Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by SansrivaaL » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:51 am

The Gods of Destruction must learn to be friendly with each other and start having practice matches, then they can all team up and beat Zeno since apparently now its teamwork>>>>>>power no matter how huge the gap may be.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:54 am

Gafonso6 wrote:
coola wrote:Not to mention Blue put strain on your body, Goku was in very bad form after tournament, why would he put himself in danger like that?
Goku was in bad form because he used the SSBKKx10 not because he used Blue. Blue putting strain on your body is a manga thing only.
That's right. They specifically state in the anime that SSB has great Ki control compared to even the mastered SS form, which is why it can be used on conjunction with Kaio-ken in the first place.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by TBMx » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:55 am

When episodes end and you want to forget you ever saw it, that's bad. I'm not watching the english dub or buying merch nor will I rewatch any episode. I'll see it once on youtube and that's it. If the writers don't care, why should the audience?

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Yedis » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:05 am

SansrivaaL wrote:The Gods of Destruction must learn to be friendly with each other and start having practice matches, then they can all team up and beat Zeno since apparently now its teamwork>>>>>>power no matter how huge the gap may be.
Not one person on U7 has beat anyone near SSB level yet. Can we wait at least until the Tournament starts before making these declarations?

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by lord turbo » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:51 pm

Araki wrote:It's actually the opposite. Some people are desperate to nitpick about power levels now. As if huge power difference always meant instant pulverizing in Dragon Ball. God forbid if Satan survived Cell's attack these days.

I also found baffling how can some people miss the fact Goku and Kuririn were simulating the tournament, where killing is not allowed, so obviously Goku needs to hold back. That is an important aspect of the tournament as it favors the weaker fighters, and even Kuririn pointed that out.
The problem is that Toriyama has consistently and constantly pounded huge power level difference equals dominance repeatedly into the fanbase's head for decades with a giant metal mallet. Its only know that things get distorted and I'm willing to bet this is Toei's doing and the manga will be far more consistent and logically explained things better than the half-assed way the anime staff does. Also, as for Goku and Kuririn simulating the tournament where killing is not allowed. Again, this does not favor weaker fighters, why, we've seen weaker fighters instantly decimated in tournament settings before during the previous budokais so why would this time be any different?
"Before one may reach Heaven, they must endure Hell first. Only then will you be able to attain serenity beyond a sea of strife." & "Fear is not a sign of cowardice but the recognition of danger. Those who ignore this basic emotion do so out of vanity and are thus quelled before victory." - Roy Teal Jr.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:59 pm

lord turbo wrote:
Araki wrote:It's actually the opposite. Some people are desperate to nitpick about power levels now. As if huge power difference always meant instant pulverizing in Dragon Ball. God forbid if Satan survived Cell's attack these days.

I also found baffling how can some people miss the fact Goku and Kuririn were simulating the tournament, where killing is not allowed, so obviously Goku needs to hold back. That is an important aspect of the tournament as it favors the weaker fighters, and even Kuririn pointed that out.
The problem is that Toriyama has consistently and constantly pounded huge power level difference equals dominance repeatedly into the fanbase's head for decades with a giant metal mallet. Its only know that things get distorted and I'm willing to bet this is Toei's doing and the manga will be far more consistent and logically explained things better than the half-assed way the anime staff does. Also, as for Goku and Kuririn simulating the tournament where killing is not allowed. Again, this does not favor weaker fighters, why, we've seen weaker fighters instantly decimated in tournament settings before during the previous budokais so why would this time be any different?
Simple. This is a tournament unlike any before. No longer merely one-on-one fights, but AN EIGHTY-FIGHTER BATTLE ROYAL WHERE THERE ARE ONLY RING-OUTS, NO FLYING, NO KNOCKOUT WINS.

There will be a wide variety of different fighters of different power levels and skill sets, each one unique and unpredictable. Not to mention that the recent Dragon Ball material has hammered in the point that taking someone off-guard can prove to be the downfall of even the strongest fighters like Goku.

As we see in episode 84 and 85, strategy has proven to be much more valuable with this kind of setup, and will likely be even more so in an environment as chaotic as the Tournament of Power is shaping up to be.

