY reminds me of that U7 Kaioshin from back in the day. Weird." )

But like dbgtFO said, this does streamline the god hierarch,y and with 12 universes I almost wouldnt really want there to be 5 Kaioshin for each, thatd be like 60 characters, not counting potential tag-alongs ala Kibito and Old Kaioshin.

Plus it doesnt mean anything that was in the Boo saga is "fake" now, one can make it work.

I personally like to think/"headcanon" now that since Shinjin that have the potential to be Kaioshin are so rare, they just train and appoint any they can get to be Kaioshin, to be able to make the most out of what they have. But usually they still only got one at a time because they're so rare. U7 just got really lucky that one time with having 5 at once

The prominence of Boo is exactly the most obvious reason why this potential retcon CAN NOT STAND. Retconning out the 5 Kaiōshin concept/history means completely rectonning Boo's origins and a huge piece of the entire Boo arc by extension. The irony is that Toriyama already retconned Boo's origins, by saying Boo existed since the dawn of the universe and Bibbidi merely summoned him, rather than created him as the manga originally implied/stated. But that was far more minor, especially in comparison to this possible retcon.

I think Toyotaro being the knowledgable fan boy he is, and someone who has regular communication and collaboration with Toriyama beyond even just receiving the outline Toei gets, may be our best hope to solve this conundrum once he get to the Universe Survival Arc in the manga (probably in the May VJump).

Any of the solutions in my OP would do just fine, or I wouldn't be surprised if Toyotaro and Toriyama come up with something even more clever. BUT WE MUST GET AN ANSWER and I don't want to wait for a hypothetical guide book that might not come til 2019 or after the series is concluded.

[Grimlock]

His guide posts were exactly what I was looking back over when I started to really come to the conclusion that we might be getting a very annoying retcon.

From the latest episode, it seems we are getting an annoying and utterly unnecessary retcon. Whis says "all Kaioshins are gathered here" or something like that. If all Universes have just one Kaioshin, then it is an idea as stupid as hell.

[OtōsanDaishinkan]

His guide posts were exactly what I was looking back over when I started to really come to the conclusion that we might be getting a very annoying retcon.

From the latest episode, it seems we are getting an annoying and utterly unnecessary retcon. Whis says "all Kaioshins are gathered here" or something like that. If all Universes have just one Kaioshin, then it is an idea as stupid as hell.

Right, and this is why I'm borderline agro rage mode. I mean honestly, as much as I love Dragon Ball, these inconsistencies are always a pain, even if they are part and parcel with how Toriyama works. But I really feel this is a much more MAJOR inconsistency/potential retcon than almost anything else recently or ever in the history of the series. This to me makes Blue Hair Future Trunks, or Potara time/energy limits seem like no big thing in comparison. I actually hardly cared about any of that even at the time. Like I said in my last post, this could completely force an nonsensical retcon of the entire history of Majin Boo. That's HUGE.

[OtōsanDaishinkan]

Also take a look at the wording in the translations reported here for Kanzenshuu

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2017/02/10/of ... ce-actors/

第９宇宙
界王神 ロウ
CV：増谷康紀

第９宇宙の界王神。他の宇宙を少し馬鹿にする傾向にある。

Universe 9
Kaiōshin: Rou
Voice Actor: Yasunori Masutani

The Kaiōshin of Universe 9. Tends to make fun of the other universes a bit.

第１１宇宙
界王神 カイ
CV：村田太志

第11宇宙の界王神。命を大切にする正義感が強くやさしい界王神。

Universe 11
Kaiōshin: Kai
Voice Actor: Taishi Murata

The Kaiōshin of Universe 11. A gentle Kaiōshin with a strong sense of justice who values life.

I mean there really is no denying the implication here is there is only one Kaiōshin for each Universe, even though we know that was not true of Universe 7 according to the original manga, guide books, and even the Z anime.

[RalfHookman]

Despite being registered and reading the forum for over 5 years, as well as reading ALL Dragon Ball Super Episode Discussion threads, I decided to finally drop some of my words.

