So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:53 am

buutenks wrote:Piccolo explains in the manga what happens to people that had done evil or were when Vegeta asked if he will meet Goku. Piccolo says that Vegeta's soul will be cleansed and will be sent to another plane of existance. But since Freeza will never repent, he will forever remain in earth's hell. So Cell most like had his soul cleansed. Plus why bring Cell, when Freeza is such a strong being and can even get stronger.
Cell has Saiyan cells and Freeza's ability to get exponentially stronger very quickly. If given the chance, Cell would easily become MUCH stronger than Freeza

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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by Muffin Man » Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:23 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:
Boo Machine wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:
*cough*... I'm fairly certain it's supposed to be exactly the other way round.
I need a little help understanding what you mean.
I meant it as "unless we have confirmation, we should act like they still happened". I reckon even Kai kept at least some of the scenes in question; it basically doesn't really look like they were written out.

It also doesn't really conflict - well, at least not irreparably so - with Freeza being in his own hell in the first place after being allowed to roam around during some of the filler in Z.
Them all being in hell isn't the major inconsistency, it's the fact that Freeza was shown watching Goku's fight with Buu but was then surprised in RoF when he learned that Goku had defeated Buu.

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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:52 pm

Muffin Man wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:
Boo Machine wrote:
I need a little help understanding what you mean.
I meant it as "unless we have confirmation, we should act like they still happened". I reckon even Kai kept at least some of the scenes in question; it basically doesn't really look like they were written out.

It also doesn't really conflict - well, at least not irreparably so - with Freeza being in his own hell in the first place after being allowed to roam around during some of the filler in Z.
Them all being in hell isn't the major inconsistency, it's the fact that Freeza was shown watching Goku's fight with Buu but was then surprised in RoF when he learned that Goku had defeated Buu.
But... but... maybe the shock of being resurrected or the trauma of beign confined to his private hell lead him to forget.

[spoiler](Agreed.)[/spoiler]

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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by Cabba » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:25 pm

precita wrote:
Cabba wrote:Does it really matter though? Even if their spirits disappear
They can be brought back with the Super Dragon Balls since they can grant any wish
But....nobody is going to do that...lol.
lol i meant in the event that the plot wants to bring one of the characters back it wouldn't break continuity since Super Balls exist
Dbzfan94 wrote:
buutenks wrote:Piccolo explains in the manga what happens to people that had done evil or were when Vegeta asked if he will meet Goku. Piccolo says that Vegeta's soul will be cleansed and will be sent to another plane of existance. But since Freeza will never repent, he will forever remain in earth's hell. So Cell most like had his soul cleansed. Plus why bring Cell, when Freeza is such a strong being and can even get stronger.
Cell has Saiyan cells and Freeza's ability to get exponentially stronger very quickly. If given the chance, Cell would easily become MUCH stronger than Freeza
He didnt though, Cell was already stronger than namkek freeza in the future and he couldnt get stronger he went back to the past to fuse with androids in order to get stronger
Maybe his freeza cell just give him his race traits (space survival, evil etc). Freeza was said to be a prodigy, so maybe he is even above his own race

Cell didn't get Gokus genius in battle either

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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by cheddarsword » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:29 am

All this talk of Cell in Hell has me honestly thinking. As an artificial biological being, does he have what would be considered a soul? I mean, he comes from a home grown... mix of something that resulted in a being that simply attempts to live out his life following his own nature.

If anything, he's a single minded entity that's just following a course that has been predetermined for him. The first original thought he had outside of straight up murder, was the Cell Games and he did so because he thought it would be fun. his life prior to that point was living solely for a purpose. That purpose was to eat, grow and fight. Instinct. Wild nature with a mind on par with human intelligence.

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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by Cetra » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:47 am

cheddarsword wrote:All this talk of Cell in Hell has me honestly thinking. As an artificial biological being, does he have what would be considered a soul? I mean, he comes from a home grown... mix of something that resulted in a being that simply attempts to live out his life following his own nature.

If anything, he's a single minded entity that's just following a course that has been predetermined for him. The first original thought he had outside of straight up murder, was the Cell Games and he did so because he thought it would be fun. his life prior to that point was living solely for a purpose. That purpose was to eat, grow and fight. Instinct. Wild nature with a mind on par with human intelligence.

