Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm telling you guys with the way Super is heading now, by the end of this series we have Yamcha fighting on par with the Grand Priest! Mark my words.

I'd be fine with it, because it'd be rife with comedic material.

Just because I enjoyed how episode 84 handled the martial arts aspects doesn't mean I'm not aware of how the ideas it pushed ruffled people's feathers. I just don't see the value in constantly trying to apply overly-specific powerscaling from the past into the broad-strokes conceptual-utilization that the anime makes use of.

Seriously, think about it........ how many of the supposed inconsistencies you guys have found could be explained away merely by looking at the broad concepts that the writers attempted to convey?

I would propose that it'd be a lot more than people would admit.

Overly-specific powerscaling you say?
That's FAR from what we all have in mind. Anyone and their great grandmother can see that Krillin going toe to toe with freakin current SSJ Blue Goku for crying out loud is a giant inconsistency absolutely not subject to justification.

If we're going to stay rationally minded, we can all see in the blink of an eye that the writers of these series aren't even trying to be consistent in the slightest. It's almost like they're trying to do it in purpose just to piss us off.

Okay, you got me on the "overly-specific powerscaling" part. That was flanderization on my end. But you gotta admit, intent matters more than people are saying.

How come you jumped to the worst conclusion possible, anyways?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around this trend I'm seeing. Is it truly not possible that the writers merely intended to showcase an emotional, character developing, and impactful moment at the cost of a bit of inconsistency? Is it truly not possible?

I personally try to see the best in these kinds of things first, but from what I've seen of Kanzenshuu's user base, it seems that the complete opposite is being practiced, at least enough that it gets in the way of civil and constructive debate. Is there any particular logical reasoning for this?

[perucho1990]

The complains of Krillin vs Goku is really laughable, the reaction wasnt even bad than when Raged Vegeta surpassed Buu Saga Vegetto or the sparring match between Blue Vegeta and Trunks.

Why cant some people understand Goku was holding back in Blue mode? Like how Vegeta held back vs Cabba in the tournament?

[pacz360]

The complains of Krillin vs Goku is really laughable, the reaction wasnt even bad than when Raged Vegeta surpassed Buu Saga Vegetto or the sparring match between Blue Vegeta and Trunks.

Why cant some people understand Goku was holding back in Blue mode? Like how Vegeta held back vs Cabba in the tournament?

Cause we need something trivial to bitch about and Ya know this place needs a good old fashion bitching.

[GodVegetto91]

I'd be fine with it, because it'd be rife with comedic material.

Just because I enjoyed how episode 84 handled the martial arts aspects doesn't mean I'm not aware of how the ideas it pushed ruffled people's feathers. I just don't see the value in constantly trying to apply overly-specific powerscaling from the past into the broad-strokes conceptual-utilization that the anime makes use of.

Seriously, think about it........ how many of the supposed inconsistencies you guys have found could be explained away merely by looking at the broad concepts that the writers attempted to convey?

I would propose that it'd be a lot more than people would admit.

Overly-specific powerscaling you say?
That's FAR from what we all have in mind. Anyone and their great grandmother can see that Krillin going toe to toe with freakin current SSJ Blue Goku for crying out loud is a giant inconsistency absolutely not subject to justification.

If we're going to stay rationally minded, we can all see in the blink of an eye that the writers of these series aren't even trying to be consistent in the slightest. It's almost like they're trying to do it in purpose just to piss us off.

Okay, you got me on the "overly-specific powerscaling" part. That was flanderization on my end. But you gotta admit, intent matters more than people are saying.

How come you jumped to the worst conclusion possible, anyways?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around this trend I'm seeing. Is it truly not possible that the writers merely intended to showcase an emotional, character developing, and impactful moment at the cost of a bit of inconsistency? Is it truly not possible?

I personally try to see the best in these kinds of things first, but from what I've seen of Kanzenshuu's user base, it seems that the complete opposite is being practiced, at least enough that it gets in the way of civil and constructive debate. Is there any particular logical reasoning for this?

