Goku's "OOC" moments are compensation

[TheMikado]

FUNi's ultra-heroic portrayal of Goku wasn't good either, it was in fact amazingly cringeworthy at times, especially when he went full ham and condescending against his enemies. Take his speeches against Freeza, Kid Buu and later, Omega Shenron. This is as far away from Goku's actual character as it can get. While the selfish Goku isn't a perfect character by any means, I think I'd take him over the generic hero FUNi turned him into. While objectively speaking, a balanced mixture of these two portrayals would probably make the best and most appealing protagonist, keep in mind that Goku having flaws lets other characters shine and clean up the mess he creates. In GT Goku always did the right thing and never made mistakes, responded to threats with a full sense of gravity, all the while throwing condescending speeches left and right. He was essentially a Mary Sue - aided by him being basically deified in the ending. It's only natural the series had zero room for the others to do anything with such a perfect protagonist. Even Vegeta lost the trait that defined him up to that point - his willingness to surpass Goku, and existed only to lick his boots basically.

So if anything, this selfish Goku has the advantage of not being the end-all, unbeatable protagonist that he was never meant to be, but was played up to be by FUNi and even Toei themselves (to a lesser extent).

I totally agree the dub made Goku some generic unoriginal cardboard cut out even when he himself contributed to the problem like cell arc he could have prevented all of it by killing Gero before he finished making the androids but he didn't he was selfish and wanted to test his strength even though he knew that they were dangerous because some one from the fucking future ( trunks ) told him so

Point is Goku is not some guy who fights for justice or peace ( unless you're a really strong person who also want to destroy or takeover earth ) if he was he would be a cop like kuririn or a custom crusader like gohan but no that doesn't get his fight boner hard enough[/quote]


As others have pointed out the funimation Goku is what the majority of the fan base is familiar with. When they see the stand Goku takes against Vegeta and Frieza and all his speeches and his sacrifice following Cell everyone your international community is going to hate "new" Goku. Exaggerating the shitty aspects of his character is going to do him no favors in the international market.

Also I don't get the perfect protagonist angle in GT. Goku is just older and wiser and actually took on and mentored someone he wants to be his successor. It's seems like he's become more senseish while still being youthful. I'd expect that 10 years after Buu. I also like GT Vegeta b cause he's focused on being with his family and not chasing Goku around the universe, but still maintains his rivalry and pride. He's not Gokus lapdog, he just has better things to do then follow Goku around. This is why I liked Vegetas recent decision to stay with Bulma.

[HeroR]

This is all Toei's doing, just look at the recent movies BoG and RoF, Toriyama wrote himself, then look at Super you can see the difference. Some people thinks it's because of Toriyama's statement of how Toei portrayed Goku in the anime, I don't think so. Because that comment was made almost 20 years ago. I think it's because of commercial purposes, they seems to think Goku is more appealing this way to the kids.

Uh, actually, Toriyama repeated that statement almost word by word when doing interviews for Battle of Gods. Besides, if he was unhappy with Goku portrayal in Super, i'm pretty sure he would complain about it. You're forgetting the mistakes Goku commited in RoF AND didn't learn anything in the end. People should stop this "whatever i don't like is on Toei" nonsense.

And to think that would make Goku more popular among kids is ridiculous, they dig generic superhero shonen protagonists. Anyway, i could bet Toriyama is very happy to see "righteous GT superhero Goku" gone from the animation.

Not completely true. They love Luffy and he is far more selfish than Goku in many aspects.

Also, Goku did learn his lesson in Resurrection 'F'. Don't spare monsters like Freeza. He's still working on not dropping his guard during battle, which he hasn't done lately. He even swallowed his pride and worked and even fused with Vegeta.

[Avok]

I highly doubt Toriyama's input in the series is detailed enough to say that he's writing Goku.
The dubs meme needs to stop. Goku is out of character most of the time, and this is crystal clear if you read the manga.

