How come people want to rush the arc now?

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by ChaosLordBrandon » Wed May 10, 2017 5:08 pm

perucho1990 wrote:
ChaosLordBrandon wrote: Who said this? Nobody who works at toei has said this or toyo.
Champa has been getting the most screentime out of the Hakaishins aside from Beerus, he collected the SDBs offscreen which they are now on Daishinkan possession, and we have also how Kale, Cabba and Frost look important in the opening as much as the Pride Troopers :think:

They couldve done the recruitment episodes better like first half of the episode: Goku recruits x fighter, 2nd half of the episode: Non Universe 7 stuff, and so on, you build the ToP like its a big deal, we would get to know more about the other Universes and their fighters.

There is potential in this arc like the U6 Saiyans; Caulifla, Kale, Cabba could be a fun trio, Toei couldve also shown where in the world is Frost, Hit training, Botamo and Magetta whereabouts.

If they want gags, why not have Helles fall in love with a U7 fighter non named Goku(idk like 17 or Vegeta, who look handsome), I know people will complain Toei is reclying the Luffy/Hancock gag, but thats Toei, they like to recycle stuff from their own shows.

Wizardmon sacrifice for Tailmon in Digimon was = Piccolo sacrifice for Gohan, what matters is the execution.
How could Helles fall in love with them, when they weren't even there? and she is supposed to be looking for fighters?

How did you know they won't show that? and Hit got a two parter before the arc and we already know what he is up to.

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by Zagacious » Wed May 10, 2017 5:12 pm

The problem isn't the filler/slice of life episodes existing. It's the fact that we know because they're spending so much time on these episodes that we're afraid they're going to do what they did before and finish the tournament as fast and rushed as possible and spend less episodes on the actual tournament than the episodes revolving around it.

They did this in just about every arc so far. Everyone was looking forward to the first tournament, and it was what, like 3-4 episodes? with 8 episodes of filler around it, and then the actual tournament was extremely rushed and not really explored much except for Hit.

The Black Goku arc they spent a crazy amount of episodes just showing Pilaf, flashbacks of Black Goku destroying stuff, and then several episodes where they are just standing around actually doing nothing for over half of the episode. Then when we get to the actual fight it's just completely rushed and in my opinion seems like very little effort was put into the ending and nothing was explained. I don't see this trend ending.. especially when they're spending so much time on recruiting characters we've already seen who are obviously going to help Goku either way..


Also, the comparisons with Z don't really hold IMO: The saiyan saga we were seeing a new element, the saiyans, and their fighting styles, and also learning some about the lore of Saiyans and Frieza. Stretching out things that better explain the world is fine. These recruitment episodes we're not actually learning anything new about the world except maybe 1 or 2 minor facts like Tien now owning a school, and then the rest of the episode was mostly wasted. It's the same with Namek, yes it was stretched out, but most of it was learning about the lore of Namekians, or Frieza's fighters, or their fighting style, which are all new elements. Visiting characters we've already met and not really expanding upon the world is honestly a waste of episode time, and that's why so many people are getting pissed about it. Z doesn't feel rushed because there is tons of content, the actual content of plot is being stretched out, rather than unimportant side issues being stretched out for tons of episodes.
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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by ChaosLordBrandon » Wed May 10, 2017 5:13 pm

ChaosLordBrandon wrote:
ChaosLordBrandon wrote:The past Tournament arcs in didn't even show one bit of the fighters outside of the main cast and like the only people did do it for was the main foe which was just Tien.

You could write the pokemon out and the past tournaments would barely change.

Giran,Ranfan,Bacterian,Invisible Man,Fangs, Bandages,Spike,Pamput,Man wolf had zero real character at all and did even show up at they got the tournament started and weren't even brought up again. Magetta has been more important than they all were. he actually appeared again and was semi important i the baseball episode after the tournament he was first shown up in was over, and he will be in this one.

I wonder how people would rate the old tournaments today with out nostalgia very much now
. :think:
I'm just gonna repost this and I'm now done in this thread.

