This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by Asura » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:53 pm

Zagacious wrote:
Asura wrote:
Zagacious wrote:84-89 just feel like a waste, something people would probably skip entirely watching the second time around
Geez, you make it sound like they're the worst episodes ever that people must skip.

This arc so far has gotten a lot more praise from people than any before it, I highly doubt any of these episodes are so bad they're worth skipping, even during a second watch.
And I gave reasoning that you left out. Honestly what did we get out of that span of episodes aside from the decent 17 episode? As I mentioned the quality went up drastically by episode 90, so it's not really an issue any more, but I don't see any reason to watch them a second time, nothing new was introduced about said characters they chose to spend entire episodes on pre-90.
Asura wrote:So if Super's pacing is too slow for you, just exactly how fast do you want things to be? Should the BoG arc be 7 episodes instead of 14? Should the Universal Survival arc also be 20 episodes like FT was? How would you even cram an entire universal tournament with tons of new characters in to 20 episodes?

Taking it slow and steady only further helps flesh the story and characters out. There's no benefit to be found in rushing and cramming everything into as little episodes as humanly possible..
When someone says the pacing is too slow, they are not talking about specific episode count. The episode span I posted is doing the extreme opposite of what you said, cramming in as little content as possible into an episode, which is far worse than an episode having too much content to fully grasp in one watching. It shouldn't be the norm to finish an episode and feel 'that's it?', maybe a few episodes here and there, but when it starts to feel that way every time it can cause people to lose interest, as well as greatly affecting the anticipation for the tournament.
Again, hype and praise for Super is as high as it's ever been. Them changing their formula to have the pacing slow down, new filter, better art, better animation, etc. is not leading to people being less interested in the show, but rather the complete opposite.

Kanzenshuu is honestly the only place where I've heard people voice their complaints about the pacing being too slow. Everywhere else I look, people are very excited to see more world-building, new characters, seeing the recruitment episodes, etc.

As someone else pointed out, it seems like one of the big complaints about Super before this arc aired was that the pacing was too fast. Now that it's finally slowed down to where things can actually be built up and not rushed through in as little episodes as possible, people here start complaining that it's going too slow. Aside from wanting instant gratification I just don't see how someone can justify wanting the pacing to be faster. It's not like we're getting 6 months of Copy Vegeta-arc tier episodes here. Every single episode has been at least decent/good aside from perhaps the 17 Poacher one and Roshi/Tien, and they help to establish mood, setting, world-building, new characters, etc.

Super has had an extremely bumpy ride up until this point and I think even TOEI has realized that which is why they've made all these changes. Why anyone would want to go back on the bumpy road is beyond me. I mean, you've all seen Dragon Ball Z before haven't you? The anime series that's almost 300 episodes? Where 5 minutes of fighting translates into like 20 episodes? And now we're complaining about arcs that are around 13 episodes being too slow on pacing? How on earth did you guys even survive watching Z?

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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by cheddarsword » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:12 pm

King Kai says:

"Dragon ball was good
Z was great
Super is decent to good
Gt sucks
Fuck off
Shut up Bojack"

...I'm gonna keep using this until it becomes a meme.

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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by Marlowe89 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:18 pm

Asura wrote:So if Super's pacing is too slow for you, just exactly how fast do you want things to be? Should the BoG arc be 7 episodes instead of 14? Should the Universal Survival arc also be 20 episodes like FT was? How would you even cram an entire universal tournament with tons of new characters in to 20 episodes?
The episode count is fine, I'm referring exclusively to instances where it felt like entire episodes aired with little to no progression since the previous week. Obviously mileage varies, and I'm not saying this was a universal issue that spanned entire arcs, but there were definitely times where it felt like the writers were padding things out purely for the sake of adding length to the story arc. Too many episode plots could have been condensed or just reintegrated into other episodes outright.

I don't think the pacing is terrible per se, but I do think it could use some work.

