Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Asura » Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:12 pm

I saw someone ask this in a thread somewhere, and it got me thinking as well. Why, all of a sudden, now that Super is a thing, do people suddenly dismiss any kind of criticisms about power levels (not even power levels, just consistency in power) as a non-factor?

Super has had a ton of problems with power relativity. I'm not even talking strict power level numbers here, I just mean in proportion to who is stronger than who and how. That seems to have been completely done away with in Super. The Future Trunks arc was the worst offender of this, but the events of last night's episode (84) in where Krillin actually manages to fend off a Super Saiyan Blue Kamehameha for awhile, has once again gotten people up in arms. Now, let me just state that I don't have an arm in this race. I see both sides and the points they both bring up are valid. Although personally I'm a bit disappointed that they even showed Krillin holding off a SSB Kamehameha, and not for reasons of power levels, but because the entire fight up until then was showing that Krillin was using technique and strategy to win instead of raw power. But then he just goes head to head in a raw power struggle. It kinda defeated the entire purpose of what they were building Krillin up for during the fight.

But back to the question, why is it now like this with Super? People are tired of power levels, and I get that, but I don't understand how so many people don't even care about power relativity or consistency, and will make up a zillion excuses as to why this inconsistency in power somehow makes sense (Goku was holding back, Trunks had Goku and Vegeta giving him power, He totally could have magically learned the spirit bomb from King Kai, Zamasu was already weak, Krillin's been training, etc. etc.)

I don't remember anyone making these excuses for GT. "Why is base GT Goku so powerful?" "How could base GT Goku do things SSJ4 couldn't?" "How is SSJ4 Vegeta as strong as SSJ4 Goku?" No one really tried to rationalize these questions, most just admitted it didn't make sense and wasn't great writing, which is just what it boils down to. So why is it all of a sudden different for Super? It really feels like people are just way too lenient on Super sometimes, because they're afraid that if they criticize it, they might have another GT on their hands. I have never seen people make as many excuses for an anime series, valid or not, than I have with Super (Berserk 2016 is a close second, but Super is lightyears ahead of that pile of shit), and the question is why?

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:33 pm

Because Super is generally liked by people and that attracts those who like to defend the things they like no matter how nonsensical it appears to others and those who don't have much of a problem with consistency, but don't like all the negativity, that comes in power level debates.
There's probably also something about its blurry canon status, as now there is no manga straight from Toriyama to show, the "true" version of events, so they get to say the anime is the "true" version of events anyways and thus it must simply be defended even more vigorously.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by OLKv3 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:44 pm

Fanboys. It's always fanboys

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:45 pm

Because Toriyama is on board with it, if he wasn't, you'd be getting lynched if you dared to defend any of this shit. Not that there aren't detractors even with Toriyama on board, but the defense force would be a tenth of what it is now without the "Toriyama seal of approval" behind all this BS.

For some reason, this stupid notion that only the original creator can do something well (which has been proven patently false in a multitude of other series & characters) makes people jump in to defend things.
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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Boo Machine » Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:51 pm

I don't think it's necessarily about excusing Super for it's mistakes. But about defending good moments of super from those that would let a little power inconsistency ruin what's otherwise a good moment. (Yes I am calling this past episode a little inconsistency, Fight me.)

And it's difficult to just tell others to do what I do, which is to say, "Did I enjoy myself and did this moment have a meaningful impact? If so then logic be damned!" because it will usually be met with "NO! That's bullshit, Vegeta's power level cubed shouldnt be that high. if I reverse the formula making it one side of a triangle and then using the pathagorean theorem to find the exact number it should only be about 4/7ths as high as it was".

Which is a shame, because I feel like power level inconsistencies are such a small issue that gets blown up way more than it needs to. Especially since super has way bigger issues than just power levels. In this series power levels matter so little and I still don't know why there is so much attention on it.

And of course there are those that just defend it because Dragonball. But I feel like I don't really see those people often. But then again I pretty much only go here to interact with the community so they could be everywhere for all I know.
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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Asura » Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:54 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Because Toriyama is on board with it, if he wasn't, you'd be getting lynched if you dared to defend any of this shit. Not that there aren't detractors even with Toriyama on board, but the defense force would be a tenth of what it is now without the "Toriyama seal of approval" behind all this BS.

For some reason, this stupid notion that only the original creator can do something well (which has been proven patently false in a multitude of other series & characters) makes people jump in to defend things.
You know, I think it's exactly this too. If Super was another GT situation where it was a TOEI only thing, people would be saying it's the worst garbage ever, the franchise is dead, etc.

Personally I view GT and Super as equals. That is to say, neither are bad, but both have their bad parts and their good parts.

