Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Marlowe89
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:30 pm

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:27 pm

Bullza wrote:Super Saiyan 4 was a stupid looking form that made no sense at all.

Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue have simplistic designs with slight changes just as was the case with pretty much all the other forms.

Super Saiyan was just his hair standing up and turning a different colour. In Vegeta's case his Super Saiyan form was just a recolour. Ascended Super Saiyan was practically the same with slightly bigger muscles. Super Saiyan 2 was practically the same except with slightly spikier hair.

There was a bigger change in appearance with Super Saiyan God than there was with some of these other forms.
That's an excellent way of looking at it and pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter completely.

Super Saiyan 4 is an extremely goofy-looking form to me and didn't really do a very good job of exemplifying what I would expect from the Dragon Ball franchise. In particular, I think its (incredibly bizarre) design was trying too hard to branch out from the previous transformations without any satisfying pay-off and it didn't really make a lot of sense to boot. Even assuming that Goku could "gain control" over his Golden Oozaru form, why would he randomly become a caveman with magic pants?

Super Saiyan God on the other hand had a very eloquent explanation, background and design behind it. From the red hair to the more defined spikes and even Goku's entire body structure changing, you could argue that it actually brought more changes to Goku's appearance than some of the standard Super Saiyan forms, but without looking busy or overly convoluted. It's just a simple, elegant design, and while I personally prefer it over Super Saiyan Blue, the latter form also carried this trait which certainly gives it a nice aesthetic flow.

Of all the post-Z forms so far, my ranking would definitely be Super Saiyan God > Super Saiyan Blue/Rose >>>>> Super Saiyan 4.

User avatar
Boo Machine
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1928
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 7:44 pm
Location: On the Track to NoWhere

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by Boo Machine » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:46 pm

I think most of the hate comes from that people want every modern transformation to be this huge body changing transformation that makes the Character look radically different.

Personally I don't see why. I always felt there was charm in simplicity. SSJB maybe a recolor of SSJ but it still conveys what it needs to without being messy in it's design.

I feel like SSJ4 really spoiled some people.

SSJ is iconic, and it's just spikyer hair that's gold. SSJ2 is basically the same thing with lightning, but only sometimes. And that's a lot of peoples favorite form. SSJ3 doesn't have much more than that except longer hair and lack of Eye brows. And even that looks ridiculous. (SSJ 3 is my favorite form) Then you get to SSJ 4 and Goku gets a full body transformation and all of a sudden no transformation is good enough unless the character gets a full body modification. The new form must have chest hair, A tail, eye liner, a cape, tribal tattoos, horns, claws, and grow a 10 foot beard to match the 10 foot hair. All that makes sense for the villains, because most of the villains are monsters and aliens. So when they transform they're going to look like monsters and aliens.

I like SSJ 4. It's a cool as hell look. And as a (At the time) final transformation, it kicks ass. But with as many transformations as this series gives it's heros, I would find it obnoxious if every transformation had to have this drastically new design that gave the character a new look, even more so if they had to escalate those designs every time a new form came along. Even if it was good, you would eventually hit a point where it just looks messy.


So I appreciate the simpler designs. SSJ Blue. SSJ with a nice shade of blue and a cool looking aura. All it needs. Something simple is all I need in Dragonball or any other series for that matter.
SUBARASHII! - Goku Black

I am the Great Saiyaman! Defender of truth! Protector of the innocent! Upholder of justice! Doer of good!

To Infinity, then stop!

Anime are Cartoons.

User avatar
Low Tone G
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:34 am

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by Low Tone G » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:53 pm

I'm still not a fan of the actual designs of the God forms, but I can accept the auras with ease. SSJ4 is still the superior design in every way.
English is not my first language!
I'm still waiting for Dragon Ball in Super...

lancerman
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 412
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:36 pm

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by lancerman » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:29 pm

SSJ4 was horrible and it looked like the most generic fanboy design ever. Way too busy and trying too hard, doesn't even look like the characters.