Could they portray it better? Sure, but the average viewer most likely gets the basic idea. I personally have doubts that Toyotaro could really portray something on this scale with such unpredictability. He already struggles to inject any real personality, development, and emotion into the characters in the manga. The anime medium has its advantages in certain aspects, and the Tournament of Power is looking to take full advantage of that fact. The old rules don't hold much water in the newly minted Dragon Ball beyond setting up a baseline, and we need to at least recognize this.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by lord turbo » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:42 pm

TheMikado wrote:In reference to the Trunks thing, I have to be honest.
I barely blinked an eye because characters have been pulling out random techniques that we never saw, foreshadowed, or even mentioned them developing throughout the entirety of Super. Trunks had been pulling off random techniques the whole time so I didn't even blink when he did this. Granted some are from the movies but its just modern Dragonball as a whole.

You have the never hinted at SSG form but apparently is part of ancient Saiyan lore, Vegeta's sudden rage form, Gohan going SSJ (didn't even know he could lose the Ultimate form), Trained/Golden Frieza, SSB, KK x SSB (Which somehow Vegeta didn't notice and Goku seems to have mastered now), Father/son attacks, Sythe manifestations, SSR, Shadow clones and tearing holes in reality to the Shadow realms, Trunks super speed demon wave learning, the list literally goes on and on of random out of nowhere stuff. I swear I literally didn't blink an eye.
So I honestly didn't even think about Krillin learn x100 solar flare despite not training for years and apparently figuring it out in 10 days.. This is all just par for the course at this point.
To be fair, I think you're greatly over exaggerating to make your false point of view seem credible. What you claimed for Super was never a case in Dragon Ball, any recent new plot device was explained in detail and why it does the effect of what its suppose to do. SSJ was greatly mentioned and foreshadowed repeatedly in Dragon Ball, so was SSJ2, now, SSJ3 literally came out the blue so I'll give you that, Vegeta rage boost isn't unsurprising since the Saiyan race seems to yield the potential for such things, Gohan paved the way for other characters, its very strange that Vegeta suddenly has one compared to before, but there is a precedence thanks to Gohan, but I still think its a poorly developed plot device nonetheless. Gohan going SSJ was always hotly debated every since he first did it in GT, it became hotly debated when the first poster of BoG showed Gohan as a SSJ, then we saw first footage of Gohan as a SSJ and now people were greatly conflicted, so much so a fan on Twitter chewed out the Movie Production staff making the same mistake GT did with the Screen Writer Watanabe doming damage control.

Freeza training is stupid, but I guess Toriyama's viewpoint now is that any character with a naturally high level has massive untapped potential, it certainly explains Shishima and Tagoma's equally insane power level increases. SSJB was out there, but it was explained (in a handwave moment more than anything which is kind of half-assed), Kaioken x SSJB was definitely explained in perfect logical detail (Something we want for everything going forward) and it answered a lot of theories and suspcions people had about SSJ x Kaioken being correct over many many years. Vegeta not noticing is nothing new or unusual, its fully possible Goku did it in secret when ever Vegeta was asleep plus mental/image training. What do you mean by Father/Son attacks? Black's Scythe manifestations don't contradict anything, neither does SSJR, Shadow Clones, and tearing holes in reality when Gotenks and Super Buu already did that due to raw power at the high levels they were at. Again, Trunks learning the Demon Wave in such a short time contradicts nothing considering Ten learn it in a short manner as well, including Goku in Super.

There's a difference between something being outright illogical (to consistent internal workings of the established narrative) and something you may or may not find illogical.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Simple. This is a tournament unlike any before. No longer merely one-on-one fights, but AN EIGHTY-FIGHTER BATTLE ROYAL WHERE THERE ARE ONLY RING-OUTS, NO FLYING, NO KNOCKOUT WINS.
How does that change the high power level difference, if anything 79 different people coming at you all at once is far worst than only one. Varying fighters of different levels still does not change the fact a single strong fight can oneshot Kuririn before he could even do anything.
As we see in episode 84 and 85, strategy has proven to be much more valuable with this kind of setup, and will likely be even more so in an environment as chaotic as the Tournament of Power is shaping up to be.
Against one person this is easy to say and even thing we saw Kuririn bucked under pressure against just 1, imagine multiple opponents of similar level coming at him.
Could they portray it better? Sure, but the average viewer most likely gets the basic idea. I personally have doubts that Toyotaro could really portray something on this scale with such unpredictability.
To be honest, I don't find like anyone could accurately and consistently portray something on this scale with such unpredictability. Why? Because doing the viewpoint of 80 different fighters in a confined small area is just no possible. You single viewpoints from multiple characters. The only way you get something like that is in real life and real life is far closer to unpredictability than super powered fiction is. To be honest I don't expect anything really different from the ToP, they say it will be a Battle Royal, but honestly I feel the standard 1 on 1 warrior honor code will still take place.