Sure we can all try to stay optimistic and trying to justify anything to throw at us. But at some point you just realise things for how they really are.. and that's ofcourse inconsistencies. We've tried hard and long many times before and failed. It's only now that a large part of the fanbase are starting to see things for the way they really are. Justification is no longer a rational possibility. Especially when you have a human character that is well below namek saga SSJ1/Freeza level holding his own against... well, a Super Saiyan Form BEYOND SSJ God, that has in the mean time (on top of it) managed to multiply his power by well over 10 times from what he was before as a SSJ Blue. It's just... a different dimensional entirely. You can not make something like last weeks episode up!

[pacz360]

Overly-specific powerscaling you say?
That's FAR from what we all have in mind. Anyone and their great grandmother can see that Krillin going toe to toe with freakin current SSJ Blue Goku for crying out loud is a giant inconsistency absolutely not subject to justification.

If we're going to stay rationally minded, we can all see in the blink of an eye that the writers of these series aren't even trying to be consistent in the slightest. It's almost like they're trying to do it in purpose just to piss us off.

Okay, you got me on the "overly-specific powerscaling" part. That was flanderization on my end. But you gotta admit, intent matters more than people are saying.

How come you jumped to the worst conclusion possible, anyways?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around this trend I'm seeing. Is it truly not possible that the writers merely intended to showcase an emotional, character developing, and impactful moment at the cost of a bit of inconsistency? Is it truly not possible?

I personally try to see the best in these kinds of things first, but from what I've seen of Kanzenshuu's user base, it seems that the complete opposite is being practiced, at least enough that it gets in the way of civil and constructive debate. Is there any particular logical reasoning for this?

Sure we can all try to stay optimistic and trying to justify anything to throw at us. But at some point you just realise things for how they really are.. and that's ofcourse inconsistencies. We've tried hard and long many times before and failed. It's only now that a large part of the fanbase are starting to see things for the way they really are. Justification is no longer a rational possibility. Especially when you have a human character that is well below namek saga SSJ1/Freeza level holding his own against... well, a Super Saiyan Form BEYOND SSJ God, that has in the mean time (on top of it) managed to multiply his power by well over 10 times from what he was before as a SSJ Blue. It's just... a different dimensional entirely. You can not make something like last weeks episode up!

Krillin never pressured goku in the sense of strength if he did he wouldn't hide from the dude when he turned ssj and try for a ring out on him.
I swear the fact that people are still bitching about last weeks without looking at the context in it amazes me.

[GodVegetto91]

The complains of Krillin vs Goku is really laughable, the reaction wasnt even bad than when Raged Vegeta surpassed Buu Saga Vegetto or the sparring match between Blue Vegeta and Trunks.

Why cant some people understand Goku was holding back in Blue mode? Like how Vegeta held back vs Cabba in the tournament?

How is it laughable?
Because you don't agree with it or perhaps can't even understand it? The complaints are TOTALLY understandable and in place. They are what's justifyable! Not the actual inconsistency!
And yes, people raged very hard about Vegeta even Surpassing SSJ3 Goku never mind Vegeta.

So you think a <SSJ1 Level human fighter suddenly holding his own against a over 10x powered SSJ Blue is okay? Is justifyable??

Holding back doesn't make a bit of difference in this case. Even if SSJ Blue Goku were to use 1% of his power as a SSJ Blue he would crush Krillin without even noticing it!

Holding back doesn't even enter this extreme equation.

[TheMikado]

The complains of Krillin vs Goku is really laughable, the reaction wasnt even bad than when Raged Vegeta surpassed Buu Saga Vegetto or the sparring match between Blue Vegeta and Trunks.

Why cant some people understand Goku was holding back in Blue mode? Like how Vegeta held back vs Cabba in the tournament?

Cause we need something trivial to bitch about and Ya know this place needs a good old fashion bitching.

You're missing context, at that point we didn't know Beerus full power was greater than SSB x KK x 10. And people did complain about those, the problem is that it's happening more and more often and more and more ridiculous where people are getting progressively more annoyed with each new example. I'm past that point because I simply expect it at this point but I'm not going to act like it's normal or decent writing either. What you are seeing is more and more people hitting their breaking point, that's all.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I guess what I'm trying to say is......... Why do people take these inconsistencies so badly?

I genuinely can't understand how a person could react so negatively, especially since we often get contextual cues and character motives to give context to the supposed inconsistencies I hear people talking about.

Maybe it's just me, but when I see this sort of talk, I can't help but think that either people aren't critically thinking and missing details, or they are and that the evidence and explanations offered by the series itself aren't good enough for them for whatever reasons. Why aren't these explanations good enough for people, anyways?