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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by Asura » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:51 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
Asura wrote:So if Super's pacing is too slow for you, just exactly how fast do you want things to be? Should the BoG arc be 7 episodes instead of 14? Should the Universal Survival arc also be 20 episodes like FT was? How would you even cram an entire universal tournament with tons of new characters in to 20 episodes?
The episode count is fine, I'm referring exclusively to instances where it felt like entire episodes aired with little to no progression since the previous week. Obviously mileage varies, and I'm not saying this was a universal issue that spanned entire arcs, but there were definitely times where it felt like the writers were padding things out purely for the sake of adding length to the story arc. Too many episode plots could have been condensed or just reintegrated into other episodes outright.

I don't think the pacing is terrible per se, but I do think it could use some work.
But getting rid of these episodes that you call padding or where little to no progression happens would in effect reduce the episode count (which is something Zagacious brought up as well). In an arc like U6 where there are only 13 episodes, cutting things out of episodes and getting rid of the "padding" as you call it would mean there would be less episodes. So lets say instead of 13 episodes we're reduced to 10. That's an entire arc reduced to 10 episodes. Just how much do you think you can actually fit in to 10 episodes and still have it be engaging and fleshed out?

Even with 13 episodes the U6 arc went by way too fast without fleshing out any of the U6 characters. We're only just now getting some actual characterization and story for characters like Cabba and Frost. Hit too, although that was more around episode 72 or so.

The only padding or filler episodes I can see just being a hassle and easily skippable are the ones inbetween arcs. But that's kind of their purpose, to pad out the show until the next arc comes along.

People want less padding but the arcs are already so damn short as is even compared to Kai, that I question what kind of quality people want from this show.

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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:02 pm

Its not filler, but I agree with the sentiment. This is easily the most boring story in Dragon Ball for me. I have put the show on hold and am not going to bother until the tournament gets good or something.

From a pacing and structuring standpoint it is a total disaster and while there's hope that the climax will be good cause most likely good staff is working on it, a huge portion of this arc just bored me to death. Some highlights like #86 and #91 aside.

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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by precita » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:07 pm

It's pretty obvious some people just prefer characters fighting in every episode rather than seeing proper buildup. By that logic did you guys skip all the Saiyan saga filler episodes, all the episodes Goku was training on his ship to Namek, all the Cell saga training episodes in the time chamber, everything regarding Trunks/Goten practicing fusion, etc?

I also find it bizarre people say the episodes where Gohan regained his ultimate transformation was "unimportant." If that episode never happened people would be confused why Gohan was suddenly so strong again without any explanation.

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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:24 pm

precita wrote:It's pretty obvious some people just prefer characters fighting in every episode rather than seeing proper buildup.
That's enormously off-base, and I find it hard to believe that you actually think this because there literally is fighting almost every single episode! I think that alone kinda rules out your hypothesis.
precita wrote:By that logic did you guys skip all the Saiyan saga filler episodes, all the episodes Goku was training on his ship to Namek, all the Cell saga training episodes in the time chamber, everything regarding Trunks/Goten practicing fusion, etc?
Everything you just mentioned was actually relevant to what came after. We didn't know Gohan, and seeing him survive and adventure served as a great entry point for those who might not invest with him in a weekly serialization. Goku's ship training showed us fun mini-stories in which Goku has to solve a problem, and ultimately becomes stronger on the way to Namek. Since we know he has to improve a lot in a short amount of time, this works very well as filler. Goten and Trunks... well, Gotenks was kinda a huge Boo Arc gag. You can't have the Gotenks gag without the Gotenks gag.