I honestly feel Toriyama's brain would malfunction trying to do 80 fighter Battle Royal all at once, it just sounds like a total cluster****. Are you aware of Super Smash Bros Brawl? That free for all styled Battle Royal works because its only 5 players on one screen. Now replace 5 players with 80 players on one screen large enough to fit them all in one confined area all at once, it would absolute chaos as that's just way too much. A 18 player online match like Halo works because the map is ridiculously huge and allows for such high number of players, this ToP in DBS, not so much.

I don't expect much because Dragon Ball has always been a character focus point of view. When we do get team battles its always one focused PoV that does not jump all over the place for example, Goku & Piccolo vs Raditz, Kuririn & Piccolo vs Nappa, Kuririn & Gohan vs Guldo, Jeice and Burter vs. Goku, Gohan, Kuririn and Vegeta vs. first form Freeza, and Piccolo, Kuririn, and Gohan vs. Final Form Freeza. Its all precise and contained to one PoV, it doesn't jump all over the place. Do you want to know why Ten, Kuririn, Jaco, Roshi, Piccolo, and Gohan vs. Freeza's forces worked so well in the RoF film? structured power level and focused PoV for only six characters. Hell, it was even a plot point that the Z-Senshi were at a disadvantage for fighting such a large number in such confined small space which is why everyone spread out into more open wide space. That makes sense because Piccolo can't focus if he's kicking ass and backs into Ten who's also kicking ass, that just gets in the other guy's way.

Now its 80 fighters in a very small confined ring, that's bound to get in everyone's way which is why the Battle Royal setting annoys a lot of people. Its basically back pedaling, you can't make it a plot point in RoF, then turn your back on the same plot point in the ToP, that's just lazy bad half-assed inconsistent writing. I'm not saying you have to be a great or amazing writer, this is something a decent/average writer could easily work on, ones that can't are from subpar/lazy/meh writers that have little to no creativity which shows their weakness in that area.
"Before one may reach Heaven, they must endure Hell first. Only then will you be able to attain serenity beyond a sea of strife." & "Fear is not a sign of cowardice but the recognition of danger. Those who ignore this basic emotion do so out of vanity and are thus quelled before victory." - Roy Teal Jr.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by OLKv3 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:50 pm

It's like you're not allowed to criticize this show without someone bringing down DB
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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Commodore Krevin » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:50 pm

I suppose, for me at least, it's because I never really found Z that consistent in the first place. Characters' gains and feats seemed arbitrary and based more on the immediate demands of the plot than any coherent power scale. Hence the oft cited example of Krillin being able to chop off Frieza's tail despite his second-form being tens of times higher than Krillin was at the time. Or Tien being able to hold off Semi-perfect Cell. Or Piccolo being able to go from being notably and significantly weaker than Raditz to like 4 times as strong as him with just a year of training in the wilderness with Gohan but couldn't come close to pulling off similar gains during the much longer time gap between DB and Z eras.

As well I generally believe Super has the right idea even if they don't implement it perfectly. If this is what it takes to get Eighteen or Piccolo or Master Roshi to get some ass kicking time then I heartily approve.

my two cents at least.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:54 pm

SansrivaaL wrote:The Gods of Destruction must learn to be friendly with each other and start having practice matches, then they can all team up and beat Zeno since apparently now its teamwork>>>>>>power no matter how huge the gap may be.
To be fair, Whis has been saying basically this since Resurrection F.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by lord turbo » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:14 pm

Commodore Krevin wrote:I suppose, for me at least, it's because I never really found Z that consistent in the first place. Characters' gains and feats seemed arbitrary and based more on the immediate demands of the plot than any coherent power scale. Hence the oft cited example of Krillin being able to chop off Frieza's tail despite his second-form being tens of times higher than Krillin was at the time. Or Tien being able to hold off Semi-perfect Cell. Or Piccolo being able to go from being notably and significantly weaker than Raditz to like 4 times as strong as him with just a year of training in the wilderness with Gohan but couldn't come close to pulling off similar gains during the much longer time gap between DB and Z eras.

As well I generally believe Super has the right idea even if they don't implement it perfectly. If this is what it takes to get Eighteen or Piccolo or Master Roshi to get some ass kicking time then I heartily approve.

my two cents at least.

