Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by LightBing » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:20 pm

blain218 wrote:
LightBing wrote:I want to add some details that I think are important which people aren't mentioning.

First one: Freeza asked Frost if he had any other form. Meaning Golden which would immediately put Frost in the elites in this rumble. That adds much more value to Frost from Freeza's perspective and easily makes Kuririn and Tenshinhan sacrifices even more reasonable that they already are, as explained by TheMikado.

Second: Freeza's plan saved Gohan from going full-power, that's another win to add to those already mentioned.

Freeza's plan in the manga is just full of positives for Universe 7. I'm kinda chocked how well Toyotarõ was able to pull this off, I hope he continues taking these risks and doesn't get influenced by angry fans demanding wins from Tenshinhan and Kuririn.
What's the point of even bringing Tien and Krillin along if they aren't gonna accomplish anything? Its like people will rationalize every bad decision the manga does :roll:
They served a purpose. Like Piccolo and Kuririn did when they were spit on by Dabra and were literal statues for chapters or dozens of time something of this sort happened. What you're saying is that you think Dragon Ball is full of bad decisions because it doesn't cater to the secondary characters. Which is fine but the manga is just being Dragon Ball while the anime went for the fanservice route.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by blain218 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:29 pm

LightBing wrote:
blain218 wrote:
LightBing wrote:I want to add some details that I think are important which people aren't mentioning.

First one: Freeza asked Frost if he had any other form. Meaning Golden which would immediately put Frost in the elites in this rumble. That adds much more value to Frost from Freeza's perspective and easily makes Kuririn and Tenshinhan sacrifices even more reasonable that they already are, as explained by TheMikado.

Second: Freeza's plan saved Gohan from going full-power, that's another win to add to those already mentioned.

Freeza's plan in the manga is just full of positives for Universe 7. I'm kinda chocked how well Toyotarõ was able to pull this off, I hope he continues taking these risks and doesn't get influenced by angry fans demanding wins from Tenshinhan and Kuririn.
What's the point of even bringing Tien and Krillin along if they aren't gonna accomplish anything? Its like people will rationalize every bad decision the manga does :roll:
They served a purpose. Like Piccolo and Kuririn did when they were spit on by Dabra and were literal statues for chapters or dozens of time something of this sort happened. What you're saying is that you think Dragon Ball is full of bad decisions because it doesn't cater to the secondary characters. Which is fine but the manga is just being Dragon Ball while the anime went for the fanservice route.
The "fanservice" route is still better than not giving them anything to do at all. Just because the original series does something doesn't make justified.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by LightBing » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:51 pm

blain218 wrote:
The "fanservice" route is still better than not giving them anything to do at all. Just because the original series does something doesn't make justified.
That's your opinion. I rather have them as tool who serve a narrative purpose than giving them moments because fans think they deserve it, which might or might not affect negativity the structure of an arc. If it doesn't better for everyone, something like that rarely happens.

I agree with your second sentence but not in this specific case. Dragon Ball is that much better because Mr.Toriyama never catered to it's fans.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by blain218 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:57 pm

LightBing wrote:
blain218 wrote:
The "fanservice" route is still better than not giving them anything to do at all. Just because the original series does something doesn't make justified.
That's your opinion. I rather have them as tool who serve a narrative purpose than giving them moments because fans think they deserve it, which might or might not affect negativity the structure of an arc. If it doesn't better for everyone, something like that rarely happens.

I agree with your second sentence but not in this specific case. Dragon Ball is that much better because Mr.Toriyama never catered to it's fans.
What's the point of having Tien and Krillin around if they are not gonna accomplish anything? This isn't even about fanservice, its about properly using and investing in a character, a problem that the original manga had with the non-saiyans, that GT had with anyone who isn't Goku and that the Super manga has with anyone who isn't Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Exline » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:36 pm

blain218 wrote:
LightBing wrote:
blain218 wrote:
The "fanservice" route is still better than not giving them anything to do at all. Just because the original series does something doesn't make justified.
That's your opinion. I rather have them as tool who serve a narrative purpose than giving them moments because fans think they deserve it, which might or might not affect negativity the structure of an arc. If it doesn't better for everyone, something like that rarely happens.