In comparison to those examples, how useful have these stretch of episodes been? Nada. You could argue that #17's reintroduction and Gohan's retraining was necessary, and I would. Same for the tidbits we're getting with the other universes, though with the exception of Kale's transformation, it's to a marginally lesser extent. What about the other 8-ish episodes' worth of material? Let's round that down to 40% of the episodes that are totally irrelevant. Don't get me wrong, some of them are fine on their own, like the Kuririn episode, but they don't add anything substantial. You can only go so far relying on that before your premise begins to stale.
precita wrote:I also find it bizarre people say the episodes where Gohan regained his ultimate transformation was "unimportant." If that episode never happened people would be confused why Gohan was suddenly so strong again without any explanation.
I haven't seen anyone argue against the importance of that specific episode, please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by precita » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:34 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Everything you just mentioned was actually relevant to what came after. We didn't know Gohan, and seeing him survive and adventure served as a great entry point for those who might not invest with him in a weekly serialization. Goku's ship training showed us fun mini-stories in which Goku has to solve a problem, and ultimately becomes stronger on the way to Namek. Since we know he has to improve a lot in a short amount of time, this works very well as filler. Goten and Trunks... well, Gotenks was kinda a huge Boo Arc gag. You can't have the Gotenks gag without the Gotenks gag.
Out of literally all the episodes they made the only completely skippable episodes is the second 17 ep with the poachers, and the Roshi/Tenshihan episode. The first Krillin episode was the first time Goku went to recruit allies and showed why it needed to be done. The Boo episode also showed us other universes for the first time, it wasn't just Buu fighting Goku although admittedly now that we know he isn't competing it makes that episode in retrospect kinda pointless. Then we got 17's episodes, the first of which is important. Then two Gohan episodes in a row, both important as hell. Then after that we got what...eps leading to Buu falling asleep, showing us the U6 Saiyans for the first time, and now the recruitment of Freeza.

As said, I also like seeing the small bits of all the other universe gathering fighters. That isn't pointless either, and getting to see how the other universes prepare is nice too.

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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:29 am

Asura wrote:But getting rid of these episodes that you call padding or where little to no progression happens would in effect reduce the episode count (which is something Zagacious brought up as well).
Okay. And?

I still don't see how your (incredibly arbitrary) point about episode counts has anything to do with the overall sentiment that many episodes just aren't that substantial. An arc can be well paced with only 8 episodes and it can also be well paced with as many as 43 -- pacing is a narrative element, not a length-based one.
People want less padding but the arcs are already so damn short as is even compared to Kai, that I question what kind of quality people want from this show.
There's nothing to question, people just want less padding. The Future Trunks arc was filled with it. What's so difficult to comprehend here? Why does it even matter if the arcs are shorter than Kai's?

You're clearly confusing two completely different concepts.

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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by Asura » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:15 am

Marlowe89 wrote:An arc can be well paced with only 8 episodes and it can also be well paced with as many as 43 -- pacing is a narrative element, not a length-based one.
But that's not true at all. If you don't have as many episodes, that means you have to pace your story faster to fit within that many episodes. Instead of getting 400 minutes worth of screen time that you can put your plot in, you have 100 minutes. Things would have to be cut from those 400 minutes to fit into the 100 minutes instead. Thus, the pacing of the overall narrative would have to go faster as well.

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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by Zagacious » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:26 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
precita wrote:It's pretty obvious some people just prefer characters fighting in every episode rather than seeing proper buildup.
That's enormously off-base, and I find it hard to believe that you actually think this because there literally is fighting almost every single episode! I think that alone kinda rules out your hypothesis.
precita wrote:By that logic did you guys skip all the Saiyan saga filler episodes, all the episodes Goku was training on his ship to Namek, all the Cell saga training episodes in the time chamber, everything regarding Trunks/Goten practicing fusion, etc?
Funny how I stated plenty of reasons how the padding was unnecessary and how little it added to the story, and neither Asura or precita actually commented on anything I said, and we hear the same old same old "You just hate it because it's not 100% fighting" ... the reading comprehension is not strong here. Either that or they know there is no counter argument and just keep repeating the same old bs that hardly anyone ever said, but felt it was necessary to quote me and then not actually reply to a single one of my points, and instead make up some argument that they can counter.. one that I and probably no one here ever said.

