Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

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Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by larzooma » Sun May 28, 2017 1:02 am

I’ve attempted to argue Frieza’s power is overrated, given the time lapse since RoF, but people still rank him in the top 3.

Barring a new level of disregarding power scaling by the writers, will people start to apply some new head canon to reassess the Universe 7 list, If Goku and Frieza spar, and as I predict, Goku wrecks him. A poor showing by Frieza, coupled with what we’ve seen over the recruitment episodes, is there a chance people will finally move Frieza out of third. At the very least, consider Gohan and 17 above him in power. Even Piccolo, I argue is around current SSJ3 Goku level after 88 and 90, which means he would have pushed Goku to go SSJB in a similar spar to 17, given SSJ3 probably rivals the power of a suppressed SSJB with obvious drawbacks making it an obsolete transformation. Even keeping up with Goku as SSJB suppressed with his current power, puts 17, Gohan, and Piccolo above Frieza, who kept up with a fully powered SSJB Goku and Vegeta at the infancy of the transformation. Since RoF, Goku trained for years (3 years in the Room of Spirit and Time alone), fighting Goku Black, Zamasu, Hit, Toppo, etc. While, given his imprisonment in the cocoon, hasn’t gained an ounce of power.

I truly believe the list should be:
1. Goku
2. Vegeta
3. Gohan
4.17/Piccolo
5. Frieza
6.18
7. Tien
8. Krillin
9. Roshi

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sun May 28, 2017 1:03 am

How is Piccolo above Frieza, I don't even think Gohan is above Frieza either, but Piccolo.

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by MagmonKai » Sun May 28, 2017 1:07 am

Yeah mate, Piccolo is no where near Frieza's power level. I think him and Gohan are on equal footing. 17 is right below them.

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by MainJPW » Sun May 28, 2017 1:13 am

Piccolo and Gohan should definitely be below Freeza. Based on feats, the Universal arc synopsis and Toei's bio's Kuririn should be above Tenshinhan.

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by larzooma » Sun May 28, 2017 1:18 am

SaiyanGod117 wrote:How is Piccolo above Frieza, I don't even think Gohan is above Frieza either, but Piccolo.
Given Piccolo easily incapacitated a SSJ2 Gohan with enough power to transform shortly after, and presumably keep up with Gohan in Mystic form for hours of training without the need for one of the sensu beans (used in 90), I'd place him around SSJ3 level. If Goku sparred with Piccolo at that level, he would be forced to transform to blue in the same way he did with 17, given SSJ3 isn't far behind in terms of power (given the level of Goku in his base form), but has incredible drawbacks, making it an obsolete transformation. Even if Piccolo could only hold his own against a suppressed SSJB Goku, after the events of 88 and 90, then he would be up against a far stronger opponent then SSJB from the RoF arc. Goku is far, far more powerful than when he faced Frieza. It's like saying someone who could keep up with SSJ Goku on Namek could keep up with him as SSJ during the Cell games, simply because it's the same transformation. Even 17 is probably only around SSJ3 level, unless he has a huge amount of power hidden. Goku would never use that form again though, given the advantages of SSJB, so any character able to push him beyond SSJ2, forces him into SSJB. People vastly underestimate his power, which I thought would be amended somewhat from his showing in 88, coupled with Gohan's level in 90 and a little head canon. Goku and Vegeta are leagues above themselves at that time given all of the training and battles they've gone through.

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by dragon boss z » Sun May 28, 2017 1:20 am

Piccolo was weaker than first form Frieza in RoF. There is no way he is above golden Frieza. Also he isn't ssj3 Goku level, he isn't even ssj Goku level, and possibly not even base Goku level (depending on the writer that episode).
Also Frieza was stronger than Goku in RoF. Goku probably caught up to him in the U6 arc, and surpassed him in the Black arc. He isn't that far ahead imo without kaioken. But we'll see next episode.

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by larzooma » Sun May 28, 2017 1:24 am

Even if I can never convince people of Piccolo, there's no way he comes close to Gohan or 17 at this point. Gohan may have been asking for his father to push himself higher and higher, but he was keeping up as he went up until KKx10, which even Vegeta can't compete against. Android 17 pushed him to go SSJB, and he kept an unknown amount of his power hidden. Frieza faced off against Goku newly into SSJB, and much weaker. If I said 18 could compete with Vegeta as SSJ still given she did in the Android saga, you would call me crazy because his base is far stronger and SSJ is a multiplier. The same logic applies here, Frieza hasn't gained anything since RoF, while Goku's base is considerably stronger, making all his transformations considerably stronger. He would tear Frieza apart now in SSJ2, and he couldn't tear 17 or Gohan apart, and with a little head canon addition over the events of 88 and 90, he wouldn't be able to tear Piccolo apart as easily either.