I agree with your second sentence but not in this specific case. Dragon Ball is that much better because Mr.Toriyama never catered to it's fans.
What's the point of having Tien and Krillin around if they are not gonna accomplish anything? This isn't even about fanservice, its about properly using and investing in a character, a problem that the original manga had with the non-saiyans, that GT had with anyone who isn't Goku and that the Super manga has with anyone who isn't Goku and Vegeta.
Didn't we have this discussion already?..

Their purpose was to create tension in that chapter to show how Universe 7 isn't going to be as safe as we thought. We might not see some of our characters winning their fights if they get their designated chapters. Android 18 might lose to Ribrianne. Gohan may lose early. We don't exactly know for sure now seeing how quickly these two went out.

I am content with Krillin and Tenshinhan's elimination. They are fan favorites, but we shouldn't be judging the writer because the way he wrote his characters doesn't cater to us. I don't think they need an elimination either, it would be fruitless since they'd be eliminated quickly either way. I do wish they could've done more, but what's done is done and we should wait to see how their quick eliminations affects the narrative in the coming chapters instead of complaining about why our fan favorites didn't do what we wanted them to do.

I don't see it as improperly using and investing characters, I see it as Toyotaro progressing from a major DBZ Fanboy to a more interesting writer. He's taking a much more unexpected route with these characters, avoiding the fanservice and fan pandering and coming up with his own methods of establishing his stories.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:47 pm

Toyotaro will earn my respect if he quickly eliminates the fodders and gets to the main fight without wasting time.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Exline » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:59 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Toyotaro will earn my respect if he quickly eliminates the fodders and gets to the main fight without wasting time.
I really need some solid convincing as to why people want to see the big fights right away.. like damn let a story develop and progress..

I understand the anime's pace is a bit too long, but at least wish for a pace that is satisfying enough to give enough characters some good representation and unexpected moments.

Why rush to see Jiren vs. Goku and Goku vs. Kefla when there are many more fights that can be just as interesting as them if given the chance..?

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Whatever » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:13 pm

Exline wrote:
blain218 wrote:
LightBing wrote: That's your opinion. I rather have them as tool who serve a narrative purpose than giving them moments because fans think they deserve it, which might or might not affect negativity the structure of an arc. If it doesn't better for everyone, something like that rarely happens.

I agree with your second sentence but not in this specific case. Dragon Ball is that much better because Mr.Toriyama never catered to it's fans.
What's the point of having Tien and Krillin around if they are not gonna accomplish anything? This isn't even about fanservice, its about properly using and investing in a character, a problem that the original manga had with the non-saiyans, that GT had with anyone who isn't Goku and that the Super manga has with anyone who isn't Goku and Vegeta.
Didn't we have this discussion already?..

Their purpose was to create tension in that chapter to show how Universe 7 isn't going to be as safe as we thought. We might not see some of our characters winning their fights if they get their designated chapters. Android 18 might lose to Ribrianne. Gohan may lose early. We don't exactly know for sure now seeing how quickly these two went out.

I am content with Krillin and Tenshinhan's elimination. They are fan favorites, but we shouldn't be judging the writer because the way he wrote his characters doesn't cater to us. I don't think they need an elimination either, it would be fruitless since they'd be eliminated quickly either way. I do wish they could've done more, but what's done is done and we should wait to see how their quick eliminations affects the narrative in the coming chapters instead of complaining about why our fan favorites didn't do what we wanted them to do.

I don't see it as improperly using and investing characters, I see it as Toyotaro progressing from a major DBZ Fanboy to a more interesting writer. He's taking a much more unexpected route with these characters, avoiding the fanservice and fan pandering and coming up with his own methods of establishing his stories.
That really does not work,getting rid of the 2 weakest characters of the team first does not crease 'tension' in any way.
Same goes if roshi,18 or Piccolo were eliminated first.

The 'no one is safe' does not work unless one of the strongest of the team fall victim to it.Also Krillin and Tien's elimination effects nothing since they did nothing,they were useless and a waste of space.
Also Toyotaro is not avoiding fanservice at all,he just gives fanservice to the characters he likes(i mean lets be real you can expect Vegeta to get better fanservice moments than the anime since he is Toyotaro's pet character).