-Respectfully, Commodore Krevin
You know, despite what people say, Z was not as arbitrary as they think. Kuririn chopping off Freeza's tail was due to Kienzan, a move pretty much shown to ignore power levels and bypass durability in Z. Ten hold off Semi-Cell was due to the Shin Kikoho, we already got that the regular Kihoho was many levels beyond the Kamehameha, I expect nothing different from a super advance version of it (Folks problems with that scene is probably due to their head-canon refusing to put Ten himself anywhere above the 10,000+ in power level), not necessarily a problem with the story itself. I will admit Piccolo's gains during various time period is based more on the immediate demands of the plot than any coherent power scale like you said earlier, but even still that's over a long period of time, not within a few hours. There are much better ways to improve these characters abilities than the mediocre methods the anime. Lets think about it, Elder Namek style Hidden Power up, Elder Kaioshin Ultimate power up, Super Holy Water, The beat to near-death Freeza method, cybernetic enhancements, North Kaio training, more Kienzan (But non-fatal) type techniques that bypass durability (Regardless of power level), God mode for everyone, Whis training inside the Time Chamber, and the list goes on. I would gladly take any one of those per-established plot devices over what we are currently getting now.
"Before one may reach Heaven, they must endure Hell first. Only then will you be able to attain serenity beyond a sea of strife." & "Fear is not a sign of cowardice but the recognition of danger. Those who ignore this basic emotion do so out of vanity and are thus quelled before victory." - Roy Teal Jr.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Commodore Krevin » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:57 pm

lord turbo wrote:
Commodore Krevin wrote:I suppose, for me at least, it's because I never really found Z that consistent in the first place. Characters' gains and feats seemed arbitrary and based more on the immediate demands of the plot than any coherent power scale. Hence the oft cited example of Krillin being able to chop off Frieza's tail despite his second-form being tens of times higher than Krillin was at the time. Or Tien being able to hold off Semi-perfect Cell. Or Piccolo being able to go from being notably and significantly weaker than Raditz to like 4 times as strong as him with just a year of training in the wilderness with Gohan but couldn't come close to pulling off similar gains during the much longer time gap between DB and Z eras.

As well I generally believe Super has the right idea even if they don't implement it perfectly. If this is what it takes to get Eighteen or Piccolo or Master Roshi to get some ass kicking time then I heartily approve.

my two cents at least.

-Respectfully, Commodore Krevin
You know, despite what people say, Z was not as arbitrary as they think. Kuririn chopping off Freeza's tail was due to Kienzan, a move pretty much shown to ignore power levels and bypass durability in Z. Ten hold off Semi-Cell was due to the Shin Kikoho, we already got that the regular Kihoho was many levels beyond the Kamehameha, I expect nothing different from a super advance version of it (Folks problems with that scene is probably due to their head-canon refusing to put Ten himself anywhere above the 10,000+ in power level), not necessarily a problem with the story itself. I will admit Piccolo's gains during various time period is based more on the immediate demands of the plot than any coherent power scale like you said earlier, but even still that's over a long period of time, not within a few hours. There are much better ways to improve these characters abilities than the mediocre methods the anime. Lets think about it, Elder Namek style Hidden Power up, Elder Kaioshin Ultimate power up, Super Holy Water, The beat to near-death Freeza method, cybernetic enhancements, North Kaio training, more Kienzan (But non-fatal) type techniques that bypass durability (Regardless of power level), God mode for everyone, Whis training inside the Time Chamber, and the list goes on. I would gladly take any one of those per-established plot devices over what we are currently getting now.
Well this is ultimately going to be a subjective trope. If you think Z makes sense I'm glad and don't want to take anything away from your enjoyment of the series. Any and everything following should just be taken as my personal opinion/take on the matter.

A.) Krillin Destructo Disc being able to ignore power levels for no apparent reason then just because Toriyama wanted it too would, to me, reinforce the whole "feats and gains" as plot demands not subvert it. And there would also be the issue that second form Frieza should have been able to dodge it completely being massively more powerful/faster than Goku when he trounced Burter who was vastly faster than Krillin.

B.) I don't have issue placing Tien above the 10,000 + range but I would find it hard to believe he's not hundreds of times weaker then Semi-Cell if not more. The androids/Cell arc really got hit hard with the escalating power levels. For me that's too big a gulf if power levels are supposed to matter.

C.) Well its something of a matter of preference. I kind of find it silly becoming tens if not hundreds of times stronger because you worked out really hard for a year. I prefer a hero being beaten and then, through more grit and determination than raw increase in Ki, he just soldiers through and beats the badguy anyway. Kind of why one of my favorite fights in Z is the Radtiz vs Goku/Piccolo fight. No power ups or transformations they just took the bull by the horn and fought him head on.