I really love Dragon Ball. As much as I like all its aspects, deities, gods, mysticism and adventure was what I liked the most about the series. And so, the concept of Kaio and Kaioshin was what I loved. It was so unusual idea about god hierarchy, even though I found it odd that Kaioshins are "just" duplicates of regular Kaios.

The retcon of Kaioshins is what infuriates me here. I'm angry on Akira Toriyama. He sort of ditched the idea about Kaishin (Gowasu told Zamasu to be ashamed of his actions since he is from Kaishin) and Shinjin in the moment when he presented the idea that Zamasu is a promoted regular Kaio. I literally was like "WTF!?". Zamasu is nothing like North Kaio and co.

I'm just going to pretend that all the Kaioshins gathered on the Zeno-sama's exhibition fights are just Dai Kaioshins from 12 universes, since there was no reason to bring Kaioshins that represent cardinal directions (the whole meeting would be too cramped). In case of Universe 7 we have East Kaioshin, who sort of assumed the role of Dai Kaioshin (new Dai Kaioshin was not chosen as well as other 3 Kaioshins for North, West and South).

I really don't like that Super forgot about Dai Kaioshin, since Mr. Buu JUST LOOKS LIKE HIM. It looks like the whole history of U7 Kaioshins was ditched and I hate that.

Also, do anyone of you feel that East Kaioshin surprisingly became so well educated when it comes to the god hierarchy and multiverse concept? For me, East Kaioshin became a "retcon tool" to just hide the original idea of Kaioshins. Just think about it. This dude didn't know who was Beerus, and in consequence Whis. Neither did he know about Zeno-sama until he showed up at the end of U6 vs U7 tournament. Now suddenly he knows how to teleport to Zeno-sama's world. He even recognized Universe 9 Kaioshin, as he said "It's been a long time".

The whole concept of Dragon Ball's god hierarchy just falls apart for me. And this is sad. Really. Like it would be so hard for the Dragon Ball Room to reread the last volume of Dragon Ball and drop single word "Dai" to clear everything up. Ugh...

[YonedgeHP]

(Gowasu told Zamasu to be ashamed of his actions since he is from Kaishin).

That's just a very bad translation from fan-subs. The 'Kaishin' that Gowas was referring to was 改心 ("To be reformed" or "correct behavior"), thinking that Zamas actually improved on his ideals.

[RalfHookman]

(Gowasu told Zamasu to be ashamed of his actions since he is from Kaishin).

That's just a very bad translation from fan-subs. The 'Kaishin' that Gowas was referring was 改心 ("To be reformed" or "correct behavior"), thinking that Zamas actually improved on his ideals.

Really? I'm so disappointed then. I remember people were saying that "Kaishin" was a typo in the subs and it supposed to be "Kaioshin". Up to now I believed he meant "Kaishin" from one of Toriyama's interviews.

Thanks for the correction!

[AlexJunin]

Maybe after Majin Buu destroys almost all Kaioshin of the universe 7, Zen'oh or Daishinkan decided to keep only one kaioshin in each universe.
Majin Buu born about 5 milion years before the actual story, maybe at that time the universe hierarchy was different, i theorize that Majin Buu was the reason that exists gods of destruction, maybe they're created to destroy that type of threat.

PS:Sorry for my english

[RalfHookman]

Maybe after Majin Buu destroys almost all Kaioshin of the universe 7, Zen'oh or Daishinkan decided to keep only one kaioshin in each universe.
Majin Buu born about 5 milion years before the actual story, maybe at that time the universe hierarchy was different, i theorize that Majin Buu was the reason that exists gods of destruction, maybe they're created to destroy that type of threat.

I like your idea. That would be great to see being shown in the show itself to clear this up. However, I still would prefer the idea of 5 Kaioshins for each universe. The reason is the life link between Kaioshin and God of Destruction. Since Kaioshins are far weaker than GoD, I would say having to kill more than 1 Kaioshin would be harder to eliminate God of Destruction in process.