Can't wait for Vegeta using the Omega Burst Flash on a 1vs3 against the 3 strongest Pride Troopers,eliminating Toppo and Dyspo while he loses to Jiren only because Vegeta was only 1/10 of his power the entire time.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Bergamo » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:25 pm

I think what is not being understood is that the manga is a story told in discrete parts. We won't have an elimination count in the manga like we did in the anime, because Toyotarou isn't trying to show each and every fighter and their "moment", but instead, he's telling a story. Krillin and Tien were used in Frieza's plot to eliminate Frost and U9. They were not useless because they didn't get any eliminations, because they progressed the plot.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by batistabus » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:25 pm

Listening to Podcast #0439 reminded me of an idea I had back when we first found out that Hit would be fighting Jiren in the anime. I was reminded of this idea when the guys were talking about how the tournament rules rarely had an impact on the course of the battle (time limit, don't fly, don't kill).

Hit is an assassin. While Hit is clearly weaker than Goku in the manga, Goku believes Hit would be able to put up a much better fight if he were to use his killing techniques and not holding back. Obviously, killing is not allowed in the Tournament of Power, but what if Hit attempted to use killing techniques against Jiren despite that? What if he realized that he would never stand a chance against Jiren unless he were trying to kill him, so he went for an assassination attempt knowing that it would disqualify him, all for the sake of his universe? Of course Hit would fail, but it would be a bad-ass moment, an acknowledgement of the rules, and might even be enough to leave a lasting injury on Jiren. I honestly expected this to happen in the anime, so I was pretty disappointed when it didn't. Based on the circumstances, this concept seemed to write itself. If anything, this would work even better in the manga, where the gap in power Hit would need to overcome in order to take on Jiren would be wider than the anime.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:05 am

batistabus wrote:Listening to Podcast #0439 reminded me of an idea I had back when we first found out that Hit would be fighting Jiren in the anime. I was reminded of this idea when the guys were talking about how the tournament rules rarely had an impact on the course of the battle (time limit, don't fly, don't kill).

Hit is an assassin. While Hit is clearly weaker than Goku in the manga, Goku believes Hit would be able to put up a much better fight if he were to use his killing techniques and not holding back. Obviously, killing is not allowed in the Tournament of Power, but what if Hit attempted to use killing techniques against Jiren despite that? What if he realized that he would never stand a chance against Jiren unless he were trying to kill him, so he went for an assassination attempt knowing that it would disqualify him, all for the sake of his universe? Of course Hit would fail, but it would be a bad-ass moment, an acknowledgement of the rules, and might even be enough to leave a lasting injury on Jiren. I honestly expected this to happen in the anime, so I was pretty disappointed when it didn't. Based on the circumstances, this concept seemed to write itself. If anything, this would work even better in the manga, where the gap in power Hit would need to overcome in order to take on Jiren would be wider than the anime.
Yeah, I think that would actually be a good thing for them to do in the manga. In the anime, we saw Hits killing techniques in full force against Goku in episodes 71 and 72, however, in the manga, they've again built that up as being a prominent part of the character, but they don't really have an opportunity outside this tournament to showcase those killing techniques. I think, instead of that movement stopping secret technique, they may try to go with the Hit assassin mode thing, again as a payoff for the U6 arc, as well as to build up Jiren specifically.

I think it would be played for "Oh god, even though Hit got super scary strong and dangerous with his assassination techniques, Jiren is still ahead of him".

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by blain218 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:25 am

Exline wrote: Didn't we have this discussion already?..

Their purpose was to create tension in that chapter to show how Universe 7 isn't going to be as safe as we thought.


Which is a terrible way of going about it. Making a character completely useless just to build tension is simply bad writing. There is no way to justify it.
Exline wrote:I am content with Krillin and Tenshinhan's elimination. They are fan favorites, but we shouldn't be judging the writer because the way he wrote his characters doesn't cater to us. I don't think they need an elimination either, it would be fruitless since they'd be eliminated quickly either way. I do wish they could've done more, but what's done is done and we should wait to see how their quick eliminations affects the narrative in the coming chapters instead of complaining about why our fan favorites didn't do what we wanted them to do.

