Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by Arg » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:17 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:Well i think the biggest problem of all is the life link between Beerus and our generation Shin specifically. It was revealed that Beerus was affraid "Shin" might die, however Elder Kai is still around. Considering Beerus was around during the time Elder Kai was in duty, shouldn't his life link apply to him aswell? Why just Shin? I think it would be better if the Life Link should apply to the last Kaioshin to stay alive. I.E kill all of them and Beerus dies, and have 1 of the 5 surivive and Beerus is still fine. (Doesn't matter who)

As for the other universes only having 1 Kaioshin, this could easily be explained, both from an in-universe perspective, aswell as an out of universe perspective. In-universe: Universe 7 was unique among them in that it has 5 Kaioshins. Out of universe: Toriyama either forgot, or simply retconned it. (Which seems more likely)
Shin probably got promoted to the rank of grand kai somewhere in between as elder kai was trapped inside the sword. They probably pass the title of grand kai (along with the rings) to the most appropriate candidate somewhere along the line; just like Zamasu was somewhat close to succeeding Gowasu. Gowasu would not necessarily have to die or be close to death before he could pass on his mandate/rings, just a straight out gut feeling that he is overdue his function would be enough.

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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by Beek King » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:21 pm

Thinking about this topic further, I wonder how Toyotaro will handle it in his version of the story. He's not the one to forget a detail as important as the fact that U7 had multiple Kaioshins.
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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:26 pm

Shin just says there were 5 Supreme Kais back in the day, but he never says whether there were supposed to be or not. It's probably a flexible number. All the other universes have one Supreme Kai in attendance at the tournament but none of the others bat an eye at Universe 7 having Shin and the Old Kai there.

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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by Khin » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:49 pm

Given that the Grand Priest said a few episodes ago that Zen’ou thinks there are too many universe, the most plausible (in-universe) explanation for the lack of 5 Kaioshin in the other universes is mostly the same reason as that. He probably thought having 60 Kaioshin is way too much, which I also agree to.

Probably, similar to how they determine which universe will be kept through the their “mortal level”, it’s likely that the they determined which Kaioshin will be kept through various things like competence — with the exception of Universe 7, which only have a single Kaioshin thanks to Majin Boo and Bibidi.

The most likely reason out of universe wise is Toriyama simply retconed the whole 4 Kaioshin and 1 Dai Kaioshin system. It’ll be a pain to have 60 Kaioshin. Not to mention having 5 of them is incredibly unnecessary. Having only 1 per universe would be neat, since the Kaioshin is considered as the counterpart of the God of Destruction, which only have 1 per universe.

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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by Deathbringer » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:50 pm

Doesn't the explanation of them being "Shin-jin" (Shin beings? Shinians?) that all come from a tree still stand? It's true that every universe at the tournament only has one Kaioshin apart from universe 7 but it's not like they've stated that this is the case for all universes, for example Universe 10 used to have Zamasu and Gowasu, and in that arc it was mentioned that Zamasu was promoted from Kaio to Kaioshin. And like it was mentioned earlier, maybe the Kaioshin at the tournament are actually the Dai Kaioshin of their universe (which would mean that Shin is the Dai Kaioshin of U7?)

My real questions are:
- Who is Old Kaioshin meant to be? Was he just the previous generation of Kaioshin that got replaced by the current one after he went missing (in fact, since Beerus was the one who sealed him in the Z sword he probably was the one who chose the next Kaioshin so his life would be protected)

- Who is Kibito exactly? Is he really just a Shin-jin who functions as a servant? If he's strong enough to be a Kaio or a Kaioshin then why isn't he one? Why didn't Gowasu have his own attendant like Kibito, he always made Zamasu do everything like make the tea and rub his shoulders.

But yeah, one of the things I'm thankful towards Toyotaro for is that he makes little additions to explain some of the plotholes and/or just make it all make a bit more sense in general.

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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by Blackstripe » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:48 pm

The Grand Kaioshin was the only true Kaioshin of Universe 7, and the others were in actuality just his apprentices. It was an unusual situation where he had more than one that he considered qualified to succeed him, so he tasked them each with overseeing a quadrant of the universe in order to determine which would be his ideal successor.

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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by Asura » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:55 pm

Blackstripe wrote:The Grand Kaioshin was the only true Kaioshin of Universe 7, and the others were in actuality just his apprentices. It was an unusual situation where he had more than one that he considered qualified to succeed him, so he tasked them each with overseeing a quadrant of the universe in order to determine which would be his ideal successor.
I'm not sure where you got that information from, but the official Viz translation of the Dragon Ball Z Manga, Vol. 26, doesn't state anything even remotely close to that.

