Why are people complaining about Universe 6 Saiyans??

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Re: Why are people complaining about Universe 6 Saiyans??

Post by Yedis » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:16 pm

I understood everything OP was trying to convey, the red corrective text is unnecessary.
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Re: why are people complaining about universum 6 saiyans??

Post by Basaku » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:19 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote: Universe 6 Saiyans were already explained to be different form Universe 7 Saiyans in Champa arc.
That explanation no longer applies thougb after they showed Caulifla's brother and her gang buddies
FortuneSSJ wrote:Toriyama once said hybrids like Goten/Trunks who born without tails have the biggest potential.
Did he actually? Too lazy to post Whitney receipts.gif so just gonna ask for :P

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Re: why are people complaining about universum 6 saiyans??

Post by FortuneSSJ » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:32 pm

Basaku wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote: Universe 6 Saiyans were already explained to be different form Universe 7 Saiyans in Champa arc.
That explanation no longer applies thougb after they showed Caulifla's brother and her gang buddies
Yes, it does. They didn't born with tails and we still have not see them conquering planets and killing people.
Caulifla being a punk doesn't make the U6 Saiyans the same than U7 Saiyans.
Basaku wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:Toriyama once said hybrids like Goten/Trunks who born without tails have the biggest potential.
Did he actually? Too lazy to post Whitney receipts.gif so just gonna ask for :P
From Daizenshuu 4:
The tailless second generation are super ultra child prodigies. Saiyan genes have an extraordinarily good compatibility with Earthling blood. Because of this, when the two races are mixed together children with formidable power are born. Particularly, those Halflings born without tails hide an exceptional battle power. There are many things that they naturally master from a young age, such as the ordinarily arduous transformation into a Super Saiyan. In spite of having such an outstanding battle sense, they do not have a fondness for battle like a pure Saiyan. Instead, it seems that the violent temperament of the Saiyan has been relaxed through their Earthling blood.
Source: http://web.archive.org/web/201111040711 ... =race#link
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Re: why are people complaining about universum 6 saiyans??

Post by Basaku » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:48 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote: Yes, it does. They didn't born with tails and we still have not see them conquering planets and killing people.
Caulifla being a punk doesn't make the U6 Saiyans the same than U7 Saiyans.
True on the tails/conqueror nature part, but not on thin design. Renso looks like U7 Saiyan
FortuneSSJ wrote: From Daizenshuu 4:
The tailless second generation are super ultra child prodigies. Saiyan genes have an extraordinarily good compatibility with Earthling blood. Because of this, when the two races are mixed together children with formidable power are born. Particularly, those Halflings born without tails hide an exceptional battle power. There are many things that they naturally master from a young age, such as the ordinarily arduous transformation into a Super Saiyan. In spite of having such an outstanding battle sense, they do not have a fondness for battle like a pure Saiyan. Instead, it seems that the violent temperament of the Saiyan has been relaxed through their Earthling blood.
Source: http://web.archive.org/web/201111040711 ... =race#link
I guess it's a classic case of Toriyama forgot then because you know, Gohan and the tail

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Re: why are people complaining about universum 6 saiyans??

Post by FortuneSSJ » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:07 pm

Basaku wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote: From Daizenshuu 4:
The tailless second generation are super ultra child prodigies. Saiyan genes have an extraordinarily good compatibility with Earthling blood. Because of this, when the two races are mixed together children with formidable power are born. Particularly, those Halflings born without tails hide an exceptional battle power. There are many things that they naturally master from a young age, such as the ordinarily arduous transformation into a Super Saiyan. In spite of having such an outstanding battle sense, they do not have a fondness for battle like a pure Saiyan. Instead, it seems that the violent temperament of the Saiyan has been relaxed through their Earthling blood.
Source: http://web.archive.org/web/201111040711 ... =race#link
I guess it's a classic case of Toriyama forgot then because you know, Gohan and the tail
Most likely.
I like to think Goten/kid Trunks unlocked it easier because when their parents were making them, Goku/Vegeta could already use SSJ which made them "inherit it", but that's not the official explanation. What a lazy writing. :P
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Re: why are people complaining about universum 6 saiyans??

Post by Zagacious » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:09 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:
Asura wrote: And you're right, it is nostalgia. Nostalgia for some sensible and satisfying writing regarding transformations that is, which Super has yet to receive.
It's nostalgia mixed with hypocrisy when Goten/kid Trunks had no valid reasons to became SSJ and you conveniently leave that out.
I've listed plenty of reasons Goten and Trunks went SSJ so easily which are a lot better reasons than 'Caulifla is a badass' but no one wants to acknowledge those so they can keep using goten trunks as an excuse to justify anything these saiyans can do. Cabba was handled well, the other 2 were simply way too rushed. It's not surprising they are powerful enough , it's just the way in which they did it was half assed.