User avatar
Bullza
Banned
Posts: 8621
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:48 am
Location: UK

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by Bullza » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:42 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:and it didn't really make a lot of sense to boot
It really doesn't. Why did turning into a Super Saiyan 4 give him pants he wasn't wearing before? Why does he have red fur when Oozaru are brown? Why did Gogeta​ and Vegeta have different colour fur? Why did Vegeta's hair turn from black to brown but Goku's didn't? Why did Gogeta have red hair?
without looking busy or overly convoluted. It's just a simple, elegant design
I've often thought that this is the root of people's problem with it. If you look at these fan made forms that they come out with like this well known "Super Saiyan 5"

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Amongst many other examples, they are usually always over designed. Like whatever the hell these are meant to be.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

So when something like Super Saiyan God came out and it was a simplistic design where it was mainly Base Goku with red hair and and aura. People think it's really underwhelming.
Boo Machine wrote:I think most of the hate comes from that people want every modern transformation to be this huge body changing transformation that makes the Character look radically different.
Which again also relates to what I was saying above because other series have transformations where they did change more considerably.

Naruto has forms that differ greater especially with his Tailed Beast modes. Luffy had that Gear 4 a while back and that looked completely different. Ichigo got a form before the end where he looked very different. There's others like it too.

People expect the same for Dragon Ball but it was never really like that. In the canon the biggest change was Super Saiyan 3 and even then that was just Super Saiyan Goku with Raditz' hair.

User avatar
Baggie_Saiyan
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10275
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:22 pm
Location: Atlantis.

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:42 pm

Right so, the "hate" here is myth, it is a case of haters being louder, SSGSS is literally plastered everywhere they wouldn't do that if everyone hated the form sooooo much and correct me if I am wrong but wasn't there soooo much hype over Vegetto Blue?

Also let's rubbish the myth that these designs are "lazy" while we are here. Right okay people wanted a recoloured SS4 and then crying because SSGod was "KK rip off" "recolour" is absolutely hilarious. :lol: SSGod isn't lazy or a recolour, as seen here:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

As you can see SSGod Goku is:
a) Skinnier than Base Goku
b) The clothes are lighter
c) The boots have now a white trim
d) The single hair strands have gone
e) The middle bang is now raised
f) The aura is completely different.
g) Eyes are different to base
h) This is subjective but it pops and makes Goku look gorgeous (in a purely non sexual or love kind of way)

Lazy recolour my ass. Hell it was probably harder coming up with this design then doing something wacky like SS3.

On to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan:

a) It is in the name of THE FORM! IT IS SUPPOSED TO LOOK AND F***ING RESEMBLE SUPER SAIYAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
b) The big one- Toriyama invented new outfits complete *new* for these forms (doesn't matter they reverted now I am talking about from when they were introduced) no other form (SS4 notcounting) has had this honour, it wasn't a simple colour change of the clothes this time, Toriyama went all out this time, complete new gi top to bottom.
c) On top that the aura is also different
d) The colour represent what the form does and is all about and is not just random.
e) Subjective- it looks so much more damn cooler than SS

Like SSGod this was far from "lazy" or oh just a "recolour" Toriyama went to a lot of effort here more so then any SS form he has ever done, again lazy my ass.

You can dislike these form yes you can but let us please stop with the misguided notion that these are somehow "lazy" or "just recolours" they are patently not.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2973
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:13 pm

I like the regular Super Saiyan God form. It was a very Toriyama design, with its simplicity and non-imposing appearance. Super Saipan Blue on the other hand, is pretty meh to me. It's not terrible, but it's basically just a pallete-swapped version of the regular Super Saipan form. There's not really anything special or distinctive about it. It probably doesn't help that Super has really been overusing the form in Goku's case.

User avatar
Lord Frieza
I Live Here
Posts: 3768
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:36 pm

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by Lord Frieza » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:41 pm

Love Super Saiyan God - Original because it subverted expectations and surpasses every one's over blown, over designed, rubbish fan ideas, like SS 5 to 10, with it's simplicity. The red color, aura and slimmer body look great and help make this become my favorite SS form on par with the original. I also love the somewhat supernatural powers the from hints at like Ki Cancellation, Regeneration and God Ki.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/ Super Saiyan Blue- Not the best idea but it works. The aura is great and ability to allow Goku to use the Kaio-ken again is pretty cool. Big flaws, without the aura its just "Super Saiyan with Blue hair dye" and it feels like a step down from SSG at times because the form dose not feel like a god form, i.e. there are none of the supernatural elements the original hinted at. Also the changes made between the RoF movie and Super really messed up how the form worked causing a lot of confusion.