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by julianix » Sun May 28, 2017 1:28 am

Goku might beat Freeza once..and it'll either be Freeza letting him as part of his plan or the only time he'll do it before his impending power boost. I can't even believe this is a debate. This isn't GT or filler it's Toriyamas favorite villain. You guys crack me up.

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by larzooma » Sun May 28, 2017 1:28 am

dragon boss z wrote:Piccolo was weaker than first form Frieza in RoF. There is no way he is above golden Frieza. Also he isn't ssj3 Goku level, he isn't even ssj Goku level, and possibly not even base Goku level (depending on the writer that episode).
Also Frieza was stronger than Goku in RoF. Goku probably caught up to him in the U6 arc, and surpassed him in the Black arc. He isn't that far ahead imo without kaioken. But we'll see next episode.
Did anyone watch 88? Piccolo decimated a SSJ2 Gohan, and Gohan was around equal to Goku in 90 in their base form. Given SSJ2 is a multiplier, Piccolo would have had a similar result fighting Goku. People are focusing on outdated arcs. Goku trained for 3 years in the Room of Spirit and Time prior to U6. He would have outclassed Frieza before the events of the tournament. Forget everything afterwards, including a lot more training and zenkai boosts.

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by dragon boss z » Sun May 28, 2017 1:29 am

larzooma wrote:Even if I can never convince people of Piccolo, there's no way he comes close to Gohan or 17 at this point. Gohan may have been asking for his father to push himself higher and higher, but he was keeping up as he went up until KKx10, which even Vegeta can't compete against. Android 17 pushed him to go SSJB, and he kept an unknown amount of his power hidden. Frieza faced off against Goku newly into SSJB, and much weaker. If I said 18 could compete with Vegeta as SSJ still given she did in the Android saga, you would call me crazy because his base is far stronger and SSJ is a multiplier. The same logic applies here, Frieza hasn't gained anything since RoF, while Goku's base is considerably stronger, making all his transformations considerably stronger. He would tear Frieza apart now in SSJ2, and he couldn't tear 17 or Gohan apart, and with a little head canon addition over the events of 88 and 90, he wouldn't be able to tear Piccolo apart as easily either.
You are looking to far into this. Toei makes Goku go SSB against everyone now, and the order of power pretty much will come down to what Toriyama says or who Toei thinks should be the strongest. Frieza is a bigger deal than Gohan and 17 with more hype around him, so I doubt they will make him weaker than them. Plus there would be no need to bring someone so evil on the team if he wasn't one of the strongest.

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by larzooma » Sun May 28, 2017 1:31 am

julianix wrote:Goku might beat Freeza once..and it'll either be Freeza letting him as part of his plan or the only time he'll do it before his impending power boost. I can't even believe this is a debate. This isn't GT or filler it's Toriyamas favorite villain. You guys crack me up.
I'm not saying he won't jump back up to the head of the pack if they keep him around. If anything, overcoming Goku and Vegeta will be the motivation for him to stick around, similar to Vegeta originally. I don't think he will ever lose his will to kill him though.

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by larzooma » Sun May 28, 2017 1:35 am

dragon boss z wrote:
larzooma wrote:Even if I can never convince people of Piccolo, there's no way he comes close to Gohan or 17 at this point. Gohan may have been asking for his father to push himself higher and higher, but he was keeping up as he went up until KKx10, which even Vegeta can't compete against. Android 17 pushed him to go SSJB, and he kept an unknown amount of his power hidden. Frieza faced off against Goku newly into SSJB, and much weaker. If I said 18 could compete with Vegeta as SSJ still given she did in the Android saga, you would call me crazy because his base is far stronger and SSJ is a multiplier. The same logic applies here, Frieza hasn't gained anything since RoF, while Goku's base is considerably stronger, making all his transformations considerably stronger. He would tear Frieza apart now in SSJ2, and he couldn't tear 17 or Gohan apart, and with a little head canon addition over the events of 88 and 90, he wouldn't be able to tear Piccolo apart as easily either.
You are looking to far into this. Toei makes Goku go SSB against everyone now, and the order of power pretty much will come down to what Toriyama says or who Toei thinks should be the strongest. Frieza is a bigger deal than Gohan and 17 with more hype around him, so I doubt they will make him weaker than them. Plus there would be no need to bring someone so evil on the team if he wasn't one of the strongest.