Cell has a consciousness and an ego, the psychological instance to perceive reality. He is as person alive as we are. That is how psychology works. Our being is many things at once but the essence is the consciousness. Cell has a consciousness. And a developed ego, a sentience. He might be artificially created but that does not mean a thing when it comes to psychology as what matters is there. Same goes for actual AIs in Computer Science, by the way. The moment we succeed in making an AI that is sentient, it is a psychologically existent entity, no matter if there are cells or not for biological life. Of course we have yet to succeed in doing so. The AIs we have are laughable. Not even close to fictional AI.
Last edited by Cetra on Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by cheddarsword » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:51 am

Cetra wrote:
cheddarsword wrote:All this talk of Cell in Hell has me honestly thinking. As an artificial biological being, does he have what would be considered a soul? I mean, he comes from a home grown... mix of something that resulted in a being that simply attempts to live out his life following his own nature.

If anything, he's a single minded entity that's just following a course that has been predetermined for him. The first original thought he had outside of straight up murder, was the Cell Games and he did so because he thought it would be fun. his life prior to that point was living solely for a purpose. That purpose was to eat, grow and fight. Instinct. Wild nature with a mind on par with human intelligence.

Cell has a consciousness and an ego, the psychological instance to perceive reality. He is as alive as we are. That is how psychology works. Our being is many things at once but the essence is the consciousness. Cell has a consciousness. And a developed ego, a sentience. He might be artificial but that does not mean a thing when it comes to psychology as what matters is there.
I want to give you this one, but Android 16 is the same way, except he's all robotics and well thought out programing. Hell, maybe he has a positronic brain? Either way, he's still pure machine, but is as conscious as Cell.

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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by Cetra » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:57 am

cheddarsword wrote:
Cetra wrote:
cheddarsword wrote:All this talk of Cell in Hell has me honestly thinking. As an artificial biological being, does he have what would be considered a soul? I mean, he comes from a home grown... mix of something that resulted in a being that simply attempts to live out his life following his own nature.

If anything, he's a single minded entity that's just following a course that has been predetermined for him. The first original thought he had outside of straight up murder, was the Cell Games and he did so because he thought it would be fun. his life prior to that point was living solely for a purpose. That purpose was to eat, grow and fight. Instinct. Wild nature with a mind on par with human intelligence.

Cell has a consciousness and an ego, the psychological instance to perceive reality. He is as alive as we are. That is how psychology works. Our being is many things at once but the essence is the consciousness. Cell has a consciousness. And a developed ego, a sentience. He might be artificial but that does not mean a thing when it comes to psychology as what matters is there.
I want to give you this one, but Android 16 is the same way, except he's all robotics and well thought out programing. Hell, maybe he has a positronic brain? Either way, he's still pure machine, but is as conscious as Cell.
Yes, Number 16 is an Android but that is exactly the point of the Androids in Dragon Ball: Even those who are actually Androids and not Cyborgs are sentient beings. Gero was so good he was able to make AIs. 16 has a consciousness to perceive reality and an ego. What is a soul even? Many people use "soul" synonymous to "consciousness" and when it comes to the psychological existence whatever "soul" means is not even relevant because that "being conscious" and "being able to perceive reality" is a thing that we definitely know and that is something we should focus way more on as that is what makes us truly existent. It is as close to "the existence of a soul/the essence and core of an entity" as we will ever come. If I am conscious, I am here. If I am not conscious, I am not here. The essence of an individual being. Which is also why a clone never can be you. He has his own instance to perceive reality, no matter if he has 100% information you have. When it comes to "essence of an individual", soul and consciousness or existential core are interchangeable. A human being develops the next stage, the ego, to perceive reality as a self-aware entity. The AIs in Dragon Ball both can perceive reality with a consciousness and perceive it as individuals. This might be a shock for you now but our brain is also a computer full of programs. We might now leave stuff like "free will" aside. It does not matter for this if that is a thing or not. What really matters is, there is a way to conclude "what makes us exist", no matter if there is a program or not. And Cell and the AIs also have these instances to perceive reality. What am I even? A shell - an important component + some psychological processes including something that makes it possible to perceive reality and meanwhile creates the existence of a Self.