Super Saiyan Rose - Works for what it is, a corrupted version of SSB. It works better then SSB because their is some of that good ol "subversion of expectations" plus Black has a number of unique God powers that help the form stand out. Also that aura is just awesome.

User avatar
Neo-Makaiōshin
I Live Here
Posts: 2037
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:31 pm
Location: Argentina
Contact:

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:02 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Right so, the "hate" here is myth, it is a case of haters being louder, SSGSS is literally plastered everywhere they wouldn't do that if everyone hated the form sooooo much and correct me if I am wrong but wasn't there soooo much hype over Vegetto Blue?

Also let's rubbish the myth that these designs are "lazy" while we are here. Right okay people wanted a recoloured SS4 and then crying because SSGod was "KK rip off" "recolour" is absolutely hilarious. :lol: SSGod isn't lazy or a recolour, as seen here:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

As you can see SSGod Goku is:
a) Skinnier than Base Goku
b) The clothes are lighter
c) The boots have now a white trim
d) The single hair strands have gone
e) The middle bang is now raised
f) The aura is completely different.
g) Eyes are different to base
h) This is subjective but it pops and makes Goku look gorgeous (in a purely non sexual or love kind of way)

Lazy recolour my ass. Hell it was probably harder coming up with this design then doing something wacky like SS3.

On to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan:

a) It is in the name of THE FORM! IT IS SUPPOSED TO LOOK AND F***ING RESEMBLE SUPER SAIYAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
b) The big one- Toriyama invented new outfits complete *new* for these forms (doesn't matter they reverted now I am talking about from when they were introduced) no other form (SS4 notcounting) has had this honour, it wasn't a simple colour change of the clothes this time, Toriyama went all out this time, complete new gi top to bottom.
c) On top that the aura is also different
d) The colour represent what the form does and is all about and is not just random.
e) Subjective- it looks so much more damn cooler than SS

Like SSGod this was far from "lazy" or oh just a "recolour" Toriyama went to a lot of effort here more so then any SS form he has ever done, again lazy my ass.

You can dislike these form yes you can but let us please stop with the misguided notion that these are somehow "lazy" or "just recolours" they are patently not.
I'm putting this quote on my signature.
"The Time of Birth has Come, I Am The Remedy of Eternity.”
“The Time of Crowning has Come, I Am The Begining of Eternity."
"The Time of Parting has Come, I Am Who Lets Go of The World"

User avatar
MaskedRider
Banned
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by MaskedRider » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:10 pm

I like Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue. At first I had the same opinion as most people, not liking it for being a recolor but when I thought about it more I liked them a lot for being less is more. I dig how youthful SSG makes its user and it seemingly flaring them up brightly and smitten with the pretty blue of SSB.

There was a perfect post that changed my perspective on the forms on /a/ talking about not only from a design standpoint why they are perfect but from a symbolic one as well going in with how SSG requires the help of others to achieve and SSB requires complete inner tranquility (I forgot what they said for Blue, I believe it was something along the lines of that). Wish I could find that post.

User avatar
TheMikado
I Live Here
Posts: 4886
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by TheMikado » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:51 pm

So I will add my two cents:

The SSG form is unbelievable atrocious, not just in design but in execution and lore. The SSG legend would be much newer than the SSJ legend and far more well known according to the lore. It would have to taken place after King Vegeta defeated the Tuffles so fairly recently and an event seen by many of the Saiyans so it couldn't be a big secret. The fact that Vegeta knows nothing about it and have never heard the legend despite being the Prince of Saiyans is preposterous. Even if you want to head canon it away as successor to the throne Vegeta should at least be aware of it and if I recall correctly even Frieza knew about it. So trying to retroactively add it feel like a genuine @$$pull. The form itself isn't so bad at all, it's the SSB and subsequent spin offs that are horrible as they are all literal recolors of the plain SSJ form. Access to this new level didn't produce any vastly differentiation in transformation rather it really is a recolor of the SSJ hair. Basically neither it's lore nor its subsequent uses or forms are explains in any real comprehensive way. To this day we are still arguing over how it works.