D.) There's nothing wrong with the power-ups you mentioned and I would welcome and approve Super pulling any and all of these out. But unless you fix the broken, escalating power curve of Z everyone will be just left in the dust again at the end of the arc/start of the next. Super is at least trying to fix that, downplaying the importance of raw power and emphasis tactics.

But your mention of nonlethal Kienzan type attacks does remind me of one of the facets of Super I don't like. It is a little too "Kid friendly" in my opinion. I wouldn't mind it being a little more like Z where fights ended with you a beaten, bloody mess and arms were messily ripped off and what have you. But that's life.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by lord turbo » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:49 pm

Commodore Krevin wrote:Well this is ultimately going to be a subjective trope. If you think Z makes sense I'm glad and don't want to take anything away from your enjoyment of the series. Any and everything following should just be taken as my personal opinion/take on the matter.
Oh don't get the wrong idea, I can still enjoy a series if it does or doesn't make sense, it depends entirely on execution more than anything for me.
A.) Krillin Destructo Disc being able to ignore power levels for no apparent reason then just because Toriyama wanted it too would, to me, reinforce the whole "feats and gains" as plot demands not subvert it. And there would also be the issue that second form Frieza should have been able to dodge it completely being massively more powerful/faster than Goku when he trounced Burter who was vastly faster than Krillin.
You see, the kienzan doesn't bother me because its literally a one of a kind technique, no other technique has that property but the kienzan. Second form Freeza was able to completely dodge a barrage of kienzan thrown by Kuririn so don't know what you mean there. If anything this was already shown with Nappa, an opponent that could effortlessly oneshot Kuririn with less than half his power, yet the kienzan was capable of dealing fatal damage to the point even Vegeta was very weary of it (probably because he has the move itself so he knows what it can do). This trait for the kienzan has been very consistent in non-filler sequences of the series, you can't really compare it to "feats and gains" as the plot demands, it really subverts it.
B.) I don't have issue placing Tien above the 10,000 + range but I would find it hard to believe he's not hundreds of times weaker then Semi-Cell if not more. The androids/Cell arc really got hit hard with the escalating power levels. For me that's too big a gulf if power levels are supposed to matter.
You see that's the beauty of everything after the Freeza saga, no more numbers means no concrete way to gauge actual power level differences between characters. All we know is Semi-Cell is a lot stronger than Android 16 who is a lot stronger than 17/18 who are a lot stronger than SSJs (Pre-Time Chamber training), who are a lot stronger than 19/20 who may or may not be stronger than Freeza who may or may not be stronger than Ten and company. The last part is really important because really, if Ten is stronger than Freeza or not literally does not change the story one bit, his role remains the same so the gap is far far less severe than a lot people are trying to make it out to be.
C.) Well its something of a matter of preference. I kind of find it silly becoming tens if not hundreds of times stronger because you worked out really hard for a year. I prefer a hero being beaten and then, through more grit and determination than raw increase in Ki, he just soldiers through and beats the badguy anyway. Kind of why one of my favorite fights in Z is the Radtiz vs Goku/Piccolo fight. No power ups or transformations they just took the bull by the horn and fought him head on.
Kind of watching the wrong series then aren't you considering that's the norm from DB to Z to even GT. Goku and Piccolo got effortlessly manhandled by Raditz due entirely from being much weaker than Raditz.
D.) There's nothing wrong with the power-ups you mentioned and I would welcome and approve Super pulling any and all of these out. But unless you fix the broken, escalating power curve of Z everyone will be just left in the dust again at the end of the arc/start of the next. Super is at least trying to fix that, downplaying the importance of raw power and emphasis tactics.
That, I kind of agree with, it wouldn't be a problem is Toriyama did 1 or 2 of 2 things. 1. Stop with the abnormal power escalation that does not enhance the overall story in any meaningful way and 2. Stop increasing characters at wildly varying levels, if you give everyone about equal increases there should never be a problem of "Catch Up" to begin with for lesser characters. Honestly, if Toriyama wanted to make ranks/tiers within the series by using varying levels between characters then I honestly feel the strongest character within a group off say 12 main characters should be no more than 10x, 20x at the most than the weakest character. For simplicity sake I'll use this made up chart as an example.

Roshi: 10, Chaozu: 12, Yajirobe: 15, Yamcha: 18, Ten/Kuririn: 23, Goten/Trunks: 30, 17/18: 36, Piccolo: 45, Gohan: 55, Vegeta: 80, Goku: 100.