He's insanely strong still, and what's the alternative Yamcha lmao. Honestly, falling behind is a good motivation, if they plan on keeping the character as part of the group. Frieza would never let himself fall behind for long.

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by Freeza9000 » Sun May 28, 2017 1:55 am

larzooma wrote:I truly believe the list should be:
1. Goku
2. Vegeta
3. Gohan
4.17/Piccolo
5. Frieza
6.18
7. Tien
8. Krillin
9. Roshi
#17 I can somewhat understand, but Gohan and Piccolo being above Freeza? No fucking way! Krillin should be above the likes of Tenshinhan and Muten Roshi.

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by emperior » Sun May 28, 2017 3:22 am

The list will be:

1 - Goku (Kaio-Ken)
2 - Vegeta
3 - Freezer
4 - Gohan
5 - 17
6 - Piccolo
7 - 18
8 - Krillin
9 - Roshi
10 - Tenshinan

There's no way they will show Freezer being below anyone but Goku and Vegeta.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by TysonWine » Sun May 28, 2017 5:45 am

My goodness. This thread had potential, but the reasoning behind it is just...my god. Rather Goku spars with Frieza or not, it's pretty obvious that Goku and Vegeta are above him. Sparring would only be useful as motivation for Frieza to get stronger, so he will either remain where he is or improve. Gohan, 17, and Piccolo being stronger would make them God Level, giving universe 7 a total of 6 people with power that rivals the gods. Do you really need power levels to be any more nonsensical?

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by larzooma » Sun May 28, 2017 5:59 am

TysonWine wrote:My goodness. This thread had potential, but the reasoning behind it is just...my god. Rather Goku spars with Frieza or not, it's pretty obvious that Goku and Vegeta are above him. Sparring would only be useful as motivation for Frieza to get stronger, so he will either remain where he is or improve. Gohan, 17, and Piccolo being stronger would make them God Level, giving universe 7 a total of 6 people with power that rivals the gods. Do you really need power levels to be any more nonsensical?
Honestly I see SSJB simply as a transformation, tied to God Ki for Goku and Vegeta, but in no way indicative of their power relative to the actual gods. Neither one has come close to challenging Beerus, and causing one of them to utilize their best form, doesn't mean other character's are "God level" or reached some invisible line with any difference for those characters than any level of power before. None of them have access to God Ki, they've simply improved enough through training, to push Goku beyond the level his normal SSJ forms offer him. I think people put too much stock in the "God" aspect of their transformation, and act as if challenging them suddenly makes you a member of a select "god" club with hidden benefits. Hit was never a god, and doesn't have access to the form of Ki, yet he challenged Goku and still does. Presumably, Jiren and Toppo don't use God Ki either, and they're able to hold their own.

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by larzooma » Sun May 28, 2017 6:07 am

larzooma wrote:
TysonWine wrote:My goodness. This thread had potential, but the reasoning behind it is just...my god. Rather Goku spars with Frieza or not, it's pretty obvious that Goku and Vegeta are above him. Sparring would only be useful as motivation for Frieza to get stronger, so he will either remain where he is or improve. Gohan, 17, and Piccolo being stronger would make them God Level, giving universe 7 a total of 6 people with power that rivals the gods. Do you really need power levels to be any more nonsensical?
Honestly I see SSJB simply as a transformation, tied to God Ki for Goku and Vegeta, but in no way indicative of their power relative to the actual gods. Neither one has come close to challenging Beerus, and causing one of them to utilize their best form, doesn't mean other character's are "God level" or reached some invisible line with any difference for those characters than any level of power before. None of them have access to God Ki, they've simply improved enough through training, to push Goku beyond the level his normal SSJ forms offer him. I think people put too much stock in the "God" aspect of their transformation, and act as if challenging them suddenly makes you a member of a select "god" club with hidden benefits. Hit was never a god, and doesn't have access to the form of Ki, yet he challenged Goku and still does. Presumably, Jiren and Toppo don't use God Ki either, and they're able to hold their own.
I appreciate the clear separation in power between the top two, Goku and Vegeta, and the rest of the Z fighters. Even so, I would like to see some of the historically stronger fighters begin to close the gap a bit, especially Gohan. Piccolo's been the most powerful on a couple of occasions, but only briefly and not in a significant way. Gohan has been the most powerful, against the most powerful foes. He deserves to be close to the top again.