For those complaining about SSJ4, I don't know what to tell you... it's a clear reference to the original SSJ legend whichvshows a golden Oozaru. This Oozaru form being the precursor to SSJ4 and it gives detail on who one achieved each of these forms. It combines the two transformation branches of Oozuru and SSJ to create something new but which is built on existing lore, plausible, and something fans should have naturally speculated on. It's just plan well written into the lore established previously. It fits and further it earns its title as the ultimate form in the universe and implies it's the true SSJ form. This also makes sense why it would be feared throughout the universe as that form was the final transformation which SSJs displayed.

User avatar
Ziegander
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:55 pm

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by Ziegander » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:55 pm

Hey, guys, first post!

Anyway:
Lord Frieza wrote:Love Super Saiyan God - Original because it subverted expectations and surpasses every one's over blown, over designed, rubbish fan ideas, like SS 5 to 10, with it's simplicity. The red color, aura and slimmer body look great and help make this become my favorite SS form on par with the original. I also love the somewhat supernatural powers the from hints at like Ki Cancellation, Regeneration and God Ki.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/ Super Saiyan Blue- Not the best idea but it works. The aura is great and ability to allow Goku to use the Kaio-ken again is pretty cool. Big flaws, without the aura its just "Super Saiyan with Blue hair dye" and it feels like a step down from SSG at times because the form dose not feel like a god form, i.e. there are none of the supernatural elements the original hinted at. Also the changes made between the RoF movie and Super really messed up how the form worked causing a lot of confusion.

Super Saiyan Rose - Works for what it is, a corrupted version of SSB. It works better then SSB because their is some of that good ol "subversion of expectations" plus Black has a number of unique God powers that help the form stand out. Also that aura is just awesome.
Pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter, but I guess I missed something: can someone explain how SSB allows Goku to use Kaio-Ken "again?" Or even how it allows him to make better use of it, encouraging him to use it again whereas he hadn't in a very long time until attaining SSB? Because I thought it was cool that he was using it again, and I just assumed it was Toriyama nostalgia (something that seems to keep popping up in Super) that brought it back, but if there's an in-story, lore-reason for Goku using it with SSB I didn't realize.
I've begun a full-scale re-write of the Tournament of Power! Here's Ch. 1, here's Ch.
2
, and here's Ch.
3!

User avatar
Lord Frieza
I Live Here
Posts: 3768
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:36 pm

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by Lord Frieza » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:29 pm

TheMikado wrote:
For those complaining about SSJ4, I don't know what to tell you... it's a clear reference to the original SSJ legend whichvshows a golden Oozaru. This Oozaru form being the precursor to SSJ4 and it gives detail on who one achieved each of these forms. It combines the two transformation branches of Oozuru and SSJ to create something new but which is built on existing lore, plausible, and something fans should have naturally speculated on. It's just plan well written into the lore established previously. It fits and further it earns its title as the ultimate form in the universe and implies it's the true SSJ form. This also makes sense why it would be feared throughout the universe as that form was the final transformation which SSJs displayed.
To be a fair counter, because I like SS4. For people who love cannon, Golden Oozaru is not part of the SS legend, its anime only. There is no reference to it at all in the manga. I know, I know that word "cannon" but it matters to some so I might as well get it out of the way.

There is nothing in the lore about SS4, the anime scene shows a giant, golden shape. Thats all. To be fair it looks semi-saiyanish but its still a giant with an elongated muzzle.

Image
Image

SS4 is a pretty big far cry from that image. Also since the legend is near forgotten with none alive knowing what a SS even looks like before Goku, how dose Old Kai learn of this form?

I'm sorry but its not "well written into the lore" because literally nothing is said about it.