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Re: why are people complaining about universum 6 saiyans??

Post by Basaku » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:26 pm

Zagacious wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:
Asura wrote: And you're right, it is nostalgia. Nostalgia for some sensible and satisfying writing regarding transformations that is, which Super has yet to receive.
It's nostalgia mixed with hypocrisy when Goten/kid Trunks had no valid reasons to became SSJ and you conveniently leave that out.
I've listed plenty of reasons Goten and Trunks went SSJ so easily which are a lot better reasons than 'Caulifla is a badass' but no one wants to acknowledge those so they can keep using goten trunks as an excuse to justify anything these saiyans can do. Cabba was handled well, the other 2 were simply way too rushed. It's not surprising they are powerful enough , it's just the way in which they did it was half assed.
Especially if we consider how mnay episodes we'll end up with devoted to recruitement period, they could've paced it out much better.

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Re: Why are people complaining about Universe 6 Saiyans??

Post by Lord Frieza » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:33 pm

Because: Insert Answer Here

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Re: why are people complaining about universum 6 saiyans??

Post by Boo Machine » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:40 pm

Zagacious wrote: I've listed plenty of reasons Goten and Trunks went SSJ so easily which are a lot better reasons than 'Caulifla is a badass' but no one wants to acknowledge those so they can keep using goten trunks as an excuse to justify anything these saiyans can do. Cabba was handled well, the other 2 were simply way too rushed. It's not surprising they are powerful enough , it's just the way in which they did it was half assed.
People don't use Goten and trunks to handwave the other saiyans doing anything. (at least I don't think so). People use Goten and Trunks to question why it's suddenly not ok for someone to get Super saiyan with almost no build up when Goten and Trunks got no build up with the same result. Both of them just popped into it one day and said "Oh yeah, I can do this now."
Zagacious wrote: Goten and Trunks explanation was that they were half saiyans and get power much easier / have more potential. The whole end of Cell saga was trying to prove this by having Gohan and FT stronger than Goku and Vegeta respectively, so Goten and Trunks was hardly just out of nowhere for the sake of the plot like they are doing now.
That wasn't goten and trunks explanation. The explanation came after the series had ended. Which was that a Half Saiyan being born without a tail gave them massive potential. But before then we just had to assume that Goten and Trunks could do it simply because or make up some head canon like 'They could do it because the fathers were super saiyans."
Zagacious wrote:There were also a few scenes in the Great Saiyaman saga where young Trunks (Not FT) was shown watching Vegeta come out of training in SS form. Trunks was not surprised by this. This leads to a possible conclusion that he has seen his father in SS many times, possibly for years, making it much easier for Trunks to get it and train it to Goten. When Gohan or someone else mentions that they went SS, Vegeta already knows.
A "Possible" conclusion. Not one that was stated. Not that I am in the camp of "everything must be stated or it's not true" but if were going to use assumptions for Goten and Trunks then why is it not ok to make assumption about U6 Saiyans? That's my question.
Zagacious wrote:Headcanon reason:
It also makes some sense with how power works in this universe, that Goku and Vegeta would hand down some power capabilities to their sons. If Ki/Energy is a real thing in this universe, then it would make some sense that a new born energy body (Goten/Trunks) who is based on an incredibly strong parent, would be born naturally stronger than if was just born of another random Saiyan.
Kinda like this.^

Not to say they couldn't have been built up. They certainly could. We got 2 episodes of this recruitment stuff that were straight up nothing so far and that could have been used on the U6 Saiyans. Especially since it appears that they might be major players. It would certainly help sell their characters better besides just being Saiyans.
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Re: Why are people complaining about Universe 6 Saiyans??

Post by Metalwario64 » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:44 pm

Lujin_16 wrote:They complain how different the transformation is and how easy it was for them, especially in Facebook (posts/conversations/comments?) so what do you think about that??

I feel like some people are never happy with Dragonball Super and that's really sad. I mean, I don't complain about it because for me it makes sense: they are from universe 6 and (are) different Saiyans; they are not bad Saiyans like Planet Vegeta Saiyans in universe 7.