Goku naiveness and fighting spirit always was portrayed in a subtle yet compelling manner. Specially the Goku of the latter parts of the manga, who was more of a wise mentor type of character.

[HeroR]

I highly doubt Toriyama's input in the series is detailed enough to say that he's writing Goku.
The dubs meme needs to stop. Goku is out of character most of the time, and this is crystal clear if you read the manga.

Goku naiveness and fighting spirit always was portrayed in a subtle yet compelling manner. Specially the Goku of the latter parts of the manga, who was more of a wise mentor type of character.

If he dislikes the way Toei writes Goku, he would complained about just like he did with Z, as simple as that. Especially since Toei used to hero Goku up and even did it in the retellings.

And you mean the Goku who fought Vegeta as an equal and awoken Majin Buu, instead of going Super Saiyan 3 and knocking Vegeta's butt out? Or the Goku who treated the raid against Babidi like game, along with everyone else, despite his two friends being stone?

[dbs fanboy]

Guys, i know that Goku in this episode may have been annoying for y'all, but let's not forget that in the last arc he got mad after knowing what happened to his family and in ep 77 he had really nice interactions with Goten, hell, he cared about the U6 team and wanted to do something when Champa was about to kill them all.

[Avok]

If he dislikes the way Toei writes Goku, he would complained about just like he did with Z, as simple as that. Especially since Toei used to hero Goku up and even did it in the retellings.

I don't think we can assume he's okay with it simply because they keep doing it. We don't even know what he thinks of the show as a whole let alone how the characters are written and interact with each other.

And you mean the Goku who fought Vegeta as an equal and awoken Majin Buu, instead of going Super Saiyan 3 and knocking Vegeta's butt out? Or the Goku who treated the raid against Babidi like game, along with everyone else, despite his two friends being stone?

Exactly. That's what how his desire to fight strong oponents was shown back then. Specific moments and little scenes, not a whole personality revolving around "fight, fight, fight".
Goku not defeating Majin Buu right away is proof of his naiveness but it also is a level of depth to his character that Toei has failed to achieve nowadays. The realisation that the problems of the living world were theirs alone and that even when he had the power he needed to let them fight for themselves is a very mature thing, even if it wasn't the right thing to do. He says it himself: it was a gamble.

[Majin Jator]

As others have pointed out the funimation Goku is what the majority of the fan base is familiar with. When they see the stand Goku takes against Vegeta and Frieza and all his speeches and his sacrifice following Cell everyone your international community is going to hate "new" Goku. Exaggerating the shitty aspects of his character is going to do him no favors in the international market.

No. That may be true for North America, but certainly not for the "majority of the fan base" or the "international market". Goku being OOC compared with the original series may be an issue, but the funimation dub certainly not. I certainly didn't know of its issues until I join kanzenshuu.

BTW, I think Goku reaction is understandable from someone used t the dragonballs since childhood, and he knows the Super dragon balls will go to the winner. But it's also true that the last episode did nothing to convey if Goku has a plan or has even considered this.

[HeroR]

If he dislikes the way Toei writes Goku, he would complained about just like he did with Z, as simple as that. Especially since Toei used to hero Goku up and even did it in the retellings.

I don't think we can assume he's okay with it simply because they keep doing it. We don't even know what he thinks of the show as a whole let alone how the characters are written and interact with each other.

And you mean the Goku who fought Vegeta as an equal and awoken Majin Buu, instead of going Super Saiyan 3 and knocking Vegeta's butt out? Or the Goku who treated the raid against Babidi like game, along with everyone else, despite his two friends being stone?

Exactly. That's what how his desire to fight strong oponents was shown back then. Specific moments and little scenes, not a whole personality revolving around "fight, fight, fight".
Goku not defeating Majin Buu right away is proof of his naiveness but it also is a level of depth to his character that Toei has failed to achieve nowadays. The realisation that the problems of the living world were theirs alone and that even when he had the power he needed to let them fight for themselves is a very mature thing, even if it wasn't the right thing to do. He says it himself: it was a gamble.