Plausible is an issue to. No matter which way you slice it SS4 is a natural transformation, just like all the other SS forms. Yet the form has some very unnatural aspects that are never explained in the story. Why dose Goku become an adult again? And a much more interesting question, how the bloody hell dose the form make people clothes appear and disappear like magic?

Those are some very real issues with the form that are never given a proper explanation in the story.


When it comes to how SSG looks, well your entitle to your opinion. As for the lore I'm afraid I dont see it the same way. Going by Super, which is the official backstory for the form for the ongoing series, SSG is a form that has been lost to time. The only record of it comes from the namekian book of legends, and since we know even less about the book then we do SSG that tells us nothing about the form's origin in time. The saiyan's of Vegeta don't know of it and despite what fans say, nor dose Frieza. While the line is linked to the movie, his statement was "Super Saiyan...could it be some kind of god". Frieza says nothing about a Super Saiyan God, he is speculation about SS and wither it is a god of the saiyan people, simply put his words are ambiguous enough to stop it being a plot hole.

All that Shenron said was that Super Saiyan God was a figure in saiyan mythology and since the saiyans history has now be exponentially lengthened since their origin now begins on Planet Salada and they later moved to Plant/Vegeta, the SSG could have originated long ago on Salada before its destruction.

This dose not make it any less of a retrospective ass pull, but Super has created a timeline were it can exist with creating a contradiction.

Edit:
Ziegander wrote:Hey, guys, first post!


Pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter, but I guess I missed something: can someone explain how SSB allows Goku to use Kaio-Ken "again?" Or even how it allows him to make better use of it, encouraging him to use it again whereas he hadn't in a very long time until attaining SSB? Because I thought it was cool that he was using it again, and I just assumed it was Toriyama nostalgia (something that seems to keep popping up in Super) that brought it back, but if there's an in-story, lore-reason for Goku using it with SSB I didn't realize.
Its to do with SSB's Ki Control and Whis's training. Basically the form grants the user a much higher degree of control over their power and when combined with Whis's teachings Goku can pull of the Kaio-Ken.

Kaio-Ken at its most basic, is a technique that allows the user to "force" their body to become stronger. This requires a very high degree of control with little room for error as mishandling the technique can result in user hurting themselves or even dying. This why Goku cannot use it as in his SS forms, with each level he loses control of his ki and that dose not mix well with the Kaio-Ken for obvious reasons. The only time he could was in the filler against Pikkon. When he did this he had masterd his SS form but could only hold the Super Kaio-Ken (which was likely only a x2) for just a moment. Goku in his base state can power up the form to x10 with no ill effects and to x20 if forced.

For the reason's I stated above, SSB Goku can not only use Kaio-Ken but also use it up to his natural tolerance for the technique (x10) for an period time. However even then, if he uses it for to long he risks some pretty bad side effects.

User avatar
TheMikado
I Live Here
Posts: 4886
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by TheMikado » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:58 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
For those complaining about SSJ4, I don't know what to tell you... it's a clear reference to the original SSJ legend whichvshows a golden Oozaru. This Oozaru form being the precursor to SSJ4 and it gives detail on who one achieved each of these forms. It combines the two transformation branches of Oozuru and SSJ to create something new but which is built on existing lore, plausible, and something fans should have naturally speculated on. It's just plan well written into the lore established previously. It fits and further it earns its title as the ultimate form in the universe and implies it's the true SSJ form. This also makes sense why it would be feared throughout the universe as that form was the final transformation which SSJs displayed.
To be a fair counter, because I like SS4. For people who love cannon, Golden Oozaru is not part of the SS legend, its anime only. There is no reference to it at all in the manga. I know, I know that word "cannon" but it matters to some so I might as well get it out of the way.

There is nothing in the lore about SS4, the anime scene shows a giant, golden shape. Thats all. To be fair it looks semi-saiyanish but its still a giant with an elongated muzzle.

Image
Image

SS4 is a pretty big far cry from that image. Also since the legend is near forgotten with none alive knowing what a SS even looks like before Goku, how dose Old Kai learn of this form?

I'm sorry but its not "well written into the lore" because literally nothing is said about it.

