If Super didn't have as much bad art/animation from it's first half, would the series as a whole have less hate today?

[superfan2024]

All in the title.

[Alee9977]

When people knew there was going to be a reboot of the two movies they all got mad and the bad animation in RoF only helped people to have more hate towards those arcs.

[JulieYBM]

Perhaps...or perhaps not. The production hasn't exactly improved all that much--if at all--so I can't see things being any different than they are now.

[The gr]

No, even if the golden frieza arc had good animation,it will still be garbage, with stupid plot holes,zero tension and the fact they switched an interesting character to a shitty Gag character,I can't believe I'm the only criticizing Ginyu-tagoma

and beerus arc is the same case golden frieza,it will still be a mediocre or average arc with awful padding but is still better than golden frieza arc,at the end of the day,people will still hate the retelling because it did a half assed job of doing an adaptation regardless of the good animation

[Saikyo no Senshi]

If DBS had much better planning there would be less criticisms at least from the people who are informed regarding production matters. If Chioka wasn't screwed and he was given the time to implement his vision I don't know about others, but I certainly would've been enjoying the show a lot more despite the terrible designs.

I don't think my opinion on DBS now has changed that much. It is still a rushed mess like it was in the first half. Yeah, we got some good staff who on occasions did impressive work, but overall though it's still not up to the mark. I don't think the memes that started after #5 will ever stop. So, yeah maybe if #5 didn't collapse like it did, the "hate" would've been less.

[Faisal Shourov]

No, the movie remake arcs were always going to be a disaster. No amount of good animation would've saved RoF Arc

[JulieYBM]

No, the movie remake arcs were always going to be a disaster. No amount of good animation would've saved RoF Arc

No amount of improved quality for the aspects of film making that were lacking in time and talent would improve a television series lacking from time and talent?

[Ajay]

Do you mean with regards to the show itself as a whole, or just its animation?

The show would still have been met with heavy criticism, I'm sure. There are plenty of narrative issues that pretty visuals cannot mask. Take a look at the reaction to episode 66; gorgeous episode, but the plot points weren't universally well received. Again, episode 57 was wonderful looking, but the power nuts weren't happy over Trunks' abilities. Somebody's always going to take issue with something.

If you mean the animation alone, then you wouldn't have quite as many 'experts' scrutinising every aspect of it (I say with total self-awareness!). Sure, like any show in this format, there'd be on days and and off days, and some people wouldn't understand that, but I can't imagine it'd be the talking point it is just about every week.

I don't really want to open up the can of worms as to whether Super is much better now since that's not what OP is asking, but I mean, it absolutely is. Sure, it's not in the place it should be in, but it's demonstrably better than it was. I'm amazed that's up for debate. Directors can actually direct their own storyboards now, fight scenes actually have some worth, and the finales have been significantly stronger with each passing arc (F, aside). Yeah, these talents aren't reaching their maximum output due to the endless weight of shoddy pre-production, but let's actually be fair to the series and its staff, their output is much better than it was.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

No, the movie remake arcs were always going to be a disaster. No amount of good animation would've saved RoF Arc

No amount of improved quality for the aspects of film making that were lacking in time and talent would improve a television series lacking from time and talent?

He's saying that far more than visuals played to the detriment of that arc. I assume he's referencing the Ginyu Filler. That's really the only thing that was vastly worse than the movie, other than visuals.

[Faisal Shourov]

No, the movie remake arcs were always going to be a disaster. No amount of good animation would've saved RoF Arc

No amount of improved quality for the aspects of film making that were lacking in time and talent would improve a television series lacking from time and talent?

Nope. Super started within less than a year after RoF came out. The movie remakes are complete waste of time. Movies have higher budgets and longer schedule, if Toei wrote a movie that's lacking in time and talent, they couldn't fix it in a low budget tv show which is animated by newbies. People hated the movies arcs even before they were released. Toei drags everything if you have watched One Piece

[Jinzoningen MULE]

...if Toei wrote a movie that's lacking in time and talent, they couldn't fix it in a low budget tv show which is animated by newbies.

Didn't think that this notion was still around. No, they aren't newbies, that was a lie. These animators have been around for at least a decade.

[superfan2024]

I edited the title just a little to give the thread a little less confusion (if it helps).

[Faisal Shourov]

...if Toei wrote a movie that's lacking in time and talent, they couldn't fix it in a low budget tv show which is animated by newbies.

Didn't think that this notion was still around. No, they aren't newbies, that was a lie. These animators have been around for at least a decade.

So, speaking of Dragon Ball Super: what's up with the animation issues that have been happening?

Hayashida: The criticism we've received has been way too overblown. Someone put a few video sequences that looked bad onto the Internet, and people focused on them when talking about an entire series. You can not criticize an entire product by only looking at a few sequences.

The animators responsible for those scenes are newbies who just started working at this level in the industry, which means their skills are evolving right now. Anyway, they are good animators, and I just do not understand why they get picked on to such a degree.

This is from Anime News Network btw

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature ... all/.99269

[Jinzoningen MULE]

So, speaking of Dragon Ball Super: what's up with the animation issues that have been happening?

Hayashida: The criticism we've received has been way too overblown. Someone put a few video sequences that looked bad onto the Internet, and people focused on them when talking about an entire series. You can not criticize an entire product by only looking at a few sequences.

The animators responsible for those scenes are newbies who just started working at this level in the industry, which means their skills are evolving right now. Anyway, they are good animators, and I just do not understand why they get picked on to such a degree.