Toriyama wrote that he complained about Super. So it's easy to assumed if he hated Super's version of Goku, he would have spoken up. And Toei took him seriously since they don't used 'hero' Goku as much.

He didn't fight Vegeta all out and instead dragged the fight, which was the reason Buu awakened. And he didn't even want to fuse again to fight Kid Buu.

Your ignoring the other selfish stuff he did in the Saga and focusing only on him not killing Fat Buu.

[TheMikado]

Guys, i know that Goku in this episode may have been annoying for y'all, but let's not forget that in the last arc he got mad after knowing what happened to his family and in ep 77 he had really nice interactions with Goten, hell, he cared about the U6 team and wanted to do something when Champa was about to kill them all.

That's the problem though, you have fans defending Goku by saying why should he care about some strangers in another universe because he never did, except he actually does just two arcs before this.

[PsionicWarrior]

He didn't fight Vegeta all out and instead dragged the fight, which was the reason Buu awakened.

I believe he did this because the fight wouldn't be interesting nor much entertaining for him if he turned SSJ3. Well, that's what I keep telling myself.

[Avok]

Toriyama wrote that he complained about Super. So it's easy to assumed if he hated Super's version of Goku, he would have spoken up. And Toei took him seriously since they don't used 'hero' Goku as much.

So everything that happens in Super is okay because Toriyama allow it to happen, is what you're saying?
As I said, I doubt he has that much input in the final product. We don't even know what he complained about.

He didn't fight Vegeta all out and instead dragged the fight, which was the reason Buu awakened. And he didn't even want to fuse again to fight Kid Buu.
Your ignoring the other selfish stuff he did in the Saga and focusing only on him not killing Fat Buu.

I'm not saying he isn't, but the way that selfishness is presented is the problem. He always liked to fight back then, but a whole personality revolving around the "fight fight fight" motto is far from the Goku of the manga.
Even his interaction with other characters and his reaction to certain events is different. Yes, the basic traits are the same, but they're overexagerated to the limit.

[HeroR]

Toriyama wrote that he complained about Super. So it's easy to assumed if he hated Super's version of Goku, he would have spoken up. And Toei took him seriously since they don't used 'hero' Goku as much.

So everything that happens in Super is okay because Toriyama allow it to happen, is what you're saying?
As I said, I doubt he has that much input in the final product. We don't even know what he complained about.

He didn't fight Vegeta all out and instead dragged the fight, which was the reason Buu awakened. And he didn't even want to fuse again to fight Kid Buu.
Your ignoring the other selfish stuff he did in the Saga and focusing only on him not killing Fat Buu.

I'm not saying he isn't, but the way that selfishness is presented is the problem. He always liked to fight back then, but a whole personality revolving around the "fight fight fight" motto is far from the Goku of the manga.
Even his interaction with other characters and his reaction to certain events is different. Yes, the basic traits are the same, but they're overexagerated to the limit.

Whether you find it okay or not is preference. I personally don't mind. And you having doubts doesn't negate that Toriyama complained about Super since it was doing something he didn't like and he complained that Toei missed the 'poison' in Goku's personality.

It really isn't since Goku's life is all about fighting. And in Super we see him actually do other things like hold a job and is very good at it, spend time with his family, and is okay with Gohan not being a fighter. In Z, almost all of Goku's scene time was training and fighting. When he was on scene anyway.

[Avok]

Whether you find it okay or not is preference. I personally don't mind. And you having doubts doesn't negate that Toriyama complained about Super since it was doing something he didn't like and he complained that Toei missed the 'poison' in Goku's personality.

He mentioned that he complained about his personality in 1996, though. And he specifically said "elements of poison that slip in and out", meaning subtle and little things like the ones I've mentioned, not his whole character.

It really isn't since Goku's life is all about fighting. And in Super we see him actually do other things like hold a job and is very good at it, spend time with his family, and is okay with Gohan not being a fighter. In Z, almost all of Goku's scene time was training and fighting. When he was on scene anyway.