I already said it's not the episode count that matters, but the pacing of individual episodes. The pacing and overall content of episodes 83-89ish are drastically different than the recent ones 91-94.
Asura wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:The episode count is fine, I'm referring exclusively to instances where it felt like entire episodes aired with little to no progression since the previous week. Obviously mileage varies, and I'm not saying this was a universal issue that spanned entire arcs, but there were definitely times where it felt like the writers were padding things out purely for the sake of adding length to the story arc. Too many episode plots could have been condensed or just reintegrated into other episodes outright.
I don't think the pacing is terrible per se, but I do think it could use some work.
But getting rid of these episodes that you call padding or where little to no progression happens would in effect reduce the episode count (which is something Zagacious brought up as well). In an arc like U6 where there are only 13 episodes, cutting things out of episodes and getting rid of the "padding" as you call it would mean there would be less episodes. So lets say instead of 13 episodes we're reduced to 10. That's an entire arc reduced to 10 episodes. Just how much do you think you can actually fit in to 10 episodes and still have it be engaging and fleshed out?
No one is talking about erasing entire episodes or the number of episodes. I don't really see how I can make it any clearer. The solution isn't to erase episodes entirely or remove content, but to have the episodes actually have substantial content, so that adding excessive filler/padding where nothing happens is not necessary. I already stated how little that episode span actually added to the series, especially in comparison to the more recent ones 91-94 and the only reply is "But they were great episodes, everyone loves them!" :yawn:
There was nothing in those episodes that needed to be removed, but there are definitely things that need to be added. The only defense to some of these episodes is "but that one thing happened!" yeah one significant event in an entire episode, that's the problem.

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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:26 am

I can understand why some people would have a problem with it, but I've personally been enjoying the build up to this tournament, it definitely feels like Dragon Ball Z back in the day. Granted its literally just now I've started to feel the drag. Hopefully the animation will be on the level of episode 66, if not greater. If they nail that aspect and have great fight choreography the wait will be worth it. We'll just have to wait and see.
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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:27 am

Asura wrote:But that's not true at all. If you don't have as many episodes, that means you have to pace your story faster to fit within that many episodes. Instead of getting 400 minutes worth of screen time that you can put your plot in, you have 100 minutes. Things would have to be cut from those 400 minutes to fit into the 100 minutes instead. Thus, the pacing of the overall narrative would have to go faster as well.
You're completely missing the point.

Why do you keep throwing up these arbitrary numbers as if they're some kind of standard for script length? If there's only 8 episodes worth of story content, anything more than 8 episodes would feel like padding if it doesn't add anything substantial to the narrative. Likewise, 400 minutes of screentime would be rushed if it was crammed into 100 minutes but it could also be very poorly paced if it's extended to something like 600 minutes.

Nobody would argue that all feature length films by default are "rushed" in pacing because they're 100 to 120 minutes long, and the same applies to story arcs which are dependent on the amount of story content available. The example even applies to Super specifically -- the BoG arc was being adapted from a movie that was only about an hour and 45 minutes long, so the result was tons of padding spread out over a runtime of 14 episodes.

Zagacious summed it up pretty well:
Zagacious wrote: No one is talking about erasing entire episodes or the number of episodes. I don't really see how I can make it any clearer. The solution isn't to erase episodes entirely or remove content, but to have the episodes actually have substantial content, so that adding excessive filler/padding where nothing happens is not necessary. I already stated how little that episode span actually added to the series, especially in comparison to the more recent ones 91-94 and the only reply is "But they were great episodes, everyone loves them!" :yawn:
There was nothing in those episodes that needed to be removed, but there are definitely things that need to be added. The only defense to some of these episodes is "but that one thing happened!" yeah one significant event in an entire episode, that's the problem.

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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:54 am

Well... it was starting to get slow for me up until Freeza returned. That whole last scene in the latest episode was fantastic.

I feel like if we watched this arc like how a lot of us watched the previous series (by that I mean not watching an episode once a week but rather having the luxury of binging the show) then we wouldn't be complaining about these recruitment/leading up to tournament episodes.

There is a lot to enjoy here though. The Zen Exhibition match was great. Goku recruiting Krillin, 18, 17 and Freeza were all really good episodes (minus the alien poacher stuff). Pretty much all the stuff that takes place in other universes has been interesting to me. That fight with Goku and Tien vs Gohan and Piccolo was fantastic.

To be honest, what was slowing it all down for me was that compared to the rest of Super, this is a really long arc so far. There's a lot going on. There's a lot to explain and take in, and I feel that because of all this the viewer does reach a point where they think "Alright, this is good and all... but can the actual tournament that the opening and all the promo material was hyping up just start already?"

Again, if I was binging all this, the arc wouldn't be feeling like it's dragging at times. There's a lot to enjoy here, but that's the thing... there's a lot of it and none of it is the tournament itself.