Going by the power differences used in DBZ, each gap between each individual character is enough for the stronger one to decisively beat the weaker one with minor issues. There are stills significant difference between characters to have separate tiers, but the gap is not gigantic like say Roshi at 10 and base Goku at 10 million for example. When the gaps are that gigantic its very hard for audience to swallow making these characters relevant again unless you use equally large justification for them like super duper ultra special secret training otherwise you literally write yourself in a corner.
But your mention of nonlethal Kienzan type attacks does remind me of one of the facets of Super I don't like. It is a little too "Kid friendly" in my opinion. I wouldn't mind it being a little more like Z where fights ended with you a beaten, bloody mess and arms were messily ripped off and what have you. But that's life.

-Respectfully, Commodore Krevin
I agree, I do miss the more "mature" nature of Z compared to the "kid friendly' nature of Super, but I chalk that up to a change of times, current Japan censorship would not tolerate 80s/90s Japan censorship.
"Before one may reach Heaven, they must endure Hell first. Only then will you be able to attain serenity beyond a sea of strife." & "Fear is not a sign of cowardice but the recognition of danger. Those who ignore this basic emotion do so out of vanity and are thus quelled before victory." - Roy Teal Jr.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by TheMikado » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:19 pm

As far as the Tien vs Cell argument his Tri beam was a very special attack like the demon containment wave which consumes life force, not ki. It's literally the way a technique should be used to subvert power levels. Tien literally drained his own life force just to temporarily stall Cell. If he was hitting him with normal ki blasts it would be total BS. There's a legit in universe explanation why that worked even though it did no damage, just like Krillins technique has a legitimate reason to cut through Frieza.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Commodore Krevin » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:11 pm

lord turbo wrote:You see, the kienzan doesn't bother me because its literally a one of a kind technique, no other technique has that property but the kienzan. Second form Freeza was able to completely dodge a barrage of kienzan thrown by Kuririn so don't know what you mean there. If anything this was already shown with Nappa, an opponent that could effortlessly oneshot Kuririn with less than half his power, yet the kienzan was capable of dealing fatal damage to the point even Vegeta was very weary of it (probably because he has the move itself so he knows what it can do). This trait for the kienzan has been very consistent in non-filler sequences of the series, you can't really compare it to "feats and gains" as the plot demands, it really subverts it.
Well I wasn't arguing so much that Krillin's Kienzan behaved inconsistently but that its existence in contra to all other ki attacks was inconsistent. That, for no reason apparently other than because Toriyama wanted it to, it ignores power levels. He wanted it to nick Nappa and it nicked Nappa. He wanted it to cut of Freeza's tail and it did. Without any apparent thought or worry to the alleged power scale.

As for the Freeza dodging, that was in reference to the attack that cut off his tail. Despite being massively stronger, and thus faster, he couldn't completely evade it.
lord turbo wrote:You see that's the beauty of everything after the Freeza saga, no more numbers means no concrete way to gauge actual power level differences between characters. All we know is Semi-Cell is a lot stronger than Android 16 who is a lot stronger than 17/18 who are a lot stronger than SSJs (Pre-Time Chamber training), who are a lot stronger than 19/20 who may or may not be stronger than Freeza who may or may not be stronger than Ten and company. The last part is really important because really, if Ten is stronger than Freeza or not literally does not change the story one bit, his role remains the same so the gap is far far less severe than a lot people are trying to make it out to be.


Things do become imprecise following the Namek arc. And I do suspect that had specific numbers remained throughout Androids-Buu arcs, with the serial escalation of battle power, I think power levels would be regarded more as the plot dependent trope they are rather than the serious business fans seem to take it.

As for Tien, its true we have no measurement how strong he or anyone else is for that matter. It's all based on guess work and presumed assumptions on growth on a show where, one way or another, you are as strong as you need to be. And I won't deny I had my own biases which makes trying to be impartial and clinical difficult.
lord turbo wrote:Kind of watching the wrong series then aren't you considering that's the norm from DB to Z to even GT. Goku and Piccolo got effortlessly manhandled by Raditz due entirely from being much weaker than Raditz.
Perhaps. And that may be why I never really "took" to power levels. But I found Z, and subsequently DB, quite amusing. And don't get me wrong, when Goku went Super Saiyan that first time and laid the smack down on Freeza...that was all kinds of cool.

As for the Raditz fight, that's why I like it to so much. They had an uphill fight through adversity pulling out every dirty trick and technique they could so that when they won you felt they'd earned it.