I think it is the nostalgia of some people who complain about how amazing the transformation was back then with anger and screaming (for) 10 minutes, but man let it go.
Why are people complaining about people not liking the same things as them? One has to be seriously close minded if they can't accept that not everyone's going to like Super, let alone every little thing from it.

And of course, the "nostalgia" argument that I'm seriously tired to death of. You're painting everyone who dislikes Super as if they do so just because it's "not from ye olden days". On the contrary, I actually see quite a few people love Super just because it's new Dragon Ball; as Kunzait brought up those with the mindset of "I just want more Dragon Ball!".

I've discussed nostalgia to death on these forums, and I openly admit when I like things for nostalgia. The thing is, sometimes older things can be outright better than new things, but it's not because they're older.
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Re: why are people complaining about universum 6 saiyans??

Post by Zagacious » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:10 pm

Boo Machine wrote:
Zagacious wrote: I've listed plenty of reasons Goten and Trunks went SSJ so easily which are a lot better reasons than 'Caulifla is a badass' but no one wants to acknowledge those so they can keep using goten trunks as an excuse to justify anything these saiyans can do. Cabba was handled well, the other 2 were simply way too rushed. It's not surprising they are powerful enough , it's just the way in which they did it was half assed.
People don't use Goten and trunks to handwave the other saiyans doing anything. (at least I don't think so). People use Goten and Trunks to question why it's suddenly not ok for someone to get Super saiyan with almost no build up when Goten and Trunks got no build up with the same result. Both of them just popped into it one day and said "Oh yeah, I can do this now."
Zagacious wrote: A "Possible" conclusion. Not one that was stated. Not that I am in the camp of "everything must be stated or it's not true" but if were going to use assumptions for Goten and Trunks then why is it not ok to make assumption about U6 Saiyans? That's my question.
Zagacious wrote:Headcanon reason:
It also makes some sense with how power works in this universe, that Goku and Vegeta would hand down some power capabilities to their sons. If Ki/Energy is a real thing in this universe, then it would make some sense that a new born energy body (Goten/Trunks) who is based on an incredibly strong parent, would be born naturally stronger than if was just born of another random Saiyan.
Kinda like this.^

Not to say they couldn't have been built up. They certainly could. We got 2 episodes of this recruitment stuff that were straight up nothing so far and that could have been used on the U6 Saiyans. Especially since it appears that they might be major players. It would certainly help sell their characters better besides just being Saiyans.
The difference is that the reasons for Goten Trunks possibly being able to go SS are based on things that actually happened in universe that I listed, and being the sons of Goku and Vegeta are a pretty valid reason alone for most people. Super Saiyan was supposed to be a legendary thing so it's not surprising at all the sons of the only known Super Saiyans can go SSJ very easily. There's nothing we've seen so far to justify the 2 new Saiyans going SSJ so easily. We haven't seen them fighting or manipulating ki or anything, so just saying she is a combat genius doesn't really mean anything. Almost every hero and villain we've encountered can be considered a combat genius. It'd be one thing if we saw brand new Saiyans and they had already gone SSJ in the past, but these Saiyans haven't even't heard of it. Caulifla went SS in literally like 15 seconds, and then minutes later SSJ2 in a battle where she wasn't even struggling. With all these recruitment episodes and stuff they completely wasted time on and they decide to rush the new Saiyans going SSJ, very bad choice IMO and is the reason for a majority of the people hating on them. They were heading in the right direction when they made Kale struggle, but even that was extremely rushed and making an exact Broly copy with his same hand gesture kind of ruined the moment.

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Re: why are people complaining about universum 6 saiyans??

Post by Boo Machine » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:22 pm

Zagacious wrote:
The difference is that the reasons for Goten Trunks possibly being able to go SS are based on things that actually happened in universe that I listed. There's nothing we've seen so far to justify the 2 new Saiyans going SSJ so easily. We haven't seen them fighting or manipulating ki or anything, so just saying she is a combat genius doesn't really mean anything. Almost every hero and villain we've encountered can be considered a combat genius. It'd be one thing if we saw brand new Saiyans and they had already gone SSJ in the past, but these Saiyans haven't even't heard of it. Caulifla went SS in literally like 15 seconds, with all these recruitment episodes and stuff they completely wasted time on and they decide to rush the new Saiyans going SSJ, very bad choice IMO and is the reason for a majority of the people hating on them. They were heading in the right direction when they made Kale struggle, but even that was extremely rushed and making an exact Broly copy with his same hand gesture kind of ruined the moment.
I'm not arguing that build up was wasn't wasted. It was. But Caulifla Transforming can very much be based on stuff we have seen. Born with no tail and has potential. Transformed with no fan fare. Sounds exactly like Goten and Trunks. We may not have seen U6 sayians Fighting but we know they can. They're saiyans. What else would they do? It's not like Cabba picked up two random Saiyans on the street. Caulifla is known in-universe to have Potential. That has to be for a reason.