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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:17 am

I can understand the angle of which the OP is coming from. But the only episodes that have really felt unnecessarily padded out are Episode 87 and 89. And even with the case of Episode 89, it led to actual character development with Roshi getting over his perverted nature so he can focus in battle during the tournament. Every other episode has felt necessary in some way. Whether it's building up a character in the main cast in preparation for the tournament, exploring the other universes or subplots which tie into the nature of the upcoming tournament. The current subplot of the Hakaishin of Universe 4 looking to fuck over Universe 7 is really more intriguing that I initially gave it credit for. It really emphasizes just how desperate the other universe are to survive that they are sending spies over to other universes to get dirt and information in the hopes of crippling the chances of other universes even taking part in the tournament and automatically increasing their own universe's chances winning the tournament before it even begins. I love that kind of pragmatic thinking. And the inclusion of Universe 4 with that plot point feels surprisingly natural and well intertwined with overreaching narrative, even if does feel like padding before the tournament begins. Becuase given the extreme circumstances and stakes of the Tournament Of Power, I can understand the motive of Universe 4. They are doing this to increase their chances of survival. It's every universe for themselves.

The pacing overall has been fine so far for this arc.

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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by LowRyder2005 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:24 pm

cheddarsword wrote:King Kai says:

"Dragon ball was good
Z was great
Super is decent to good
Gt sucks
Fuck off
Shut up Bojack"

...I'm gonna keep using this until it becomes a meme.
I feel like the original Dragon Ball - which I cannot help but find almost criminally underrated, at least by the U.S. audience - shines even more than usual in comparison to Super.

(Not putting my money on Z being unquestionably more well-executed than its preceeding iteration either).
The episode count is fine, I'm referring exclusively to instances where it felt like entire episodes aired with little to no progression since the previous week.
I would almost dare extend this specific critique to Dragon Ball Super operation as a whole. In general terms, most of what you see in Super gives the same vibe of the producers smirking to theirs fans while filling up screen time for the sake of filling up the screen time. Definitely not something exuding a real artistic direction (wherever that direction may lead) or, like you yourself put it, a sense of progression. It is a characteristic I would intrinsically trace back to Super's indirectly admitted nature of clever and "broadly appealing" marketing tool, with the accent put on the younger demographic.

At some point in any given fictional series, narrative progression will get rid of some of the more familiar elements. With Super, though, it seems like they have to keep everything recognizable at the expense of trying something really new (or make the series evolve). If we had to mention the Dragon Ball manga/anime, it made a decent amount of bold narrative moves that came out organically (Goku growing up into a young adult, for instance, was welcomed with doubt and fear on the editor's part; and yet Toriyama pressed for it to happen because he felt like the story was heading that way) and gave the sense of progression Super lacks.

Although it rubbed the Japanese audience the wrong way, back in the day, I still feel like Super would've been much more palatable to the older fans if Goku had the mentor role he was supposed to take at the end of the Buu saga. In short, used less extensively in favor of the younger characters, basically building up for every time he fought or had to step in. Instead, everything - Goku's mentality included - basically devolved and got the flanderization treatment; Goku is the face the runs the place and needs to be represented-marketed accordingly in the series, the palette-swap transformations always stronger, the stakes always higher, and yet the sense of drama less and less present.

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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by Asura » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:29 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
Asura wrote:But that's not true at all. If you don't have as many episodes, that means you have to pace your story faster to fit within that many episodes. Instead of getting 400 minutes worth of screen time that you can put your plot in, you have 100 minutes. Things would have to be cut from those 400 minutes to fit into the 100 minutes instead. Thus, the pacing of the overall narrative would have to go faster as well.
You're completely missing the point.

Why do you keep throwing up these arbitrary numbers as if they're some kind of standard for script length? If there's only 8 episodes worth of story content, anything more than 8 episodes would feel like padding if it doesn't add anything substantial to the narrative. Likewise, 400 minutes of screentime would be rushed if it was crammed into 100 minutes but it could also be very poorly paced if it's extended to something like 600 minutes.