I fail to see where you're getting at.

[BlueBasilisk]

Maybe they're trying to wean the audience off of Goku so they can move on to The Adventures of Uub.

[Cipher]

I don't think Toriyama, per the opening post, is over-emphasizing anything. I think he finally gave Toei an outline where the conflict draws from character motivations interacting with all the elements of the new material, and Super's scripts are handling it in their usual hamfisted, haphazard way.

I can only imagine an enormous gulf between how Toriyama would script this material and the version we get in Super. This is textbook "good idea, bad execution," to borrow the fandom-approved assessment of GT.

Avok is right. The style, quality, and consistency of characterization we get in the manga are miles away from Super's average. There's no reason this material couldn't, or shouldn't, play well, but in the hands of Super's writers, it doesn't. At least not with any consistency.

I think this is where a lot of the misunderstandings, complaining about complaints, etc., stem from. People see a Goku whose broad-stroke motivations are in line with the manga, or see detractors, of, say episode 78 having previously argued for his selfishness being in character, and when it feels off in an episode, immediately the responses of "Well, you said he was in character last episode, so what is this?" or "He's always been selfish, obviously!" rear their heads. This ignores, of course, the actual execution -- in tone, in dialogue, in consistency between serialized chapters -- that goes into portraying those traits. Which is all to say it's a completely viable critique to point out that his cavalier attitude regarding possible consequences in something like episode 77 feels authentic, while his glib reactions in 78 do not.

It all comes down to Goku not existing in a binary of "selfish=in character," "altruistic=not." Execution and nuance matter. Simply portraying selfishness and naivete do not entail capturing Toriyama's Goku.

This is also obviously not a case of "dub Goku vs. Japanese Goku," though I can hardly believe that needs to be said. It's a case of "Super's Goku vs. Toriyama's Goku," or, compounding the problem, frequently a case of "Super's Goku vs. the same Goku last week."

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool fan of the Japanese version and Toriyama's writing, even beyond Dragon Ball, and I have misgivings with Goku's characterization in Super.

[Lord Beerus]

I gotta side with Cipher to a degree.

I've actually been fine with Super's characterisation for the most part, but the writing team have fumbled on a few occasions with the execution. The range of Goku's selfishness and naivety in the original series is handled well for the most. In Super, it's fine, but can get bit too exaggerated and just outright mishandled. I mean, Goku was outright fucking around with Beerus, in regards to even talking to Zeno, knowing the potential dangers it could bring, but he still did it anyway. And ironically, I kinda like that. I think Goku acting in such a flippant manner is what makes him such a unique and endearing character. He never really strays for what he wants deep down, and that's a challenge. Even if the path to that challenge endangers the lives of billions of people. I also really adore it when behaves with such a morally ambiguous attitude because it open avenues in the story that wouldn't be possible if Goku acted like your usual stand-up superhero-esque kind of protagonist.

The handling of Goku selfishness for looking for a good battle is very allusive to what we saw in the Saiyan arc. Goku got a taste of an incredible power from a formidable foe, just as he did with Hit in the Champa arc, when the idea of facing an incredibly strong foe like him present itself, with Zeno proposing the idea on all 12 universe taking part in a tournament, Goku latched onto that idea and never let go. So to Super's credit, the buildup to Goku's selfish acts is well done but entirely excusable.

Now how the characters in-universe react to Goku's selfishness... that's a whole different story. And actually something I've always had a bi more of an issue with throughout the series. I can only recall on instance where somebody actually called out Goku for his naivety and selfishness and that was during the Cell Games. Now I think some people will resent Goku over the circumstances of the tournament, and Gohan even berated Goku a little for what he had done, given he got the ball rolling with the tournament and even reminded Zeno after he forgot about it. But I don't think anyone will really hate or want to kill Goku because his intentions were just to have a tournament and while he was warned about Zeno's unpredictable nature by both Beerus and Whis, I don't think he would have expected it to get as extreme as it did.