Siegmund Freud said and wrote a lot of crap about psychology. But his dynamics of personality about the ego, super ego and id are one of the most fantastic and true things to ever define psychological themes. His infantile sexuality work not so much though. Uhum.
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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:09 am

cheddarsword wrote:All this talk of Cell in Hell has me honestly thinking. As an artificial biological being, does he have what would be considered a soul? I mean, he comes from a home grown... mix of something that resulted in a being that simply attempts to live out his life following his own nature.

If anything, he's a single minded entity that's just following a course that has been predetermined for him. The first original thought he had outside of straight up murder, was the Cell Games and he did so because he thought it would be fun. his life prior to that point was living solely for a purpose. That purpose was to eat, grow and fight. Instinct. Wild nature with a mind on par with human intelligence.
I already explained that Cell is bio-engineered and has ki plus King Kai was surprised to not see his soul in the afterlife. He's defnitely viewed as a living being by the gods.

Cell was also only programmed to absorb #17 and #18. Everything else he did was all on him. Wild animals only kill to survive and don't really have free will while Cell clearly did and killed solely for personal gain (increasing his powers) or his own amusement. Not to mention he got off on causing terror which is why he announced the whole Cell Games and would probably only continue to kill more people if he was brought back.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by cheddarsword » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:55 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
cheddarsword wrote:All this talk of Cell in Hell has me honestly thinking. As an artificial biological being, does he have what would be considered a soul? I mean, he comes from a home grown... mix of something that resulted in a being that simply attempts to live out his life following his own nature.

If anything, he's a single minded entity that's just following a course that has been predetermined for him. The first original thought he had outside of straight up murder, was the Cell Games and he did so because he thought it would be fun. his life prior to that point was living solely for a purpose. That purpose was to eat, grow and fight. Instinct. Wild nature with a mind on par with human intelligence.
I already explained that Cell is bio-engineered and has ki plus King Kai was surprised to not see his soul in the afterlife. He's defnitely viewed as a living being by the gods.

Cell was also only programmed to absorb #17 and #18. Everything else he did was all on him. Wild animals only kill to survive and don't really have free will while Cell clearly did and killed solely for personal gain (increasing his powers) or his own amusement. Not to mention he got off on causing terror which is why he announced the whole Cell Games and would probably only continue to kill more people if he was brought back.
How interesting then. It seems that within the Dragon Ball universe, mortals have the ability to create souls then. Normally, that is something that is reserved solely for the gods.

Whatever, at least that little debate is cleared up.

I'm still curious about 16 though. He's treated as if he doesn't have one. At least, that's how I see it.

Interesting though, that an android can become a Hakaishin. guess I was wrong then? I just feel like you would need something like a Soul to be able to accurately judge weather or not something is worthy of destruction.

At any rate, I don't want this topic to become a debate about the existence and definition of souls. That... would be messy.

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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by sunkensheep » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:07 am

cheddarsword wrote:Interesting though, that an android can become a Hakaishin. guess I was wrong then? I just feel like you would need something like a Soul to be able to accurately judge weather or not something is worthy of destruction.
We don't know if he's a machine, he could be a living being with a soul like Magetta.

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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by cheddarsword » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:43 am

sunkensheep wrote:
cheddarsword wrote:Interesting though, that an android can become a Hakaishin. guess I was wrong then? I just feel like you would need something like a Soul to be able to accurately judge weather or not something is worthy of destruction.
We don't know if he's a machine, he could be a living being with a soul like Magetta.
So, what, like the true Mechons in Xenoblade? Mechanical life forms?

Considering the way he interrogated Nalilama, I'd say he's more than capable of thinking for himself, and to use the term that Cetra butchered, "I think, therefore I am."

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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by Kepiaschkz » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:49 am

LowRyder2005 wrote:
Muffin Man wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:
I meant it as "unless we have confirmation, we should act like they still happened". I reckon even Kai kept at least some of the scenes in question; it basically doesn't really look like they were written out.

It also doesn't really conflict - well, at least not irreparably so - with Freeza being in his own hell in the first place after being allowed to roam around during some of the filler in Z.
Them all being in hell isn't the major inconsistency, it's the fact that Freeza was shown watching Goku's fight with Buu but was then surprised in RoF when he learned that Goku had defeated Buu.
But... but... maybe the shock of being resurrected or the trauma of beign confined to his private hell lead him to forget.