I don't see it as improperly using and investing characters, I see it as Toyotaro progressing from a major DBZ Fanboy to a more interesting writer. He's taking a much more unexpected route with these characters, avoiding the fanservice and fan pandering and coming up with his own methods of establishing his stories.
Krillin and Tien are not my favorites, I'm just pointing out Toyotaro's consistent poor use of the supporting cast throughout the manga. And please, the Super manga is filled with fanservice, especially for Vegeta fans and the constant copied scenes from the original manga. if Toyotaro was truly willing to go beyond fanservice he would have Vegeta eliminated early with no wins, but of course that's not gonna happen with Vegeta being his pet character.

If you are not gonna invest in a character you shouldn't even incorporate them in the first place, you should just permanently write them off like how Toriyama did with Launch according to an interview.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by blain218 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:29 am

Bergamo wrote:I think what is not being understood is that the manga is a story told in discrete parts. We won't have an elimination count in the manga like we did in the anime, because Toyotarou isn't trying to show each and every fighter and their "moment", but instead, he's telling a story. Krillin and Tien were used in Frieza's plot to eliminate Frost and U9. They were not useless because they didn't get any eliminations, because they progressed the plot.
You don't have to waste characters in order to advance a story. Why do so many people have a hard time understanding this? If you write a story about a team competition, you better make every starting member of that team useful to it, otherwise they are a waste of space.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by blain218 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:32 am

Whatever wrote:
Exline wrote:
blain218 wrote:
What's the point of having Tien and Krillin around if they are not gonna accomplish anything? This isn't even about fanservice, its about properly using and investing in a character, a problem that the original manga had with the non-saiyans, that GT had with anyone who isn't Goku and that the Super manga has with anyone who isn't Goku and Vegeta.
Didn't we have this discussion already?..

Their purpose was to create tension in that chapter to show how Universe 7 isn't going to be as safe as we thought. We might not see some of our characters winning their fights if they get their designated chapters. Android 18 might lose to Ribrianne. Gohan may lose early. We don't exactly know for sure now seeing how quickly these two went out.

I am content with Krillin and Tenshinhan's elimination. They are fan favorites, but we shouldn't be judging the writer because the way he wrote his characters doesn't cater to us. I don't think they need an elimination either, it would be fruitless since they'd be eliminated quickly either way. I do wish they could've done more, but what's done is done and we should wait to see how their quick eliminations affects the narrative in the coming chapters instead of complaining about why our fan favorites didn't do what we wanted them to do.

I don't see it as improperly using and investing characters, I see it as Toyotaro progressing from a major DBZ Fanboy to a more interesting writer. He's taking a much more unexpected route with these characters, avoiding the fanservice and fan pandering and coming up with his own methods of establishing his stories.
That really does not work,getting rid of the 2 weakest characters of the team first does not crease 'tension' in any way.
Same goes if roshi,18 or Piccolo were eliminated first.

The 'no one is safe' does not work unless one of the strongest of the team fall victim to it.Also Krillin and Tien's elimination effects nothing since they did nothing,they were useless and a waste of space.
Also Toyotaro is not avoiding fanservice at all,he just gives fanservice to the characters he likes(i mean lets be real you can expect Vegeta to get better fanservice moments than the anime since he is Toyotaro's pet character).

Can't wait for Vegeta using the Omega Burst Flash on a 1vs3 against the 3 strongest Pride Troopers,eliminating Toppo and Dyspo while he loses to Jiren only because Vegeta was only 1/10 of his power the entire time.
Exactly. The manga has just as much (if not more) fanservice as the anime, its just that its nearly all limited to Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Bergamo » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:33 am

blain218 wrote:
Bergamo wrote:I think what is not being understood is that the manga is a story told in discrete parts. We won't have an elimination count in the manga like we did in the anime, because Toyotarou isn't trying to show each and every fighter and their "moment", but instead, he's telling a story. Krillin and Tien were used in Frieza's plot to eliminate Frost and U9. They were not useless because they didn't get any eliminations, because they progressed the plot.
You don't have to waste characters in order to advance a story. Why do so many people have a hard time understanding this? If you write a story about a team competition, you better make every starting member of that team useful to it, otherwise they are a waste of space.
I don't get what you don't understand about the concept that they were useful even if they didn't get eliminations. Not only were they useful to the plot, but if it wasn't for Frieza's plan than Gohan would have used up all of his energy fighting U9.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by blain218 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:36 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Toyotaro will earn my respect if he quickly eliminates the fodders and gets to the main fight without wasting time.
Instead of wasting characters like that, why not take the opportunity to rewrite the cast to not be fodder in the first place? It would give them more of a reason to actually be in the ToP at all. Why not take the opportunity to developed them more since this arc obviously isn't the end of Super?