No one called Caulifla a combat genius. That's Gokus excuse for being able to do stuff like learn the Kamehameha so fast. Potential was Cauliflas thing. Which I've already said is a weak explanation. But it is an explanation. Throwing in that they have no tail as a possible aid in the transformation is also an assumption but it is one based on stuff we know about saiyans already .
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Re: why are people complaining about universum 6 saiyans??

Post by Zagacious » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:37 pm

Boo Machine wrote:No one called Caulifla a combat genius. That's Gokus excuse for being able to do stuff like learn the Kamehameha so fast. Potential was Cauliflas thing. Which I've already said is a weak explanation. But it is an explanation. Throwing in that they have no tail as a possible aid in the transformation is also an assumption but it is one based on stuff we know about saiyans already .
Someone in the episode 91-93 stated she was a combat genius. I think that was Cabba. Only thing we have to go by, that is why people are complaining though. The lack of explanation. A lack of explanation in the past is not an acceptable reason for most people.

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Re: why are people complaining about universum 6 saiyans??

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:41 pm

Boo Machine wrote: I'm not arguing that build up was wasn't wasted. It was. But Caulifla Transforming can very much be based on stuff we have seen. Born with no tail and has potential. Transformed with no fan fare. Sounds exactly like Goten and Trunks. We may not have seen U6 sayians Fighting but we know they can. They're saiyans. What else would they do? It's not like Cabba picked up two random Saiyans on the street. Caulifla is known in-universe to have Potential. That has to be for a reason.

No one called Caulifla a combat genius. That's Gokus excuse for being able to do stuff like learn the Kamehameha so fast. Potential was Cauliflas thing. Which I've already said is a weak explanation. But it is an explanation. Throwing in that they have no tail as a possible aid in the transformation is also an assumption but it is one based on stuff we know about saiyans already .
Her official profile does say she has a "genius battle sense" and Cabba likewise calls her a genius for picking up Super Saiyan as quickly as she did. I don't know if that's quite the same as what Goku does but I wouldn't be surprised if it is.

I'm not bothered by the U6 Saiyans picking up Super Saiyan as easily as they did or being as strong as they are. Rather, I find it ridiculous that the U7 Saiyans (the ones outside of Goku and Vegeta's families) were as weak as they were considering all the absurd power boosts the surviving ones got. They got hit by power creep hard.

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Re: why are people complaining about universum 6 saiyans??

Post by Boo Machine » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:50 pm

Zagacious wrote:
Boo Machine wrote:No one called Caulifla a combat genius. That's Gokus excuse for being able to do stuff like learn the Kamehameha so fast. Potential was Cauliflas thing. Which I've already said is a weak explanation. But it is an explanation. Throwing in that they have no tail as a possible aid in the transformation is also an assumption but it is one based on stuff we know about saiyans already .
Someone in the episode 91-93 stated she was a combat genius. I think that was Cabba. Only thing we have to go by, that is why people are complaining though. The lack of explanation. A lack of explanation in the past is not an acceptable reason for most people.
I can understand not liking little explanation. An oversight in one series doesn't excuse the continued oversight of it's sequel. (for any series, not just Dragonball.) But to accept it with one instance but not with another that's very similar is what's odd to me. Caulifla is a combat genius then. That must have come from somewhere. She is a Saiyan. It's not hard to figure out.

The arc should have used an episode or 2 to demonstrate this if they really wanted to sell that point, but if an explanation is all you're looking for then you got one.
BlueBasilisk wrote: Her official profile does say she has a "genius battle sense" and Cabba likewise calls her a genius for picking up Super Saiyan as quickly as she did. I don't know if that's quite the same as what Goku does but I wouldn't be surprised if it is.

I'm not bothered by the U6 Saiyans picking up Super Saiyan as easily as they did or being as strong as they are. Rather, I find it ridiculous that the U7 Saiyans (the ones outside of Goku and Vegeta's families) were as weak as they were considering all the absurd power boosts the surviving ones got. They got hit by power creep hard.
Oh, well then I stand wildly corrected. I guess she is a Combat genius. But yeah it's really funny to look back at the U7 saiyans and how shafted they got in comparison not only to U6 Saiyans but a lot of U7 ones as well.
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Re: Why are people complaining about Universe 6 Saiyans??