It's why I realized early on that the mindset going in that will provide the most enjoyment AND a good amount of critical analysis is that the previous material merely provides the baseline of things like strength and abilities for the anime, then you have to analyze it on its own rules and merits.

I wouldn't be having such an issue with this if people could at least stop treating these things like the end of the world, or at least stop coming off in that manner. Maybe it's also just how I'm personally reading into these things.

===

For example, the contextual cues made it abundantly clear to me in the episode that Goku turned SSB to see what his friend would do, which he specifically said too, and was satisfied by what Krillin did, especially since 18 interjected and showed him that he was approaching the Tournament of Power the wrong way, which he also said in the episode.

[Asura]

I guess what I'm trying to say is......... Why do people take these inconsistencies so badly?

I genuinely can't understand how a person could react so negatively, especially since we often get contextual cues and character motives to give context to the supposed inconsistencies I hear people talking about.

Maybe it's just me, but when I see this sort of talk, I can't help but think that either people aren't critically thinking and missing details, or they are and that the evidence and explanations offered by the series itself aren't good enough for them for whatever reasons. Why aren't these explanations good enough for people, anyways?

It's why I realized early on that the mindset going in that will provide the most enjoyment AND a good amount of critical analysis is that the previous material merely provides the baseline of things like strength and abilities for the anime, then you have to analyze it on its own rules and merits.

I wouldn't be having such an issue with this if people could at least stop treating these things like the end of the world, or at least stop coming off in that manner. Maybe it's also just how I'm personally reading into these things.

===

For example, the contextual cues made it abundantly clear to me in the episode that Goku turned SSB to see what his friend would do, which he specifically said too, and was satisfied by what Krillin did, especially since 18 interjected and showed him that he was approaching the Tournament of Power the wrong way, which he also said in the episode.

It seems like all of your replies are boiling down to "Why can't we all be nice and ignore any and all faults that the show has"

Also, you ask why the explanations that the series gives us aren't good enough for some people. But that's literally what people are upset and arguing about, the fact that the series doesn't give us ANY explanation, good enough or bad enough.

Where was the explanation for Trunks seeming stronger than Goku & Vegeta at times? Gee I dunno

Where was that explanation for SS Rage? Gee I dunno

Where was that explanation for the spirit sword? Gee I dunno

What the hell was explanation exactly for Zamasu somehow becoming the universe or something? Gee I dunno

and etc. etc. - The series does not give explanations, that is the core problem.

[Zephyr]

If we're going to stay rationally minded, we can all see in the blink of an eye that the writers of these series aren't even trying to be consistent in the slightest. It's almost like they're trying to do it in purpose just to piss us off.

I think I realize what the "problem" is. The "problem" is that Krillin's kamehameha pushed Goku's kamehameha! The reason this is a "problem", is because people have a fascinating dogmatic devotion to this completely fan-invented pseudo-scientific hermeneutic-circular system of interpreting every slightest ounce of choreography, storyboarding, and animation, to identify the singular most truly important dimension of the franchise: the cold hard feats. These feats can only be identified by using the Agreed Upon Method™. Naturally, since Toriyama and Toei didn't invent any of this crap, they're not consistently telegraphing feats in a way that allows them to be consistently identified through the Agreed Upon Method™.

But hey, even if that's not what's ultimately the deep psychological cause of everyone's panties getting twisted, it's still not on the writers. There's not a snowball's chance in hell that they believe that Krillin is anywhere close in power to Super Saiyan Blue Goku, "muh feats!" be damned, otherwise these lines wouldn't have appeared in the episode:

Anyone and their great grandmother can see that Krillin going toe to toe with freakin current SSJ Blue Goku for crying out loud is a giant inconsistency absolutely not subject to justification.

So would it be inappropriate of my grandmother to make a cursory assessment of the episode and say "good thing Goku wasn't going all out right there, or Krillin might have died again"? Careful not to bring up "but my scaling!" or "but my feats!", because my grandmother doesn't care enough about the series to delve into these online communities and learn their strict methodology of interpretation, and you were absolutely certain that even someone like her would take great issue with this.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I apologize for coming off as a "Care Bear", as I've heard the term coined before.