Out of curiosity, what made you first notice/like DB/Z? If I may ask of course.
lord turbo wrote:That, I kind of agree with, it wouldn't be a problem is Toriyama did 1 or 2 of 2 things. 1. Stop with the abnormal power escalation that does not enhance the overall story in any meaningful way and 2. Stop increasing characters at wildly varying levels, if you give everyone about equal increases there should never be a problem of "Catch Up" to begin with for lesser characters. Honestly, if Toriyama wanted to make ranks/tiers within the series by using varying levels between characters then I honestly feel the strongest character within a group off say 12 main characters should be no more than 10x, 20x at the most than the weakest character. For simplicity sake I'll use this made up chart as an example.

Roshi: 10, Chaozu: 12, Yajirobe: 15, Yamcha: 18, Ten/Kuririn: 23, Goten/Trunks: 30, 17/18: 36, Piccolo: 45, Gohan: 55, Vegeta: 80, Goku: 100.

Going by the power differences used in DBZ, each gap between each individual character is enough for the stronger one to decisively beat the weaker one with minor issues. There are stills significant difference between characters to have separate tiers, but the gap is not gigantic like say Roshi at 10 and base Goku at 10 million for example. When the gaps are that gigantic its very hard for audience to swallow making these characters relevant again unless you use equally large justification for them like super duper ultra special secret training otherwise you literally write yourself in a corner.
Wouldn't disagree. And please don't misunderstand, I do think Super is very silly at times. Having the universe threatened to be destroyed from Goku and Beerus fighting and then saying Krillin can kind of/sort of spar evenly with Goku probably topping the list.

But,at the end of the day, I just try to put that aside and enjoy people punching each other in the face and shooting ki beams.
lord turbo wrote:I agree, I do miss the more "mature" nature of Z compared to the "kid friendly' nature of Super, but I chalk that up to a change of times, current Japan censorship would not tolerate 80s/90s Japan censorship.
It's just a shame, one of the things which attracted me to Z was just how seeming "edgy" and "different" it was from everything else I'd seen at that time.

Anyway, I want to thank you for taking the time to respond and talk with me. I appreciate it.

-Respectfully, Commodore Krevin

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Ki Breaker » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:57 pm

SansrivaaL wrote:The Gods of Destruction must learn to be friendly with each other and start having practice matches, then they can all team up and beat Zeno since apparently now its teamwork>>>>>>power no matter how huge the gap may be.
Better yet, make some friends and have questionable obsession over them..
As trunks proved you can eradicate immortality if one kid screams "you can do it!" hard enough..
Friendship>>teamwork>>literal god powers
The Lord moves in mysterious ways but you don't have to. Please use your blinker

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by SansrivaaL » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:09 pm

Ki Breaker wrote:
SansrivaaL wrote:The Gods of Destruction must learn to be friendly with each other and start having practice matches, then they can all team up and beat Zeno since apparently now its teamwork>>>>>>power no matter how huge the gap may be.
Better yet, make some friends and have questionable obsession over them..
As trunks proved you can eradicate immortality if one kid screams "you can do it!" hard enough..
Friendship>>teamwork>>literal god powers
Hmmm seems legit, I mean Marron was spamming the hell out of "GANBATTE" at Krillin, no wonder he could push Goku's wave back even for a moment, thats a huge achievement.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Hitiro » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:40 am