But in all honesty, and this is where handling of Goku's naivety comes into question, he really should have known better. He was informed about how Zeno destroyed universes for petty reasons in the past. And he literally witnesses Zeno casually destroy a multiverse on a whim, even though the circumstances in that instance were understandable as it was done to kill Zamasu and prevent his immortal soul from spreading through the multiverse in Future Trunks timeline and the main timeline. Nevertheless, it happened. And Goku was given a first hand experience of knowing what Zeno is capable of just on a whim.

After all is said and done though... any fuck ups as a result of Goku's actions will just be sorted out with a set of Dragon Balls. And we're back to square one.

[Vegito Black]

You guys take a show based on toleit humor, screaming, and epic fight scenes to seriously. Goku is Goku regardless if he's an asshole or not he's our asshole.

[Razorsaw]

Everyone in Universe 7 is more concerned with the idea that THEY'LL get wiped out than they are about universes 1-8 and 10. Beerus, Shin, even Gohan have stressed he needs to take responsibility for the severity of the situation, NO ONE has called him out for what might happen to the other realities.

[Cipher]

You guys take a show based on toleit humor, screaming, and epic fight scenes to seriously. Goku is Goku regardless if he's an asshole or not he's our asshole.

It is all those things, but the manga always treated its characters sincerely and consistently. Surprisingly so, for the type of content it covers. That's one of the things that keeps me coming back to it and to Toriyama's work in general.

[FortuneSSJ]

In the end fans will accept whatever Goku version they want him to be. A lot of people look up to Goku as their favourite childhood superhero and now they are getting mental breakdowns, because he isn't the cliché superhero they thought he was.

Kid Goku was ruthless and didn't hesitate to kill any villain who crossed his way.

In the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, Goku grew up and got character development. He gave a senzu and spared the villain for the first time, because he wanted to haver another fight with him. Even though that villain was the reeincarnation of Piccolo Daimao, who threatened the Earth before and tried to kill him.

In Saiyan arc, Goku asks Krillin to let Vegeta go away, a evil Saiyan who wanted to kill them all and destroy the Earth, only to have another fight with him again.
Even though all Krillin wanted to do was kill him right there.

In Freeza arc, Goku gave a little of ki to Freeza in order for him to survive, the villain that killed his best friend and almost killed the entire Saiyan and Namekian races. And later could have killed more people if FT Trunks didn't arrive at time.
The same Goku refused to come home right away after that fight because he was training to get stronger, even though his family was worried and wanted to be with him.

In Cell arc, Goku sent Gohan to fight Cell and almost got him killed because he didn't told him his plan.
The same Goku gave a senzu to Cell, because he wanted a fair fight even though their lives were in danger.

In Buu arc, Goku didn't kill Majin Buu in their first fight because he wanted Goten and Trunks to do it. And then later Buu killed almost everyone and destroyed the Earth.
Something that wouldn't have happened if Goku had killed Majin Buu in their first fight.

In EOZ, Goku left his family and friends behind because he wanted to train Uub, a stranger, so this kid could protect the Earth in the future and Goku could fight him when he had gotten stronger.

Goku was always selfish and puts his enjoyment for fighting above anything else. He also have done some questionable decisions in the past.
It's not like he doesn't care about the others, but it's not like he doesn't fight for the sake of himself first. That's his top priority.

People that criticize Goku's selfish behaviour in Super, while justifying all his actions in DBZ just sound unconvincing and come out as hypocrites.

In BOG Movie/Champa arc, Goku learns there are another 11 Universes and there could be much more strong guys out there.
Looking to his history, how he would react to that?! Of course he would get exicted.

As for the current Universe Survival arc, he's most likely to get the Super Dragon Balls as a prize and restore all Universes. They are there to help the plot like always.
It's not like he knew this would happen and this tournament between the 12 Universes was an idea of Zeno himself. Goku just agreed with him and got excited with the idea, because of course that's who Goku is.