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by ChaosLordBrandon » Wed May 10, 2017 5:19 pm

Zagacious wrote:The problem isn't the filler/slice of life episodes existing. It's the fact that we know because they're spending so much time on these episodes that we're afraid they're going to do what they did before and finish the tournament as fast and rushed as possible and spend less episodes on the actual tournament than the episodes revolving around it.

They did this in just about every arc so far. Everyone was looking forward to the first tournament, and it was what, like 3-4 episodes? with 8 episodes of filler around it, and then the actual tournament was extremely rushed and not really explored much except for Hit.

The Black Goku arc they spent a crazy amount of episodes just showing Pilaf, flashbacks of Black Goku destroying stuff, and then several episodes where they are just standing around actually doing nothing for over half of the episode. Then when we get to the actual fight it's just completely rushed and in my opinion seems like very little effort was put into the ending. I don't see this trend ending.. especially when they're spending so much time on recruiting characters we've already seen who are obviously going to help Goku either way..
Champa had four build episodes and the tournment it self was 8 33-41 episodes long.

And Goku Black got major screen since he appeared in the first episode of his arc.

I really don't understand this comment points one bit tbh.

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by Zagacious » Wed May 10, 2017 5:29 pm

ChaosLordBrandon wrote:Champa had four build episodes and the tournment it self was 8 33-41 episodes long.

And Goku Black got major screen since he appeared in the first episode of his arc.

I really don't understand this comment points one bit tbh.

Okay 4 episodes on the tournament and 4 on basically just Hit. I still think that's a bit rushed because we didn't get to see the other fighters fight for more than a couple minutes each. This is the last arc before they started getting ridiculous about the stretching out. The Black Goku arc you need to watch again if you didn't notice at least 1/3 of episodes are nothing whatsoever happening except flashbacks of Black Goku destroying stuff and Pilaf.

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by Ajay » Wed May 10, 2017 6:05 pm

ChaosLordBrandon wrote:The past Tournament arc in didn't even show one bit of the fighters outside of the main cast and like the only people did do it for was the main foe which was just Tien.

You could write the pokemon out and the past tournaments would barely change.

Giran,Ranfan,Bacterian,Invisible Man,Fangs, Bandages,Spike,Pamput,Man wolf had zero real character at all and weren't even brought up again. Magetta has been more important than they all were. he actually appeared again and was semi important i the baseball episode after the tournament he was first shown up in was over, and he will be in this one.

I wonder how people would rate the old tournaments today with out nostalgia very much now. :think:
To clarify: my point about showing other fighters during the build-up is exclusive to this arc - I'm not suggesting you need to do this for every single tournament. This one in particular puts the fate of each universe on the line, so to add some weight to the narrative, it would be interesting to see a sympathetic view of universes other than 7. Just showing the Pride Troopers doing their jobs doesn't actually do that. The closest thing we've had to what I'm looking for was in a conversation between all the various gods as they attempted to work out how best to handle the situation. That was interesting!

In the case of the tournaments in Dragon Ball, you actually did get important backstory when it was necessary. Learning of Namu's reasons for being in the tournament turned what could have been a simple match into one where you almost want your hero to lose. That's not the point of that tournament, so while it's a nice addition, it's not essential to what Toriyama was trying to convey in that arc (the real point being that there's always someone stronger out there). However, that sympathetic look at the other contestants is (probably) essential for this upcoming tournament - assuming it's played entirely straight and something doesn't happen to turn things on their head. Put me in situations where I'm not just rooting for U7 to dominate every match. It's almost a given that that's going to happen when U6 and U7's fighters inevitably come up against each other, but I'd like it to be a running theme throughout -- again, going under the presumption there will be no twists.