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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by julianix » Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:44 pm

Until they say otherwise there is 5 kaioshin for each universe.

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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:31 pm

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:I don't think the previous Kaioshin system has been forgotten (certainly not by Toyotaro anyway), but I do think it's being retconned for simplicity. Having a single Kaioshin just removes excess clutter and makes things easier when it comes to having to create all these new designs.

As for why Universe 7 had 5 of them, at this point I chalk it up to Beerus if I have to give it some sort of explanation. His Universe is the second lowest in terms of Human/Mortal Level, probably because he doesn't really do his job. He's often sleeping for long periods and destroys whatever he wants based on his mood, rather than specifically trying to wipe out evil or other low-level beings. It's also mentioned that the Kaioshin have no idea how much Beerus will destroy when he's awake. So perhaps Universe 7 employed extra Kaioshin to balance that, allowing them a better chance of creating more high-level life and being able to TRY and stand against threats like Boo when then arise.
Didn't one of the post-BoG/pre-Super interviews have Toriyama saying that there were only 3 Kaioshin in the universe? I seem to recall the forum erupting over something like that a few years back.

Edit: Yeah, I thought I remembered this.
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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:11 am

Kamiccolo9 wrote:Didn't one of the post-BoG/pre-Super interviews have Toriyama saying that there were only 3 Kaioshin in the universe? I seem to recall the forum erupting over something like that a few years back.

Edit: Yeah, I thought I remembered this.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... mysteries/
Yeah. I avoided mentioning that because, like a LOT of things from the pre and post release of BoG, it's probably been ignored for an even newer take on the information. I figure if the "extra Kaioshin sprouts up if an acting one dies" was still in effect, it would have been mentioned during all the Kaioshin-Hakaishin life link info dump. Like when the staff dipped into the supplemental info for Beerus sealing Elder Kaioshin references.
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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by Tectorman » Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:33 am

Lord Frieza wrote:Well Zen-Oh says there are too many universe at the moment. Maybe sometime after Buu's first rampage, Zen-Oh decided that 5 kaioshin to run a universe was to many as well and decided to cut it down.

Shin seems to do an ok job by himself in the grand scheme of things even if he's not all that strong, that could have been proof enough for Zen chan.
Anyone ever think that the whole point of Buu was (that is to say, will later be explained to have been) to weed out the unnecessary Supreme Kais.

We know that Bibidi didn't actually create Buu, but merely found him in the universe and figured out how to use him. Buu was stated to actually be an entity (or a portion of an entity) from much farther back in the universe's history.

Thing is, that's kind of a big piece of background material to not do anything with, and they haven't yet.

So maybe we're going to find out that, back in the day, the Omni King (or one of his direct servants) created Buu in universe 7 specifically to pare down the unnecessary Supreme Kais. In fact, probably one of the Omni King's servants, in that the plan (if true) would have required future knowledge of Bibidi's existence and a high degree of patience. Heck, that might have been how the other six universes got destroyed, by the Buus that were created there.
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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by Nejishiki » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:25 am

Currently, Grand Kaioshin is Boo's single influence. The South Kaioshin influence died off with the pure Boo (with Boo directly killing the others). So far, whenever the Kaioshin/Hakaishin connection is brought up, it seems that only Universe 7 Kaioshin is acknowledged as Beerus' concern. I'm fairly certain the inactive Grand Kaioshin influencing Boo has nothing to do with Beerus now.
Deathbringer wrote:Doesn't the explanation of them being "Shin-jin" (Shin beings? Shinians?) that all come from a tree still stand? It's true that every universe at the tournament only has one Kaioshin apart from universe 7 but it's not like they've stated that this is the case for all universes, for example Universe 10 used to have Zamasu and Gowasu, and in that arc it was mentioned that Zamasu was promoted from Kaio to Kaioshin. And like it was mentioned earlier, maybe the Kaioshin at the tournament are actually the Dai Kaioshin of their universe (which would mean that Shin is the Dai Kaioshin of U7?)

My real questions are:
- Who is Old Kaioshin meant to be? Was he just the previous generation of Kaioshin that got replaced by the current one after he went missing (in fact, since Beerus was the one who sealed him in the Z sword he probably was the one who chose the next Kaioshin so his life would be protected)

- Who is Kibito exactly? Is he really just a Shin-jin who functions as a servant? If he's strong enough to be a Kaio or a Kaioshin then why isn't he one? Why didn't Gowasu have his own attendant like Kibito, he always made Zamasu do everything like make the tea and rub his shoulders.