Nobody would argue that all feature length films by default are "rushed" in pacing because they're 100 to 120 minutes long, and the same applies to story arcs which are dependent on the amount of story content available. The example even applies to Super specifically -- the BoG arc was being adapted from a movie that was only about an hour and 45 minutes long, so the result was tons of padding spread out over a runtime of 14 episodes.

Zagacious summed it up pretty well:
Zagacious wrote: No one is talking about erasing entire episodes or the number of episodes. I don't really see how I can make it any clearer. The solution isn't to erase episodes entirely or remove content, but to have the episodes actually have substantial content, so that adding excessive filler/padding where nothing happens is not necessary. I already stated how little that episode span actually added to the series, especially in comparison to the more recent ones 91-94 and the only reply is "But they were great episodes, everyone loves them!" :yawn:
There was nothing in those episodes that needed to be removed, but there are definitely things that need to be added. The only defense to some of these episodes is "but that one thing happened!" yeah one significant event in an entire episode, that's the problem.
If there's only 8 episodes worth of story content, then anything over 8 episodes would be padding, I agree. But what if there's more? The argument that you guys are trying to imply is that you seem to know exactly how much story content there is without this arc even coming close to being finished. Nothing so far has been padding, it's all been essential to telling the story and fleshing out the characters. Wanting to shrink this, which you think is padding, would ultimately lead to less episodes, less fleshing out of the characters and story (which you call padding, but I call writing essentials) and goes exactly back to my point that if you try to cram a story worth 400 minutes into 100 minutes it would be rushed. That's essentially what you guys want to do with this arc. Cut the characterization, cut the world building, cut the build-up, just jump straight into the tournament and forget about things which actually make a story good.

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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by Zagacious » Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:45 pm

Asura wrote:If there's only 8 episodes worth of story content, then anything over 8 episodes would be padding, I agree. But what if there's more? The argument that you guys are trying to imply is that you seem to know exactly how much story content there is without this arc even coming close to being finished. Nothing so far has been padding, it's all been essential to telling the story and fleshing out the characters. Wanting to shrink this, which you think is padding, would ultimately lead to less episodes, less fleshing out of the characters and story (which you call padding, but I call writing essentials) and goes exactly back to my point that if you try to cram a story worth 400 minutes into 100 minutes it would be rushed. That's essentially what you guys want to do with this arc. Cut the characterization, cut the world building, cut the build-up, just jump straight into the tournament and forget about things which actually make a story good.
You're trying to argue that these episodes were jammed pack with content and if they added any more content it would feel rushed. That is almost entirely objectively false. The only part that is subjective is if the content they included was actually relevant or not, but there's no denying there were large moments where absolutely nothing happened. Especially in comparison to 91-94 where the episodes are literally jam packed with content and it doesn't feel rushed at all.

You can see how little is actually happening between these episodes if you make a list of things that actually happened during that episode. Record the amount of time during the episode where literally nothing happened, I can tell you it takes up a huge majority of the episodes 81-89, and especially guilty of doing this during the Black Goku arc. When you can only count one significant event in an episode, and you can skip the rest of the episode without missing anything, then it starts to become painfully obvious they padded it out intentionally just to make the story longer, and not for the purposes of making the story better, just longer.

Part of this may also be to different writers, I find it extremely hard to believe the people who wrote 91-94 are working together with the people who wrote the previous recruitment episodes. It's like a totally different series. Either that or they're just forcing them to pad them out, which is going to automatically lower the quality.

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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by Asura » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:27 pm

Zagacious wrote:
Asura wrote:If there's only 8 episodes worth of story content, then anything over 8 episodes would be padding, I agree. But what if there's more? The argument that you guys are trying to imply is that you seem to know exactly how much story content there is without this arc even coming close to being finished. Nothing so far has been padding, it's all been essential to telling the story and fleshing out the characters. Wanting to shrink this, which you think is padding, would ultimately lead to less episodes, less fleshing out of the characters and story (which you call padding, but I call writing essentials) and goes exactly back to my point that if you try to cram a story worth 400 minutes into 100 minutes it would be rushed. That's essentially what you guys want to do with this arc. Cut the characterization, cut the world building, cut the build-up, just jump straight into the tournament and forget about things which actually make a story good.
You're trying to argue that these episodes were jammed pack with content and if they added any more content it would feel rushed. That is almost entirely objectively false. The only part that is subjective is if the content they included was actually relevant or not, but there's no denying there were large moments where absolutely nothing happened. Especially in comparison to 91-94 where the episodes are literally jam packed with content and it doesn't feel rushed at all.