We're steering way off-topic now, though. That was just one example of how these build-up episodes could have been utilised better. It's not necessarily the best or only way. The main takeaway of my previous post should have been that the content of some of these build-up episodes feels inconsequential, not my off-the-cuff example of what could have worked.
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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by Alruneia » Wed May 10, 2017 6:47 pm

I believe that a lot of this comes from the fact that people just aren't completely used to Dragon Ball on a weekly basis. If you're used to it going faster, you hit that wall when you're all caught up, and you start wanting more, which leads to you wanting the plot to progress quicker.
That said, I think this arc is progressing a little too slowly, and the main thing I'm thinking of is the two 17 recruitment episodes. I really think they should've condensed those into one episode instead. The problem with making this many pre-battle royale episodes is that with the 48 minute time limit, Super has set the tournament up for disappointment length-wise. I mean, we're actually hoping for Frieza minutes to kick in here. That, or something happens (like in the Buu arc), which... you know. Who knows what happens then.
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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by ChaosLordBrandon » Wed May 10, 2017 6:54 pm

Alruneia wrote:I believe that a lot of this comes from the fact that people just aren't completely used to Dragon Ball on a weekly basis. If you're used to it going faster, you hit that wall when you're all caught up, and you start wanting more, which leads to you wanting the plot to progress quicker.
That said, I think this arc is progressing a little too slowly, and the main thing I'm thinking of is the two 17 recruitment episodes. I really think they should've condensed those into one episode instead. The problem with making this many pre-battle royale episodes is that with the 48 minute time limit, Super has set the tournament up for disappointment length-wise. I mean, we're actually hoping for Frieza minutes to kick in here. That, or something happens (like in the Buu arc), which... you know. Who knows what happens then.
I don't even see why people are paying that any mind, most of the whitebeard war happaned in a hour, the sky not changing once is proof. or even most of the pain arc.

also like I before I'm done debating on this topic now.

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by Asura » Wed May 10, 2017 7:14 pm

The pacing isn't the issue here.

I think the real problem people are having now is that a lot of these episodes are just too damn uninteresting.

People knew we'd be having this kind of pacing, and no one complained about it when we first began with Krillin, but now people have had enough because these episodes are just becoming a slog to get through. That's proof enough that the issue isn't the pacing, but the content.

I mean honestly, I wanted this pacing, I'm someone who always watches Super the day it comes out. By the time the second 17 episode aired I thought "Oh I forgot Super was today...meh, guess I'll watch it some other time."

I was just so bored with it that I didn't even want to watch it. I honestly can't even remember whether or not I did eventually watch it. I'm pretty sure I did, but it was just that forgettable and unmemorable.

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by perucho1990 » Wed May 10, 2017 7:18 pm

Asura wrote:The pacing isn't the issue here.

I think the real problem people are having now is that a lot of these episodes are just too damn uninteresting.

People knew we'd be having this kind of pacing, and no one complained about it when we first began with Krillin, but now people have had enough because these episodes are just becoming a slog to get through. That's proof enough that the issue isn't the pacing, but the content.

I mean honestly, I wanted this pacing, I'm someone who always watches Super the day it comes out. By the time the second 17 episode aired I thought "Oh I forgot Super was today...meh, guess I'll watch it some other time."

I was just so bored with it that I didn't even want to watch it. I honestly can't even remember whether or not I did eventually watch it. I'm pretty sure I did, but it was just that forgettable and unmemorable.
They were fine in the beginning but then it went south during the 17 episodes, first that 17 somehow reaches SSJB level and the stupid poachers, that frog alien didnt even get a name, that episode was Copy Vegeta level of bad.

The best thing out of these recruitment episodes is building up Gohan as a top tier fighter, they would be worth if Gohan ends up being the one that defeats Jiren.

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by precita » Wed May 10, 2017 8:24 pm

A lot of hypebole here.

We've had two subpar episodes out of all these recruitment episodes, the second 17 ep and the Tien/Roshi ep. And even then there were some elements of those eps I liked even if they were overall lackluster.

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by Chuquita » Wed May 10, 2017 8:32 pm

I haven't gotten to the point where I forgot about it yet. (That most recently happened with Pokémon; my brief re-visit there is over.) But Super airs at such a distinctive time and day of the week where I live that forgetting it is difficult.

I have however shifted into as low a gear as I'm gonna go unless something truly awful happens to the show.
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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by perucho1990 » Wed May 10, 2017 8:32 pm

precita wrote:A lot of hypebole here.