Yet for some reason, GT gets shit on and Super gets revered by a lot of people, despite having some of the same problems GT suffered from.
Boo Machine wrote:In this series power levels matter so little and I still don't know why there is so much attention on it.
Because people want consistency. I guarantee you that the majority of the power level people you stereotype into being exact formula number nerds are actually just people who want a consistent basis for who is stronger than who. Otherwise we just have what you implied, which is "oh, that sure did look cool! It didn't make much sense in terms of power consistency, but it sure was cool!"

It's just so weird to me that there are so many people who don't care about consistency. The writing could be done by a toddler and you'd still defend it because you enjoy the flashing images on the screen because it looks cool. And hey, there are people like that, who really just want to see cool things happen and cool fights regardless of whether or not they "make sense" in the DBverse, but I don't understand that.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:02 pm

Asura wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Because Toriyama is on board with it, if he wasn't, you'd be getting lynched if you dared to defend any of this shit. Not that there aren't detractors even with Toriyama on board, but the defense force would be a tenth of what it is now without the "Toriyama seal of approval" behind all this BS.

For some reason, this stupid notion that only the original creator can do something well (which has been proven patently false in a multitude of other series & characters) makes people jump in to defend things.
You know, I think it's exactly this too. If Super was another GT situation where it was a TOEI only thing, people would be saying it's the worst garbage ever, the franchise is dead, etc.

Personally I view GT and Super as equals. That is to say, neither are bad, but both have their bad parts and their good parts.

Yet for some reason, GT gets shit on and Super gets revered by a lot of people, despite having some of the same problems GT suffered from.
A lot of it has to do with creator loyalty, even if the creator in question is to blame for a good deal of the conceptual problems and lack of consistency that Toei & Toyotaro have to either BS their way through or just throw in there and hope nobody notices.

A mentality I find extremely moronic when every superhero ever has been done infinitely better down the line by people besides their original creators but you don't hear anyone bitching and moaning that Avengers is a piece of shit because it wasn't written by Stan Lee now do you?
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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Asura » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:05 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Asura wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Because Toriyama is on board with it, if he wasn't, you'd be getting lynched if you dared to defend any of this shit. Not that there aren't detractors even with Toriyama on board, but the defense force would be a tenth of what it is now without the "Toriyama seal of approval" behind all this BS.

For some reason, this stupid notion that only the original creator can do something well (which has been proven patently false in a multitude of other series & characters) makes people jump in to defend things.
You know, I think it's exactly this too. If Super was another GT situation where it was a TOEI only thing, people would be saying it's the worst garbage ever, the franchise is dead, etc.

Personally I view GT and Super as equals. That is to say, neither are bad, but both have their bad parts and their good parts.

Yet for some reason, GT gets shit on and Super gets revered by a lot of people, despite having some of the same problems GT suffered from.
A lot of it has to do with creator loyalty, even if the creator in question is to blame for a good deal of the conceptual problems and lack of consistency that Toei & Toyotaro have to either BS their way through or just throw in there and hope nobody notices.

A mentality I find extremely moronic when every superhero ever has been done infinitely better down the line by people besides their original creators but you don't hear anyone bitching and moaning that Avengers is a piece of shit because it wasn't written by Stan Lee now do you?
I'm pretty curious if you put someone in a room who just finished DBZ, and knows nothing about GT/Super, if you showed them GT and said that Toriyama wrote all the plot points and character designs and etc. for it, while saying that Super is a complete TOEI fabrication, which one they'd like better in the end, and for what reasons. Or you could just say both of them had nothing to do with Toriyama at all and see how the reaction is.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Boo Machine » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:15 pm

Asura wrote:
Boo Machine wrote:In this series power levels matter so little and I still don't know why there is so much attention on it.
Because people want consistency. I guarantee you that the majority of the power level people you stereotype into being exact formula number nerds are actually just people who want a consistent basis for who is stronger than who. Otherwise we just have what you implied, which is "oh, that sure did look cool! It didn't make much sense in terms of power consistency, but it sure was cool!"

It's just so weird to me that there are so many people who don't care about consistency. The writing could be done by a toddler and you'd still defend it because you enjoy the flashing images on the screen because it looks cool. And hey, there are people like that, who really just want to see cool things happen and cool fights regardless of whether or not they "make sense" in the DBverse, but I don't understand that.
Except we do have consistency about who is stronger than who. In the past we had trunks landing some hits on black and Zamasu. Cool but it's clear who is stronger because he lost. This past episode had Krillin beam clashing Goku. We know Goku is stronger because Krillin was losing and had to be saved. You say people just want a consistent basis for who is stronger than who but we have that. It's doesn't sound like people just want to know who is stronger but instead want hard science and numbers and have it fit into a little box in their heads because for some reason making a few leaps in logic in a series that throws out logic from time to time to suit the plot is a huge no no.