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by TysonWine » Sun May 28, 2017 6:54 am

larzooma wrote:Honestly I see SSJB simply as a transformation, tied to God Ki for Goku and Vegeta, but in no way indicative of their power relative to the actual gods. Neither one has come close to challenging Beerus, and causing one of them to utilize their best form, doesn't mean other character's are "God level" or reached some invisible line with any difference for those characters than any level of power before. None of them have access to God Ki, they've simply improved enough through training, to push Goku beyond the level his normal SSJ forms offer him. I think people put too much stock in the "God" aspect of their transformation, and act as if challenging them suddenly makes you a member of a select "god" club with hidden benefits. Hit was never a god, and doesn't have access to the form of Ki, yet he challenged Goku and still does. Presumably, Jiren and Toppo don't use God Ki either, and they're able to hold their own.
"Honestly I see SSJB simply as a transformation, tied to God Ki for Goku and Vegeta, but in no way indicative of their power relative to the actual gods."

You don't think by transforming into SSJB that Goku and Vegeta close the gap between their power and Beerus? Wow, okay.

Also, you misinterpreted what I meant. When I say "God Level," I don't mean God ki. I meant the strength required to compete with God Goku. So, Frieza reaching God level refers to how he stacks up to other characters who have God ki, not that he has it himself. I believe it's described in-universe as "power that rivals the Gods." This term was specifically used to describe Goku. Frieza before stamina loss can compete with Blue Goku (without KK). Therefore, Frieza "rivals" the gods, and anyone who surpasses Frieza, must also have "power that rivals the Gods." As you mentioned in your own post, this is independent on whether or not a person actually has God ki. So, if you feel that Gohan, 17, and Piccolo are stronger than Frieza, they fit into that category.
larzooma wrote:I appreciate the clear separation in power between the top two, Goku and Vegeta, and the rest of the Z fighters. Even so, I would like to see some of the historically stronger fighters begin to close the gap a bit, especially Gohan. Piccolo's been the most powerful on a couple of occasions, but only briefly and not in a significant way. Gohan has been the most powerful, against the most powerful foes. He deserves to be close to the top again.
Ah, so now we get to the crux of this thread. You want Gohan and Piccolo to be stronger than they are. As a result, you're handcannoning them stronger than Frieza. After all, if they're stronger than Frieza, that's a very impressive power increase.

Stressing over power levels can cause a brain aneurysm. We all have that one character we wish were stronger. However, it may be better to focus on performance rather than power level in the TOP. I want Gohan and Frieza to have the best showings in the TOP. If written correctly, this can happen without the overpowering and nerfing of characters.

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by larzooma » Sun May 28, 2017 7:22 am

TysonWine wrote:
larzooma wrote:Honestly I see SSJB simply as a transformation, tied to God Ki for Goku and Vegeta, but in no way indicative of their power relative to the actual gods. Neither one has come close to challenging Beerus, and causing one of them to utilize their best form, doesn't mean other character's are "God level" or reached some invisible line with any difference for those characters than any level of power before. None of them have access to God Ki, they've simply improved enough through training, to push Goku beyond the level his normal SSJ forms offer him. I think people put too much stock in the "God" aspect of their transformation, and act as if challenging them suddenly makes you a member of a select "god" club with hidden benefits. Hit was never a god, and doesn't have access to the form of Ki, yet he challenged Goku and still does. Presumably, Jiren and Toppo don't use God Ki either, and they're able to hold their own.
"Honestly I see SSJB simply as a transformation, tied to God Ki for Goku and Vegeta, but in no way indicative of their power relative to the actual gods."

You don't think by transforming into SSJB that Goku and Vegeta close the gap between their power and Beerus? Wow, okay.

Also, you misinterpreted what I meant. When I say "God Level," I don't mean God ki. I meant the strength required to compete with God Goku. So, Frieza reaching God level refers to how he stacks up to other characters who have God ki, not that he has it himself. I believe it's described in-universe as "power that rivals the Gods." This term was specifically used to describe Goku. Frieza before stamina loss can compete with Blue Goku (without KK). Therefore, Frieza "rivals" the gods, and anyone who surpasses Frieza, must also have "power that rivals the Gods." As you mentioned in your own post, this is independent on whether or not a person actually has God ki. So, if you feel that Gohan, 17, and Piccolo are stronger than Frieza, they fit into that category.
Of course I think it bridges the gap, but I think despite having God Ki they're both massively outclassed by Beerus, even with the significant power boosts they've both achieved since gaining access to the ki.