Don't get me wrong, I realize there are issues and inconsistencies.

I just get confused when it seems like people conflate them with a lack of quality and/or care. I absolutely DESPISE anything that seems like unfounded hate. It's also part of how I personally interpret things. Before I go off about how something's an inconsistency, I always to rationalize it first and foremost, and if it still doesn't make a basic amount of sense (not specific, mind you, just basic), then I consider it a TRUE inconsistency. Basically, true inconsistencies are things that can't be rationalized and suck enjoyment from the series for simply existing, which I can say with certainty that the latter is almost non-existent for me.

===

For example, with Future Trunks and his Spirit Sword, we see that he was capable of channeling his Ki directly through his sword, and could even create a replacement entirely out of Ki. The remaining Humans of Earth then begin channeling their hopes and dreams into Future Trunks, willingly giving him their support and determination.

As we see in the Buu Saga, Goku needed Satan to convince the people of Earth to give their Genki willingly. The humans were doing the exact same thing for Future Trunks. Since he was already channeling Ki as a blade, it was a step up to unknowingly channeling everyone's Genki. He didn't have much say in it, other than channeling his determination and hope through his sword and then being given the rest by everyone else.

Previous material also set a precedent for characters giving their Ki to other characters, even seen in BoG. Goku and Vegeta, realizing that everyone else was donating their Genki, did so as well, though they specifically intended to do that. Human characters have demonstrated a capacity to donate their Genki, and Trunks has demonstrated an ability to manipulate Ki into a blade.

It's a simple jump from that to a Genki Blade.

[Asura]

Your logic is faulty.

Why would Goku even need to have learned the Genki Dama from King Kai, if according to you anyone can do it, as long as they have a basic understanding of how ki and giving ki works?

You're rationalizing something that isn't explained. You won't ever be able to rationalize it, because there is no explanation given. Everyone can come up with their own theories, but at the end of the day there are holes in every single explanation.

If you realize that there are issues and inconsistencies, then what exactly is your problem with people expressing their dissatisfaction over these issues? Why isn't a lack of care/quality a valid hypothesis? If you keep making the same mistake over and over, one has to question how much care they put into their product. I do think they care though, they just do a bad job of showing it sometimes.

[Luso Saiyan]

Pure strength is not like rock-scissors-paper.

Nobody said it was. But just because A beat B and B beat C, doesn't mean A inherently beats C. That's a fallacy.

Strength is not the only factor to determine a fight's outcome.

That only supports my point.

I dunno why this is so hard to accept for some reason, because this isn't a fallacy, but basic logic.

3 > 2 > 1

No, it isn't basic logic. I just provided an example of how not everything works like that. You have no proof that the characters work like numbers. The characters aren't numbers. They are characters. And just because one is stronger than someone, doesn't mean it's necessarily stronger than another just because he was beaten by the latter. I've already explained this in my argument, but I guess it's a futile effort when talking to someone who can't see past his own limited and fallacious views.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I guess when it really comes down to it, I hate unfounded hatred.

Even if it's not unfounded, I just find the constant bemoaning and grievances to be tiresome, ESPECIALLY when such people jump down the throats of those who earnestly don't understand what the fuss is about. I try to respect the series and other people, but I also expect other people to do the same.

It's not the inconsistencies themselves us folks defend, really.

It's when the decriers become so vocal and distressing that folks like myself feel the need to interject and defend the right of people to genuinely enjoy the series for what it does right. KaiserNeko really put it best:

The majority of episode 84's "discussion" regarding power level inconsistencies was too much for some of us to bear, too much malice and high emotions flaring, and people lost sight of what else there is to enjoy. If people had simply calmly and quietly talked about how things didn't make sense regarding the inconsistencies in question, but then moved on to other inquiries without any fuss or muss, I think this thread wouldn't have needed to be created.

This wasn't a breaking point just for the powerscalers, but for those of us that were increasingly frustrated with people's frustrations. Your frustrations didn't make sense to us, and our lack of frustration doesn't make sense to you.

[perucho1990]

How is it laughable?
Because you don't agree with it or perhaps can't even understand it? The complaints are TOTALLY understandable and in place. They are what's justifyable! Not the actual inconsistency!
And yes, people raged very hard about Vegeta even Surpassing SSJ3 Goku never mind Vegeta.