[spoiler](Agreed.)[/spoiler]
Freeza was first seen in his mecha form in RoF which contradicts all the Z fillers where he is shown in his unaltered final form. This confirms all the Hell's fillers of Z aren't considered as part of Super's continuity anymore.

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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by precita » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:26 pm

Kepiaschkz wrote:
Freeza was first seen in his mecha form in RoF which contradicts all the Z fillers where he is shown in his unaltered final form. This confirms all the Hell's fillers of Z aren't considered as part of Super's continuity anymore.
Even then Hell has never been consistent in the anime anyway, so I don't think it really matters. I dislike Freeza being in his cyborg form in Hell in the first place, Toei got it right when they showed Freeza in the beginning of the Buu saga in his natural form again. Why wouldn't he have his original body back in death?

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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by sunkensheep » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:45 pm

precita wrote:
Kepiaschkz wrote:
Freeza was first seen in his mecha form in RoF which contradicts all the Z fillers where he is shown in his unaltered final form. This confirms all the Hell's fillers of Z aren't considered as part of Super's continuity anymore.
Even then Hell has never been consistent in the anime anyway, so I don't think it really matters. I dislike Freeza being in his cyborg form in Hell in the first place, Toei got it right when they showed Freeza in the beginning of the Buu saga in his natural form again. Why wouldn't he have his original body back in death?
I think it makes sense that he's in that state, since he died on earth as a cyborg. What they did in the afterlife was just putting together the pieces he was cut into. The rest of his body - if anything survived - was on Namek, and regenerating those parts was not their duty.

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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by lancerman » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:28 pm

precita wrote:
Kepiaschkz wrote:
Freeza was first seen in his mecha form in RoF which contradicts all the Z fillers where he is shown in his unaltered final form. This confirms all the Hell's fillers of Z aren't considered as part of Super's continuity anymore.
Even then Hell has never been consistent in the anime anyway, so I don't think it really matters. I dislike Freeza being in his cyborg form in Hell in the first place, Toei got it right when they showed Freeza in the beginning of the Buu saga in his natural form again. Why wouldn't he have his original body back in death?
The problem is that every other instance of hell is some sort of filler. Then you have this hell created by Toriyama that directly contradicts all the other ones. Super has been wishy washy with filler being canon, but it's kinda tough to dispute Toriyama making a version of hell that ignores the filler versions. Especially when there was no reason at all that Freeza couldn't have just returned to life from the filler hell. It wouldn't have changed anything. It was deliberately intended to be the creators version of Hell for Freeza and the creator's overall concept for hell.

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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by Lord Frieza » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:51 am

I know this is old hat at this point but this is another bit if evidence that GT and Super are not comparable.

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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by Arugela » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:40 pm

I think this subject just all points out the true answer. Goku is the most unrepentant of all and they will just have to tolerate him for all of eternity after he dies.

I still think they will make GT cannon. Or keep it. All they have to do is have zeno remove god ki access. Maybe say he allows it for special purposes. Then take it after it's purpose is complete. They could even wipe their memory for good measure if needed. Or remove access by wiping/modifying their memories.
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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by Hellspawn28 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:44 pm

precita wrote:
Kepiaschkz wrote:
Freeza was first seen in his mecha form in RoF which contradicts all the Z fillers where he is shown in his unaltered final form. This confirms all the Hell's fillers of Z aren't considered as part of Super's continuity anymore.
Even then Hell has never been consistent in the anime anyway, so I don't think it really matters. I dislike Freeza being in his cyborg form in Hell in the first place, Toei got it right when they showed Freeza in the beginning of the Buu saga in his natural form again. Why wouldn't he have his original body back in death?
Freeza being in his cybog body in Hell made sense since he die as a cyborg. Dr. Gero in Hell in the fillers shown that he is still a cyborg after death. So why Freeza back to his original body after death and not Dr. Gero? Won't #18 and #17 return back to humans after they die too?
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Re: So it seems confirmed Cell and the other older villains no longer exist in Hell

Post by Arugela » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:33 pm

Maybe hell not being consistent is part of what makes it hell. King Yemma sure seems stressed out all the time! ><
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