This is from Anime News Network btw

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature ... all/.99269

I know that this exists, I'm saying that it was a lie. You can look into the history of every last animator, and not one of them are novices by any stretch.

[JulieYBM]

No, the movie remake arcs were always going to be a disaster. No amount of good animation would've saved RoF Arc

No amount of improved quality for the aspects of film making that were lacking in time and talent would improve a television series lacking from time and talent?

He's saying that far more than visuals played to the detriment of that arc. I assume he's referencing the Ginyu Filler. That's really the only thing that was vastly worse than the movie, other than visuals.

They don't know that. We receive a television series through it's storytelling (dialogue, acting, sound effects, music, animation, storyboarding and layouts), not it's story. The Gi'nyuu stuff would've been funny if it had more time for its staff to work on it.

Nope. Super started within less than a year after RoF came out. The movie remakes are complete waste of time. Movies have higher budgets and longer schedule, if Toei wrote a movie that's lacking in time and talent, they couldn't fix it in a low budget tv show which is animated by newbies. People hated the movies arcs even before they were released. Toei drags everything if you have watched One Piece

The Golden Freeza arc was a big improvement on the film. Gokuu's battle with Freeza is filled with more tension and less Yamamuro. Fight scenes aren't shot at eye-level and shots actually hold impact. Tagoma and Gi'nyuu get to have funny scenes. Gohan gets to have the shit kicked out of him. Kuririn has a sub-plot. There's an deeper look into the training that Gokuu and Vegeta did under Whis.

The only really bad change is Jako not doing anything during the battle. Otherwise, it's a much better take on the movie's storyline.

[Ajay]

This is from Anime News Network btw

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature ... all/.99269

Hi! This is in fact PR speak. As Jinzoningen MULE says, you can very literally look at the history of Super's animators and see that this isn't the case.

It's understandable that they'd not want to say, "Hey... Yeah, we totally started this show way before we should have. Sorry!"

Frustratingly, it's lead to huge misconceptions. If you're interested in understanding why Super is the way it is, I'm gonna be bold and recommend my own video on the subject.

[Draconic]

None of my problems with the first arc really have anything to do with animation, since it was fine, episode 5 excluded. Sure, if episode 5 didn't collapse I don't think there would be all the hate to stuff like episode 9, which, though bad, is again passable and in line with the standard Dragon Ball has always had.

The RoF arc, however, improved in every way the story of the movie. Episode 24, for example, is the worst animated episode of Super, but the characters are better written, Freeza especially. Not to mention we know that some things were scrapped because of the schedule, so who knows what they would have expanded upon. Another example is keeping Tagoma alive and giving him an interesting arc. With a better animated fight scene he would have probably become a memorable character. Even Ginyu's return might be looked on with better eyes if he actually did something cool. I don't think good animation would make it a great arc, but it would be far from the trash it ended up being.

The U6 arc really would have benefited from good animation the most. It's a tournament so the fights are the biggest draw but until Cabba vs Vegeta there is no particularly stand out moment. Just think of the Botamo fight, which sets up a great situation and the pay off is hilarious, but due to the fact it's unwatchable, all of that is lost. Frost's fight with Piccolo is another example. Great idea, great fight, but the corners cut during it drag it down a lot. By comparasion, the Hit fights aren't the best written things, but the fact they are well animated moments done in a grand and exciting way makes them beloved.
And don't get me started on Super Shenron's debut, that could have been a stand out moment of the whole franchise as a whole, akin to the original Shenron's debut, but ends up a joke due to the horrible non-animation

So yeah, good animation used in key moments would have helped Super a lot. Sure, not everybody would be pleased with everything, since that's impossible, but great presentation can do a lot for any story, even not so good ones. Think of Z, which has a ton of ugly shit, plot holes, inconsistencies, but the stand out moments are so good they more than make up for that, in huge part due to how much they stand out art wise.

And just as an unrelated side note (though important to say imo) the poor schedule that plagues the animation of Super to this day also affects the script writing, maybe not as much but definetley a lot. If you need to rush out a script in order for the animators and storyboarders to be able to put out the episode in time, you don't have the "luxury" to refine everything. So if you change the question to "Would a better schedule help the series?" the animation is not the only thing that would improve, but the writing too.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Y'know, I would be on board with the "RoF Arc was better", since it largely is. However, I can't in good conscience advocate someone watch a longer version of that story. Better scripts, storyboards, higher highs, etc. can only take you so far when the core narrative is the least interesting thing ever.

[dbs fanboy]

Actually, i don't think that even if it had a good pre production schedule from the beginning (not implying that it's good right now), it would be safe from "hate". Nostalgia it's also a big factor.
I mean, look at Thundercats (2011 i guess), it looked better visually, and when i watched some episodes from the originals and compared them with the new version, i discovered that the reboot was actually better than the original; and yet, a lot of people complained bashing it in a similar way to those db fans on youtube.

Hell BoG was one of the best movies in this franchise, with one of the best animated shots in a long time, new interesting characters, comedy and nice fight scenes and a lot of people complained. Some of them even said that shida's cut was terrible animated and that the Z (some even said that Bio Broly was more interesting) was better in this aspect. And we're talking about BoG here, not RoF or super's BoG .

[superfan2024]

Do you mean with regards to the show itself as a whole, or just its animation?

The show as a whole (which includes story, art/animation, character, etc).