"oh, that sure did look cool! It didn't make much sense in terms of power consistency, but it sure was cool!" Yes. This is exactly how it is. If the characters and their interaction are great and has emotion behind it, then yes. Consistency can go sit in a corner for a little bit. It's not that these people don't care about consistency it's about what their priorities are when it comes to enjoying a dragonball story. If a little liberty has to be taken every now and again to have a good moment, then I will take that moment over scaling any day of the week. Because that isn't what I watch DragonBall or any other series for and I suspect it isn't what a lot of these people watch dragonball for either. You may not agree with that and that is super cool. You do you. But I don't see why it's so confusing to understand.

And I never called anyone formula number nerds. I just made up a random example but it isn't far from the kind of made up numbers I've seen people pull out of nowhere before.
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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Nekis13 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:18 pm

Boo Machine wrote:I don't think it's necessarily about excusing Super for it's mistakes. But about defending good moments of super from those that would let a little power inconsistency ruin what's otherwise a good moment. (Yes I am calling this past episode a little inconsistency, Fight me.)

And it's difficult to just tell others to do what I do, which is to say, "Did I enjoy myself and did this moment have a meaningful impact? If so then logic be damned!" because it will usually be met with "NO! That's bullshit, Vegeta's power level cubed shouldnt be that high. if I reverse the formula making it one side of a triangle and then using the pathagorean theorem to find the exact number it should only be about 4/7ths as high as it was".

Which is a shame, because I feel like power level inconsistencies are such a small issue that gets blown up way more than it needs to. Especially since super has way bigger issues than just power levels. In this series power levels matter so little and I still don't know why there is so much attention on it.

And of course there are those that just defend it because Dragonball. But I feel like I don't really see those people often. But then again I pretty much only go here to interact with the community so they could be everywhere for all I know.
Pretty much this. People are overreacting to something that HAS happened before (Not saying that because it's happened before in Z therefore Super is excused).

You're gonna let like 3 seconds of character expression ruin what was otherwise a really solid episode.
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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Analytical Delusion » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:25 pm

Well, I think there are two groups of people who are doing so:

1) There are a lot of people who feel that Toei's product is not necessarily representative of Toriyama's outlines. They may or may not believe the manga is a more true product to Toriyama's vision (from the interview in the first Super tankoubon and Toyotaro's interview at the NY Comic Con, it does seem that Toriyama submits outlines to Toyotaro, who draws up storyboards, before Toriyama corrects/edits/approves his writing), but regardless of their positions in that regard, they might feel that that the anime takes liberties. Toriyama generally had a story without a ton of consistencies, which is impressive for the number of characters and chapters in his universe. Some of the inconsistencies seem to be things that Toriyama would generally not err on, so the amount of skepticism towards Toei (and in some regards Toyotaro) is justified, to me.

2) Some of it has to go with this strange elitism in the online Dragon Ball fanbase. There is a ton of apprehension towards those who value either consistency (generally with regards to characters' strengths relative to one another) or continuity (canon discussions), which is some sort of bizarre. People are surely entitled to their opinions, if they want to view Dragon Ball to be a not-too-serious or whimsy/campy work, but there is an overwhelming amount of condescension and scorn, in no small part due to this (fairly large) group of individuals inserting themselves in every conversation (countless times in nearly every serious Dragon Ball community on the web, whenever the conversation turns to consistency in terms of relative power—note that I am specifically *not* speaking of numerical power levels—or canon/continuity). It's a curious and an unfortunate brand of interaction that individuals holding those viewpoints feel the need to jump into and derail dedicated discussions on those topics.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by TobyS » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:43 pm

Because the cool character interactions and emotional moments are worth way more then power level consistencies on balance, so we judge the show on it's overall balance of merits.

We also realised early in that this show was going to be less consistent with this and while it's very mildly annoying we collectively decided not to go into each episode thread and whine about the same thing every single week in a selfish attempt to suck the joy and fun out of it ( having db back after 20 years) for everyone else.

We also realised no one from Toei reads these forums so complaining literally can't help, it can only kill other peoples buzz, and why would a civilised person do that?
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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Totamo » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:48 pm

Because the people who are bashing super for power inconsistentcies are the same people who try to justify them with the original anime and manga.The same people who bashed GT for the same reasons as well.

It's the same with the Goku has changed crowd. They justify goku's actions in z but will criticize them in super.

Now, I hated GT but it had nothing to do with plotholes, inconsistencies or contrivanced because among the 3 series before it had the least amount.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:54 pm

It's all a matter of perspective for some fans. Some fans can tolerate more bullshit than other fans can. The character who is also benefiting from the wonky power-scaling is a major factor into how certain fans will assess the scenario. If the inconsistency/inconsistencies in the battle powers help in solidifying the undertone of the narrative of the episode, which in the most recent case of Super, was to justify Krillin's position on the team for the Tournament Of Power, then it can be looked over.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Totamo » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:12 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Because Toriyama is on board with it, if he wasn't, you'd be getting lynched if you dared to defend any of this shit. Not that there aren't detractors even with Toriyama on board, but the defense force would be a tenth of what it is now without the "Toriyama seal of approval" behind all this BS.