We've had two subpar episodes out of all these recruitment episodes, the second 17 ep and the Tien/Roshi ep. And even then there were some elements of those eps I liked even if they were overall lackluster.
Thats also how I feel, both frog alien and Yurin were horrible antagonists, I rank the Tenshinhan/Roshi episode being worse because Roshi gag got butchered and Tenshinhan looked pathetic vs Roshi.

The end with Yurin saying "yeah sorry" and then being tsundere toward Tenshinhan, felt like a shit parody of Tatsumaki and Saitama from OPM.

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Wed May 10, 2017 8:55 pm

omaro34 wrote: Waiting a week and watching just 20 minutes requires excellent patience.
It doesn't requiere much patience if you watch multiple other shows weekly.
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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by Diggz92 » Wed May 10, 2017 9:08 pm

I think the pacing should be like GT's fast straight to the point with all the important details mixed in. the future trunks arc kind of did that but it was a bit faster and felt too short at times. Only because the action never lasted longer than an episode also felt rushed in a repetitive way. GT and Z you were always left with a suspense. Of course now a days we have more spoilers than ever so the suspense is kind of gone..
So that's why I think it's hard for people to get into Super. But if everyone was to go back an watch Z they would think it's long. I think they are doing fine as of now in Super the action has been good but wish it longer​ and we see a lot development in characters.

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Wed May 10, 2017 9:20 pm

There will always be people who complain no matter what happens. If Super went directly to the tournament without any build up people would complain it's too rushed. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by precita » Wed May 10, 2017 9:23 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote:There will always be people who complain no matter what happens. If Super went directly to the tournament without any build up people would complain it's too rushed. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Like myself. I much prefer this build-up. I was actually worried the tournament would start only an episode or two after the exhibition matches ended. I'm glad it didn't and they're taking their time.

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by Cipher » Wed May 10, 2017 11:27 pm

So, this also occurred to me this afternoon, and I wanted to actually check the numbers.

I was fairly certain this arc represented the longest time, in terms of number of episodes, the series ever spent in the exposition portion of a story. Which is crazy considering it's not even an adaptation.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

For a bit of an English class review: The exposition phase occurs in a five-phase story structure (which, as a simple action narrative, Dragon Ball universally adheres to) before the rising action. It establishes the foundation for the world, the characters, and may introduce a source of conflict or potential for change to be executed on, with increasing tension, as the story continues. Essentially, you're getting the basic situation, setting everything up for conflict and change, but none of it has actually occurred yet. Needless to say, you don't generally want the exposition to be one of the longest phases of your story because — well — nothing new is happening. You don't, in fact, want it to be very that long at all. In Dragon Ball, at least by my reading, the exposition phase is fairly easy to measure by looking at the space between the first mention of the conflict/plot the story line will focus on, and the first new wrinkle or development — often a realization of that promised conflict/threat — signaling the rising action.

Long story short, it turns out the Universal Survival arc does indeed, in terms of number of episodes, represent the greatest amount of time spent in the exposition phase of the story of any TV arc in the series. This would include the exhibition matches, and I think it's fair to, as other than further hinting at a few of the threats to come, little is offered on top of what episodes 77-78 establish as the thrust of the arc; the main conflict is yet to begin.

To clarify, I'm looking at how long the plot takes from establishing its basic direction/conflict to delivering the next wrinkle/realization of that conflict—this basically just serves to discount the episodic Saiyaman episodes and inter-arc filler, but I do want to note that up front.