You can see how little is actually happening between these episodes if you make a list of things that actually happened during that episode. Record the amount of time during the episode where literally nothing happened, I can tell you it takes up a huge majority of the episodes 81-89, and especially guilty of doing this during the Black Goku arc. When you can only count one significant event in an episode, and you can skip the rest of the episode without missing anything, then it starts to become painfully obvious they padded it out intentionally just to make the story longer, and not for the purposes of making the story better, just longer.

Part of this may also be to different writers, I find it extremely hard to believe the people who wrote 91-94 are working together with the people who wrote the previous recruitment episodes. It's like a totally different series. Either that or they're just forcing them to pad them out, which is going to automatically lower the quality.
So you're saying you're objectively right and I'm objectively wrong, which is pretty ballsy of you. Also, if they were to remove things, not add them, it would feel rushed. You might think large amounts of nothing happened in episodes 81-89, but it's pretty easy to see why these episodes were important and what they accomplished in regards to the characters and expanding the lore. It goes back to my point once more that if you cut these things out the pacing goes faster, and the episode count diminishes. But wanting to cut these things out is like wanting to take the filling out of a pie. All you're left with is a hollow crust. And while some people want to just eat the unbaked crust because they're hungry (read: impatient), I want that pie to be stuffed to the brim with all the things that'll make it good, even if it means it'll be in the oven for longer.

The only episodes of this arc that I felt was padding that really didn't need to happen was the 17 vs Poachers episode and the Roshi/Tien one. For the 17 one, you have a boring storyline, nameless villain, and they could have shown 17 and Goku getting along in a much more interesting way than that. For the Roshi/Tien one, it wasn't so much that it didn't need to happen, but that it happened in the wrong way. It didn't help to expand at all on either Roshi or Tien's character. Yurin or whatever was a horrible villain, and overall the episode was mostly a mess. There still should have been a Roshi/Tien episode though, just not like that. Every other episode has served its purpose though. It's not padding if it contributes to the overall strength of the arc in helping to improve it. Characterization and world building aren't things we need to wait for the arc to finish for to decide whether they were good or not. It's always good to have these things. I don't want to rush into the tournament just so we can be introduced to a bunch of random mooks with no backstory or anything. Similarly, I don't want all these secondary characters like Krillin and 18 to show up to the tournament without the show first showing why they deserve to be important characters again. When it comes to good writing, things need to be fleshed out.

Zamasu was a boring villain because he wasn't very fleshed out, and people obviously preferred Black because he was more interesting. Also, the padding that was in the FT arc (because there was padding, like you said. There were episodes in which really nothing happened that didn't add to anyone's character, the overall plot, or anything else) could have been better utilized. It didn't feel like it made the arc drag to me, but I just wish it was better utilized. The pacing of the arc still felt rushed though even with that, because the padding didn't help to actually improve the characters or the plot, so the actual plot still felt rushed and needing to be fleshed out.

I think what we're really arguing about here is whether or not we consider this arc to be mostly padding. I say they're important and serve a purpose, you say they're meaningless and can be skipped. I disagree, as the things they touched on in this episode were great and help to build the overall narrative. If we just skimmed through these aspects like the majority of Super has been doing so far, then the lazy writing would only continue, and these arcs brimming with potential would just continue to only be that, potential.

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Luke Groundwalker
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Re: This is seriously getting ridiculous..

Post by Luke Groundwalker » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:36 pm

I disagree. There's nothing fillery whatsoever about the current arc. There's some padding here-and-there, but everything that has been happening in this recruitment arc has been important to the story in some capacity. Mostly, character development.

This is actually pretty much the first time Dragonball has done proper character development, and it's nice. We didn't even really get that with all the padding Z had.

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