For some reason, this stupid notion that only the original creator can do something well (which has been proven patently false in a multitude of other series & characters) makes people jump in to defend things.
Considering how much hate the buu saga, battle of gods, resurrection f and dragon Ball minus got, I think that's a weak argument.


Plus toei doesn't exactly have the best record when it comes to this franchise see the many movies and episode of bardock for example


In fact, I can only think of a handful of things in dragon Ball that did not have toriyama's name on it that were good and maybe a handful of things that were bad with his name on it.

The toriyama element does have an effect on some but if something is undeniably good, it won't make much of a difference.. Father of bardock and the trunks special prove that.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:15 pm

Totamo wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Because Toriyama is on board with it, if he wasn't, you'd be getting lynched if you dared to defend any of this shit. Not that there aren't detractors even with Toriyama on board, but the defense force would be a tenth of what it is now without the "Toriyama seal of approval" behind all this BS.

For some reason, this stupid notion that only the original creator can do something well (which has been proven patently false in a multitude of other series & characters) makes people jump in to defend things.
Considering how much hate the buu saga, battle of gods, resurrection f and dragon Ball minus got, I think that's a weak argument.


Plus toei doesn't exactly have the best record when it comes to this franchise see the many movies and episode of bardock for example


In fact, I can only think of a handful of things in dragon Ball that did not have toriyama's name on it that were good and maybe a handful of things that were bad with his name on it.

The toriyama element does have an effect on some but if something is undeniably good, it won't make much of a difference.. Father of bardock and the trunks special prove that.
Okay, then why doesn't anyone crap on Super which is considerably shittier than almost everything you listed above except Minus? Why is GT the second Holocaust when Super does EVERYTHING wrong like GT did, like the Cell & Boo arcs did, that F and Minus did but Super still gets away with it because "its canon!".
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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Doctor. » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:19 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Okay, then why doesn't anyone crap on Super which is considerably shittier than almost everything you listed above except Minus? Why is GT the second Holocaust when Super does EVERYTHING wrong like GT did, like the Cell & Boo arcs did, that F and Minus did but Super still gets away with it because "its canon!".
Super doesn't really get away with anything though. It's more whiteknighted than GT, sure, but even GT started having fans ever since Super came out (or they just came out of hiding, which just proves how Super is hated now, that GT fans feel comfortable admitting they're GT fans). Super is still massively hated everywhere, especially the anime. It's the manga that is mostly praised.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by sintzu » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:20 pm

Asura wrote:Why, all of a sudden, now that Super is a thing, do people suddenly dismiss any kind of criticisms about power levels (not even power levels, just consistency in power) as a non-factor ?
What else can you do with a show like Super ? the writers don't care and probably never will so the only thing fans can do is just do the same thing.

I'm fine with people doing that but what I'm completely against is them saying the franchise has always been like this cause that's a complete lie. If you don't care about what Super is doing then that's fine but don't try to justify it by dragging the rest of the franchise into it.
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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Boo Machine » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:20 pm

ekrolo2 wrote: Okay, then why doesn't anyone crap on Super which is considerably shittier than almost everything you listed above except Minus? Why is GT the second Holocaust when Super does EVERYTHING wrong like GT did, like the Cell & Boo arcs did, that F and Minus did but Super still gets away with it because "its canon!".
Why doesn't anyone crap on Super? Plenty of people crap on it.
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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:22 pm

Doctor. wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Okay, then why doesn't anyone crap on Super which is considerably shittier than almost everything you listed above except Minus? Why is GT the second Holocaust when Super does EVERYTHING wrong like GT did, like the Cell & Boo arcs did, that F and Minus did but Super still gets away with it because "its canon!".
Super doesn't really get away with anything though. It's more whiteknighted than GT, sure, but even GT started having fans ever since Super came out (or they just came out of hiding, which just proves how Super is hated now, that GT fans feel comfortable admitting they're GT fans). Super is still massively hated everywhere, especially the anime. It's the manga that is mostly praised.
It's still somehow less hated than GT, the Boo arc or even Episode of Bardock which blows my mind when it suffers from all their problems.
Boo Machine wrote:Why doesn't anyone crap on Super? Plenty of people crap on it.
Nowhere near the ferver you're gonna get that you do with GT though. Even though Super is the embodiment with EVERYTHING wrong with Dragon Ball that the Freeza fight started and Toriyama ran into the ground.
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