Son Goku arc — <1 episode (Goku and Bulma are off adventuring together under the twenty-minute mark)
21st Tenkaichi Budokai arc — 4 episodes (14-18)
Red Ribbon Army arc — 1 episode (29-34; 6 episodes, if you consider everything up to the defeat of Silver to be exposition)
22nd Tenkaichi Budokai arc — 6 episodes (79-83), only if you consider the solo-training filler part of the arc, as the tournament is teased beforehand
Piccolo Daimao arc — <1 episode (Begins with Kuririn's death and immediately lets things spiral from there)
23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc — 10 episodes (123-132), if you consider the entirety of Goku's interactions with God and Popo part of the arc
Saiyan arc — 1 episode (Gohan is kidnapped at the end of episode 2, from which the stakes of the arc continue to climb)
Namek arc — 8 episodes (36-43) from the first mention of the plan to go to Namek to the gang being stranded with Freeza
Cell arc — 8 episodes (118-125) from the return of Freeza to the arrival of the androids
Boo arc — 9 episodes (205-213) from the first mention of the tournament to the appearance of Kaioshin and Kibito, along with the mystery/rising action
Baby arc — 3 episodes until the gang is stranded in space
Super 17 arc — 1 episode
Evil Dragons arc — 1 episode
Battle of Gods adaptation arc — 4 episodes
Resurrection "F" adaptation arc — 5 episodes (15-19) even counting inter-arc filler
Universe 6 arc — 4 episodes (28-31) from the arrival of Champa to the start of the tournament
Future Trunks arc — 2 episodes until the arrival of Goku Black, but I'd more fairly say 9 episodes (47-55) from the arrival of Future Trunks to the first full battle with Black
Universal Survival arc — 14 episodes (77-90) from the first mention of the tournament/setup of the arc to the tournament beginning

The main conflict is established in 77-78 and we've yet to see any real development of it; even if one is more generous than I am, we're still at 8 episodes between the end of the exhibition matches and the beginning of the tournament, an episode count as high as the entirety of the setup for the Namek arc including its canon portions.

Hopefully this addresses, on top of all the episodic content misgivings laid out earlier, some people's feelings of restlessness with the arc. This may also address some of those "I don't know how people could tolerate the original anime if ..." comments. While the older anime, Z especially, sometimes padded plots to untenable degrees (though at least during its weekly airings in Japan, it was always presented as an adaptation/secondary product to the briskly paced manga), that padding nearly universally occurred during the rising action and climax. And while that's unfortunate, in certain ways it's fair to say that's not quite as noticeably deflating. At least something new and substantive is happening in regards to the main conflict, even if it's coming five minutes of real content at a time.

The only other portion of the series that gives it a run for its money would be considering the Z version of the Saiyan arc, at 20 episodes, if one considers its exposition phase as lasting until the arrival against Nappa and Vegeta. But considering the constantly rising stakes from the moment of Raditz's kidnapping Gohan, after
which new developments and angles to the approach conflict continue to be added, that feels somewhat disingenuous. Regardless, even with that approach, this would be second in line.
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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Thu May 11, 2017 12:31 am

Cipher wrote:The only other portion of the series that gives it a run for its money would be considering the Z version of the Saiyan arc, at 20 episodes, if one considers its exposition phase as lasting until the arrival against Nappa and Vegeta. But considering the constantly rising stakes from the moment of Raditz's kidnapping Gohan, after
which new developments and angles to the approach conflict continue to be added, that feels somewhat disingenuous. Regardless, even with that approach, this would be second in line.
The Saiyan Arc is one of those cases where the plot doesn't follow the same formula you referenced. It's actually structured more like two separate, yet conjoined plots. We typically stick them together both because one sets up the other and because the first is too brief to warrant distinction.

Though that's not so much the case in the manga, as there's no second exposition phase.
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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by Cipher » Thu May 11, 2017 12:37 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:The Saiyan Arc is one of those cases where the plot doesn't follow the same formula you referenced. It's actually structured more like two separate, yet conjoined plots. We typically stick them together both because one sets up the other and because the first is too brief to warrant distinction.

Though that's not so much the case in the manga, as there's no second exposition phase.
I thought about that. At the same time, it's hard to consider the introduction of characters like Kaio, and Goku's general progression toward his goal in the afterlife, exposition. Were the viewer unaware the bulk of it is additional material, Gohan has quite a consistent and continuous arc over those episodes as well. Change and progression are in place on both a plot and character level.

At any rate, the episodes between tournament mention and tournament realization this arc clock in at a grand total of one episode less than the entirety of the training for the Saiyans (14 vs. 15).

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