So you think a <SSJ1 Level human fighter suddenly holding his own against a over 10x powered SSJ Blue is okay? Is justifyable??

Holding back doesn't make a bit of difference in this case. Even if SSJ Blue Goku were to use 1% of his power as a SSJ Blue he would crush Krillin without even noticing it!

Holding back doesn't even enter this extreme equation.

Did u forget that Krillin got a power boost in his mini arc?

In the manga, SSJ Cabba is like what? Buu Saga SSJ Vegeta? And Vegeta shouldve killed him in Blue form if we use Z logic

And if we go back to Z, Namek Saga, Vegeta ran out of Ki, Final Form Freeza shouldve killed him quickly but he held back because he wanted to toy with him.

I dont know whats hard to understand when certain characters hold back?

[Asura]

Nobody said it was. But just because A beat B and B beat C, doesn't mean A inherently beats C. That's a fallacy.



That only supports my point.

I dunno why this is so hard to accept for some reason, because this isn't a fallacy, but basic logic.

3 > 2 > 1

No, it isn't basic logic. I just provided an example of how not everything works like that. You have no proof that the characters work like numbers. The characters aren't numbers. They are characters. And just because one is stronger than someone, doesn't mean it's necessarily stronger than another just because he was beaten by the latter. I've already explained this in my argument, but I guess it's a futile effort when talking to someone who can't see past his own limited and fallacious views.

Why haven't you proven me wrong yet then? Literally almost every single one of your responses to my arguments has just been "Nope, you're wrong." - Prove it already.

Give me one instance in DBZ where things were not 3 > 2 > 1, and then 3 > 1.

[Freeza9000]

When Goku turned into SSB and asked Krillin what he would do now, that should have been the point where 18 jumped in and went on about teamwork. But nope, their answer to what Krillin, the technique over raw power guy that we just saw 2 minutes ago, should do now is to try and go head-to-head in a raw power struggle. And there goes that "attempt"

There are times where said strategy isn't enough to grant one a huge advantage over the significantly stronger/faster opponent.

[Asura]

When Goku turned into SSB and asked Krillin what he would do now, that should have been the point where 18 jumped in and went on about teamwork. But nope, their answer to what Krillin, the technique over raw power guy that we just saw 2 minutes ago, should do now is to try and go head-to-head in a raw power struggle. And there goes that "attempt"

There are times where said strategy isn't enough to grant one a huge advantage over the significantly stronger/faster opponent.

So then how is going head to head against a stronger/faster opponent a more logical option?

[Zephyr]

Sometimes it might be better to get the stronger opponent to leave themselves open for a sneak attack. Like what happened in the episode.

You know, one of the larger problems of this subculture of "boil all choreography down to feats --> assign people numbers/tiers/ranks --> logically deduce where they stand relative to others --> logically deduce pre-packaged results for 'versus' match-ups" is that it seems to utterly constrict peoples' ability to think outside the box for fights. No strategy outside of "fight someone lower on the totem pole than you" comes across as a logical move.

[dbzfan7]

Sometimes it might be better to get the stronger opponent to leave themselves open for a sneak attack. Like what happened in the episode.

You know, one of the larger problems of this subculture of "boil all choreography down to feats --> assign people numbers/tiers/ranks --> logically deduce where they stand relative to others --> logically deduce pre-packaged results for 'versus' match-ups" is that it seems to utterly constrict peoples' ability to think outside the box for fights. No strategy outside of "fight someone lower on the totem pole than you" comes across as a logical move.

People would probably be more open if the gaps weren't incredibly insane. Strategy is nice and all, but it ain't overcoming someone if their raw stats are like a puddle to an ocean. That's basically why people are so hard on it in general when it comes to weaker vs stronger. If it were so helpful, it'd basically be more included in the areas where raw power pretty much has been the most needed aspect. There was a time with Cell when raw power was a lesson to not be enough....but even then it's not like Cell was completely dwarfed as he was for two reasons.

I mean take the Jojo series where people with weaker stands and strategy actually do get really far....though so long as they don't go head to head with someone like Jotaro or Josuke. The minute they do, their raw power is more than enough to decimate a weaker person. Though considering in that series killing a human is easier than a stand, it kinda gives strategists an open attack point while being weaker as humans are fragile.