Post by Cipher » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:10 pm

I like Caulifla and Kale quite a bit. Caulifla already has quite a bit of personality, after only really three appearances, and Kale is a completely ridiculous Broli homage that I have zero problems with (and I'm in the camp that believes, yes, she'll have to get "her own personality" by virtue of appearing more in the future, but the complete lean-in to the Broli elements she's obviously designed to riff on was for the best in an initial appearance).

Cabba, as boring as ever, is actually a little bit more interesting playing the straight man to these two as well.

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Re: why are people complaining about universum 6 saiyans??

Post by Zagacious » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:21 pm

Boo Machine wrote:Someone in the episode 91-93 stated she was a combat genius. I think that was Cabba. Only thing we have to go by, that is why people are complaining though. The lack of explanation. A lack of explanation in the past is not an acceptable reason for most people.

I can understand not liking little explanation. An oversight in one series doesn't excuse the continued oversight of it's sequel. (for any series, not just Dragonball.) But to accept it with one instance but not with another that's very similar is what's odd to me. Caulifla is a combat genius then. That must have come from somewhere. She is a Saiyan. It's not hard to figure out.

The arc should have used an episode or 2 to demonstrate this if they really wanted to sell that point, but if an explanation is all you're looking for then you got one.
I will say it again as I've said many times, being a combat genius is not an actual explanation, any hero or villain we've come across can be described as a combat genius, this late in the series it doesn't really mean anything at all. I was expecting proper build up in lieu of an explanation, but we got neither. Hopefully they are just doing it to rush forward the arc to the tournament after wasting so much time, but that's being optimistic and we have no way of knowing that.

I do like these characters, or at least their potential,if I didn't like them I wouldn't be so annoyed with how they are treating their transformations.
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Re: Why are people complaining about Universe 6 Saiyans??

Post by Jigurashi » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:22 pm

Cauli getting SSJ2 the way she did was horribly executed. Cabba is extremely bland and boring for me, and neither Cauli or Kale are all that interesting at the moment. They're all really lame imo. However, I feel like Kale and Cauli have potential to be better characters in the future.

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Re: why are people complaining about universum 6 saiyans??

Post by Asura » Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:10 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:
Asura wrote: And you're right, it is nostalgia. Nostalgia for some sensible and satisfying writing regarding transformations that is, which Super has yet to receive.
It's nostalgia mixed with hypocrisy when Goten/kid Trunks had no valid reasons to became SSJ and you conveniently leave that out.
This argument of "Well what about Goten and Trunks!?" is simply a non-argument. Every single time someone complains about the transformations in Super, it's always somehow assumed that they also think Goten & Trunks' transformations were perfectly okay too. Except I never said that, and almost anyone else making this argument has probably never said that either.

You're arguing against a position no one is taking. If you have a problem with how Goten & Trunks achieved super saiyan, you should have a problem with how Caulifla obtained SSJ2 too. If not, then I'll borrow a word that you used - hypocrisy.

Ironically enough though Goten & Trunk's transformations were better than Caulifla's SSJ2 because at least for Goten & Trunks' transformations, Gohan/Vegeta reacted to them and commented on them. Caulifla got nothing. Her transformation was played as if it was something we'd all seen her do before, and something the other characters (Well I guess just Cabba) had already seen before too. No biggie, just magically obtaining Super Saiyan forms out of nowhere for no reason and played as if it's something completely natural and normal. Like I said I was fine with her SSJ transformation, but this SSJ2 transformation was simply abysmal. I'm not even against giving her SSJ2, just the way in which it was handled was awful and nonsensical.

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Re: why are people complaining about universum 6 saiyans??

Post by FortuneSSJ » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:18 am

Asura wrote:
Ironically enough though Goten & Trunk's transformations were better than Caulifla's SSJ2 because at least for Goten & Trunks' transformations, Gohan/Vegeta reacted to them and commented on them. Caulifla got nothing. Her transformation was played as if it was something we'd all seen her do before, and something the other characters (Well I guess just Cabba) had already seen before too.
Of course they didn't comment anything, nor Caulifla or Cabba know about SSJ2. And it's not like she looks that different when compared to Kale's transformation, SSJ3, or even get a new color like SSB/SSRose.

Goten/kid Trunks SSJ transformations will never be better than Cabba's/Caulifla's/Kale's transformations, because those three are from a different Universe where the Saiyans are confirmed to have evolved different and we don't know nothing about them, which gives Toriyama/Toei room to do whatever they want with them.
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