But yeah, one of the things I'm thankful towards Toyotaro for is that he makes little additions to explain some of the plotholes and/or just make it all make a bit more sense in general.
With Zamasu's continuous Kaio status (he didn't undergo the proper Kaioshin promotion), I think the Kaioshin are considered a specific race, yeah. I don't think the animated series acknowledged Toriyama's tidbit, if that's what you meant. These days, Old Kaioshin seems to act as Universe 7 Kaioshin's adviser. As mentioned earlier, the story doesn't seem to acknowledge him for any lifeline. Kibito's role is in his name: he's an assistant! Zamasu acted as Gowasu's assistant, too. We don't know enough about Universe 10 to determine who Zamasu succeeded, if anyone. I gather Zamasu took priority over the hypothetical candidate though. At any rate, a lack of detail rarely makes a plot hole.

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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by Asura » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:23 pm

It's quite interesting (and refreshing) to see the discussion and wide variety of replies going on here...

When I asked this question a few months back on the /r/dbz subreddit, I was downvoted to 40% and told that the answer to my question was very obvious and simple and that I should have been able to figure it out on my own. :?

Clearly though, the answer is not as black and white as I was told. Some things have been answered, although others remain yet to be seen. Perhaps Toyotaro's adaptation or future episodes of Super may be able to answer the remaining questions still up for discussion here.

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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by Zephyr » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:24 pm

Asura wrote:
Blackstripe wrote:The Grand Kaioshin was the only true Kaioshin of Universe 7, and the others were in actuality just his apprentices. It was an unusual situation where he had more than one that he considered qualified to succeed him, so he tasked them each with overseeing a quadrant of the universe in order to determine which would be his ideal successor.
I'm not sure where you got that information from, but the official Viz translation of the Dragon Ball Z Manga, Vol. 26, doesn't state anything even remotely close to that.
I think he's just speculating/coming up with an explanation. That's the theory I'm kicking around as well, right now.

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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by Booze Sama » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:44 pm

I thought it was weird that only Zamasu and Gowasu were the only Kais of U10. Remember, Elder Kai is only around because of the plot otherwise it would've just been a E Supreme Kai.

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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by Asura » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:49 am

Booze Sama wrote:I thought it was weird that only Zamasu and Gowasu were the only Kais of U10. Remember, Elder Kai is only around because of the plot otherwise it would've just been a E Supreme Kai.
Zamasu and Gowasu are the equivalent of Kibito and Supreme Kai, respectively.

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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:14 pm

Asura wrote:Zamasu and Gowasu are the equivalent of Kibito and Supreme Kai, respectively.
No, Zamasu is Kaio of North and an apprentice of Kaioshin, not an attendant.

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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by Asura » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:31 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Asura wrote:Zamasu and Gowasu are the equivalent of Kibito and Supreme Kai, respectively.
No, Zamasu is Kaio of North and an apprentice of Kaioshin, not an attendant.
That's just being technical. What's the difference between an apprentice and an attendant anyway? Both of their duties are the same, which is to eat shit from their respective masters whom do absolutely fuck-all nothing, as evident by their mortal levels being so shit both universes are forced to be in the tournament.

Despite being the North Kaio, Zamasu's job was identical to Kibito.

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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by Blackstripe » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:40 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Asura wrote:
Blackstripe wrote:The Grand Kaioshin was the only true Kaioshin of Universe 7, and the others were in actuality just his apprentices. It was an unusual situation where he had more than one that he considered qualified to succeed him, so he tasked them each with overseeing a quadrant of the universe in order to determine which would be his ideal successor.
I'm not sure where you got that information from, but the official Viz translation of the Dragon Ball Z Manga, Vol. 26, doesn't state anything even remotely close to that.
I think he's just speculating/coming up with an explanation. That's the theory I'm kicking around as well, right now.
Correct. I thought that much was obvious, but I guess not.

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Re: Why was Universe 7 the only universe with 5 Supreme Kais?

Post by Asura » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:54 pm

Blackstripe wrote:
Zephyr wrote:
Asura wrote:
I'm not sure where you got that information from, but the official Viz translation of the Dragon Ball Z Manga, Vol. 26, doesn't state anything even remotely close to that.
I think he's just speculating/coming up with an explanation. That's the theory I'm kicking around as well, right now.
Correct. I thought that much was obvious, but I guess not.
Well, you kind of stated it as fact. You never made it clear that you were theorycrafting or presenting an opinion.

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