I think we have the same meaning in mind when we use God level or tier. The problem is the level is a moving target. Sure, Frieza could challenge SSJB Goku and Vegeta, putting him at the God level. My argument hinges on the fact that I think they've increased to such an extent, he would barely be able to compete with them using God Ki, and honestly I think Goku could put up a fight simply by going SSJ2. A good amout of time has passed since they're meeting, with a good amount of focus on increasing their base forms. Say I'm right, and Goku can keep up with Golden Frieza without the need to transform into SSJB, has Frieza fallen below the God level. If so, who cares. It's an arbitrary line relative to two characters, who happen to have access to the type of ki.
larzooma wrote:I appreciate the clear separation in power between the top two, Goku and Vegeta, and the rest of the Z fighters. Even so, I would like to see some of the historically stronger fighters begin to close the gap a bit, especially Gohan. Piccolo's been the most powerful on a couple of occasions, but only briefly and not in a significant way. Gohan has been the most powerful, against the most powerful foes. He deserves to be close to the top again.
Ah, so now we get to the crux of this thread. You want Gohan and Piccolo to be stronger than they are. As a result, you're handcannoning them stronger than Frieza. After all, if they're stronger than Frieza, that's a very impressive power increase.

Stressing over power levels can cause a brain aneurysm. We all have that one character we wish were stronger. However, it may be better to focus on performance rather than power level in the TOP. I want Gohan and Frieza to have the best showings in the TOP. If written correctly, this can happen without the overpowering and nerfing of characters.
I'll admit I want Piccolo to start to bridge the gap, and join the edges of the upper echelon again, simply as a fan. Gohan on the other hand, I'm basing simply off of his performance in 90. Sure, he asked Goku to transform, but when he goes blue, Gohan throws down and gets in some good shots. I think if the fight stayed at that level, he would have been able to keep up. Plus, given his son's request, Goku was a much stronger version of SSJB, than his fight against 17. Piccolo on the other hand, I'm basing on pretty solid evidence from the two episodes, and some off screen implications. At the very least, I can say he's well beyond the "Super Perfect Cell" cap everyone has placed on him since the Frost fight. He gained a significant amount of power, and I genuinely believe he can hold his own on a level beyond what he could before. Maybe he falls short of 17 in a spar with Goku, but he's near or at the level to push him into SSJB legitimately. Honestly, I don't see that as any bigger a milestone challenging Goku with God Ki, as it was when Piccolo surpassed Vegeta as a SSJ after merging with Kami. It's simply reaching a new plateau in his ability, which given his commitment to training and improving, rivaled only by Goku and Vegeta, is well deserved. I'm hoping we get a little more definitive of a measuring stick in the ToP, when he goes all out and we have other characters to compare him with during the battle.

You're right, it's probably more of a headache to formulate an argument, and try to put together the pieces to convince people a certain character has a certain level of power. As a lifelong Piccolo fan though, 88 and 90 offered a lot in the way of argument to move beyond the Frost fight as the only indication of his current level, and finally have a few pieces of evidence to apply a little head canon to gain a better sense of his current levels.

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Re: Does Goku wrecking Frieza in a spar next episode change the U7 power list?

Post by buutenks » Sun May 28, 2017 9:04 am

larzooma wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:Piccolo was weaker than first form Frieza in RoF. There is no way he is above golden Frieza. Also he isn't ssj3 Goku level, he isn't even ssj Goku level, and possibly not even base Goku level (depending on the writer that episode).
Also Frieza was stronger than Goku in RoF. Goku probably caught up to him in the U6 arc, and surpassed him in the Black arc. He isn't that far ahead imo without kaioken. But we'll see next episode.
Did anyone watch 88? Piccolo decimated a SSJ2 Gohan, and Gohan was around equal to Goku in 90 in their base form. Given SSJ2 is a multiplier, Piccolo would have had a similar result fighting Goku. People are focusing on outdated arcs. Goku trained for 3 years in the Room of Spirit and Time prior to U6. He would have outclassed Frieza before the events of the tournament. Forget everything afterwards, including a lot more training and zenkai boosts.
Erm, did u watch episode 90? Base Goku overpowered Piccolo's demon wave attack. Also, the Gohan that fought Goku in ep 90 is far more powerful than the one Piccolo fought in ep 88. Gohan in ep 88 was Buu saga era ssj2 level, after he went Mystic he got his power vs Buu back and Piccolo got his arm ripped off just by touching Gohan. Then Gohan gets much much stronger and can go toe to toe with ssj2 Goku and can rival ssj blue Goku once Gohan uses his full power.

The scaling is like this kk ssj blue Goku>ssj blue Goku=(rivals)Mystic Gohan(Full Power)>ssj2 Goku=Mystic Gohan(Holding back)>> base Goku>Buutenks/Buuhan>Mystic Gohan(Z)>>Piccolo(ep 88)>ssj2 Gohan(ep 88).

Ofc Piccolo could have gotten stronger like Gohan, however he did not show it in ep 90.

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