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:42 am

blain218 wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Toyotaro will earn my respect if he quickly eliminates the fodders and gets to the main fight without wasting time.
Instead of wasting characters like that, why not take the opportunity to rewrite the cast to not be fodder in the first place? It would give them more of a reason to actually be in the ToP at all. Why not take the opportunity to developed them more since this arc obviously isn't the end of Super?
Because realistically, that's a stupendous task for any writer to even attempt, much less accomplish well, espicially in this enviroment. The anime tried giving basic characterization to the majority of the fighters, and as a result, very view of them actually landed successfully.

Basically, what I'm getting at, is I would rather they fleshed out a 2 dozen characters from other universes, with only a dozen recieving extreme key attention, than doing what Toei attempted to do by characterizing 5 dozen characters mostly poorly.

Also, you know, pacing. One of the biggest problem with the anime was how ridiculously slow it was due to how it tried to characterize every character and every fight, when realistically it would be more effective to only focus on key characters and fights.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by blain218 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:48 am

Bergamo wrote:
blain218 wrote:
Bergamo wrote:I think what is not being understood is that the manga is a story told in discrete parts. We won't have an elimination count in the manga like we did in the anime, because Toyotarou isn't trying to show each and every fighter and their "moment", but instead, he's telling a story. Krillin and Tien were used in Frieza's plot to eliminate Frost and U9. They were not useless because they didn't get any eliminations, because they progressed the plot.
You don't have to waste characters in order to advance a story. Why do so many people have a hard time understanding this? If you write a story about a team competition, you better make every starting member of that team useful to it, otherwise they are a waste of space.
I don't get what you don't understand about the concept that they were useful even if they didn't get eliminations. Not only were they useful to the plot, but if it wasn't for Frieza's plan than Gohan would have used up all of his energy fighting U9.
Getting your own teammates eliminated is a dumb idea all around especially in the long run, because you would just be lowering your own chances at winning. I'm glad the anime never did anything that stupid. Keeping every member around as long as much possible increases your teams chances at victory because it means more people to aid you against the heavy weights like Jiren and more people to run the clock and win by having the largest number of lasting members in the end.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Bergamo » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:52 am

blain218 wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
blain218 wrote:
You don't have to waste characters in order to advance a story. Why do so many people have a hard time understanding this? If you write a story about a team competition, you better make every starting member of that team useful to it, otherwise they are a waste of space.
I don't get what you don't understand about the concept that they were useful even if they didn't get eliminations. Not only were they useful to the plot, but if it wasn't for Frieza's plan than Gohan would have used up all of his energy fighting U9.
Getting your own teammates eliminated is a dumb idea all around especially in the long run, because you would just be lowering your own chances at winning. I'm glad the anime never did anything that stupid. Keeping every member around as long as much possible increases your teams chances at victory because it means more people to aid you against the heavy weights like Jiren and more people to run the clock and win by having the largest number of lasting members in the end.
Frieza doesn't care about his teammates. He recognized that Krillin, Tien, and Roshi were likely too weak to significantly benefit his team, so he sacrificed him to eliminate 1/7 of the competition and save Gohan's stamina. This is extremely consistent with Frieza's character and the human's limitations.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by CriticalThinker » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:53 am

I can't really say I agree with people saying that Tien and Krillin being knocked out creates tension, since those two are the weaker members of the team. I'd be inclined to agree if it were Vegeta or Goku getting knocked out right away for example but not with those two. Hell I feel that the manga will end up suffering the same problem as the anime did with U7 stomping through most of the universes and only really struggling with U11 and U6, and that fusion from U3. Also it seems like the manga is following the anime elimination order so far so unless the manga changes it up, I feel like that reduces any tension that the arc could have had even further.

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