Commodore Krevin wrote:A.) Krillin Destructo Disc being able to ignore power levels for no apparent reason then just because Toriyama wanted it too would, to me, reinforce the whole "feats and gains" as plot demands not subvert it. And there would also be the issue that second form Frieza should have been able to dodge it completely being massively more powerful/faster than Goku when he trounced Burter who was vastly faster than Krillin.
Ki attacks have always been incredibly fast in the story though. More often than not they have been faster than characters. Heck, it took Goku 177 days to run 1 million kms. Piccolo's Ki blast did a third of that distance in mere seconds when he destroyed the moon. Even after Goku trained with Kaio it would still take him several hours to reach that distance. The only reason characters can avoid Ki attacks is because the offset distance they have to travel. If a Kamehameha requires you to move 2 metres in any direction to dodge it and the Kamehameha is shot from a distance of 20 metres then you can be 10x slower than the Kamehameha's travel speed and still manage to dodge it. But of course, it is still a difficult thing to do. It's like trying to dodge a bullet.
Commodore Krevin wrote:B.) I don't have issue placing Tien above the 10,000 + range but I would find it hard to believe he's not hundreds of times weaker then Semi-Cell if not more. The androids/Cell arc really got hit hard with the escalating power levels. For me that's too big a gulf if power levels are supposed to matter.
Why is it too big a gulf? Piccolo has literally fired a Makankosappo with over 3x his battle power. We don't know the cap for how high these techniques can amp a persons battle power. But I wouldn't rule out that the Shin Kikoho could amp a persons battle power 100s if not 1000s of times. It does have the added effect of drawing from ones life force too. One of the only techniques in fact so I would imagine it is a great deal stronger then most other techniques. SSJ Gotenks Super Ghost Kamikaze attack is strong enough to damage Evil(Super) Boo, when it actually takes Gotenks the use of SSJ3 to do that without Ki attacks. And according to the SEG(Super Exciting Guide), if you choose to believe it, SSJ3 is 8x stronger than SSJ. So essentially Super Ghost Kamikaze attack amps SSJ Gotenks Ki by over 8x.
Commodore Krevin wrote:C.) Well its something of a matter of preference. I kind of find it silly becoming tens if not hundreds of times stronger because you worked out really hard for a year. I prefer a hero being beaten and then, through more grit and determination than raw increase in Ki, he just soldiers through and beats the badguy anyway. Kind of why one of my favorite fights in Z is the Radtiz vs Goku/Piccolo fight. No power ups or transformations they just took the bull by the horn and fought him head on.
But that fight went down that way specifically because of raw increases in Ki. Piccolo used a Makankosappo which generated a battle power 3x his own level. Enough to actually kill Raditz. And Gohan also went through a raw increase in Ki to damage Raditz enough for Goku to be able to pin him.

Commodore Krevin wrote:D.) There's nothing wrong with the power-ups you mentioned and I would welcome and approve Super pulling any and all of these out. But unless you fix the broken, escalating power curve of Z everyone will be just left in the dust again at the end of the arc/start of the next. Super is at least trying to fix that, downplaying the importance of raw power and emphasis tactics.
It is that very thing that Super is trying to address in the tournament of power arc. They are bringing in characters who have a lot of tricks up their sleeves to offset the power difference. Kuririn demonstrated this in his battle with Gohan. It is more effective in the tournament of power because of the fact that they can't fly and the rules of the game.
Commodore Krevin wrote:But your mention of nonlethal Kienzan type attacks does remind me of one of the facets of Super I don't like. It is a little too "Kid friendly" in my opinion. I wouldn't mind it being a little more like Z where fights ended with you a beaten, bloody mess and arms were messily ripped off and what have you. But that's life.
I don't know. I thought Mirai Bulma being vaporised by Goku Black was pretty brutal. The Mirai Trunks arc was certainly one of the darker settings of the anime.

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Shuby » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:39 am

So there seems to be a consensus that anyone who wants some sort of consistency in strength is regarded as not being a real fan of the show or annoying. But when the case represents itself so clearly , why wouldn't you expect people being vocal about it? Would you find the same enjoyment if this wasnt Dragon ball? If no, doesnt that mean your standards for this show has been set low? Or having double- standards?

Power scalling or level was bs to begin with now its turned into 11 and thats bothering people.
Imagine at the end of Buu saga you' re ssj3-tier level and shortly after that you became a god and trained with the likes of Whis for a while in your base form..... now 17 who has been training (how he trained and how he got this strong is unknown yet defenders buy into his power leap but criticize Frieza s leap....ok) training probably all by his own and yet was able to not only push Goku in his base form but also in his ssj form to the point Goku had to transform into his blue form and guess what 17 was still holding back ooh but lets convienently ignore this and say only Goku was the only one holding back.
And lets not forget base Vegeta tanking ssj 3 Gotenks.

So how strong is 17 and how did he get so strong? If you dont know then why are you defending something you yourself have no answers to? And if the broken power scalling does not bother you why do you then bother with people who clearly do? People are vocal about because it keeps happening time and time again.

2) ssb is losing its charm by Goku spamming it.
self explanatory

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Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by TheMikado » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:58 am

Ki Breaker wrote:
SansrivaaL wrote:The Gods of Destruction must learn to be friendly with each other and start having practice matches, then they can all team up and beat Zeno since apparently now its teamwork>>>>>>power no matter how huge the gap may be.
Better yet, make some friends and have questionable obsession over them..
As trunks proved you can eradicate immortality if one kid screams "you can do it!" hard enough..
Friendship>>teamwork>>literal god powers
I see we're now at Fairy Tail, One Piece, Naruto levels.

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