Plausible is an issue to. No matter which way you slice it SS4 is a natural transformation, just like all the other SS forms. Yet the form has some very unnatural aspects that are never explained in the story. Why dose Goku become an adult again? And a much more interesting question, how the bloody hell dose the form make people clothes appear and disappear like magic?

Those are some very real issues with the form that are never given a proper explanation in the story.


When it comes to how SSG looks, well your entitle to your opinion. As for the lore I'm afraid I dont see it the same way. Going by Super, which is the official backstory for the form for the ongoing series, SSG is a form that has been lost to time. The only record of it comes from the namekian book of legends, and since we know even less about the book then we do SSG that tells us nothing about the form's origin in time. The saiyan's of Vegeta don't know of it and despite what fans say, nor dose Frieza. While the line is linked to the movie, his statement was "Super Saiyan...could it be some kind of god". Frieza says nothing about a Super Saiyan God, he is speculation about SS and wither it is a god of the saiyan people, simply put his words are ambiguous enough to stop it being a plot hole.

All that Shenron said was that Super Saiyan God was a figure in saiyan mythology and since the saiyans history has now be exponentially lengthened since their origin now begins on Planet Salada and they later moved to Plant/Vegeta, the SSG could have originated long ago on Salada before its destruction.

This dose not make it any less of a retrospective ass pull, but Super has created a timeline were it can exist with creating a contradiction.
So I'll clarify the first part. The Golden Oozaru which is basically just a combination of SSJ and the Oozaru form is the aspect that fans would speculate on. The SSJ4 form is branch from that and merely the controlled form of the golden Oozaru. In that sense the golden Oozaru is the natural form not necessarily the controlled form which we know as SSJ4. While I do understand that Golden Oozaru doesn't appear in the manga, it's still a reference to something that was presented in the anime years prior to its debut. Meaning the creators and writers put clear thought and research into what was previously established. Again my focus is on the Golden Oozaru form as that is what fans have always wondered, what happens when a SSJ goes Oozuru? I'll admit the SSJ4 form proper doesn't make much sense design wise but I find aesthetically pleasing and Toriyama likes it so that's good enough for me.

The idea of the SSG form being lost to time while the SSJ is known even to Frieza given the time frame doesn't make much sense. Like I said, according to the timeline the original SSG story would have had to have happened during King Vegetas lifetime after he conquered the Tuffle planet. Possible even while Vegeta was alive. The idea that this massive of an even was "lost" to all the people who lived through it is rather hard to believe and sounds like the ramifications of the lore weren't very well thought out at all when it came to being compatible with the established lore and timeline.

Basically Toriyama forgot.

PeanutSaiyan
Banned
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:54 pm

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by PeanutSaiyan » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:07 pm

"Ssj god" is one of the worst retcons/transformations in history, and it's nonsensical execution isn't too far behind.

SsjBlue is, well, just lazy. At least with Z there was a logical progression (esp in the Cell arc) even if the aesthetic differences were subtle.

User avatar
Lord Frieza
I Live Here
Posts: 3768
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:36 pm

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by Lord Frieza » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:17 pm

TheMikado wrote:
So I'll clarify the first part. The Golden Oozaru which is basically just a combination of SSJ and the Oozaru form is the aspect that fans would speculate on. The SSJ4 form is branch from that and merely the controlled form of the golden Oozaru. In that sense the golden Oozaru is the natural form not necessarily the controlled form which we know as SSJ4. While I do understand that Golden Oozaru doesn't appear in the manga, it's still a reference to something that was presented in the anime years prior to its debut. Meaning the creators and writers put clear thought and research into what was previously established. Again my focus is on the Golden Oozaru form as that is what fans have always wondered, what happens when a SSJ goes Oozuru? I'll admit the SSJ4 form proper doesn't make much sense design wise but I find aesthetically pleasing and Toriyama likes it so that's good enough for me.
Got nothing to say against this, thats all fine.
TheMikado wrote: The idea of the SSG form being lost to time while the SSJ is known even to Frieza given the time frame doesn't make much sense. Like I said, according to the timeline the original SSG story would have had to have happened during King Vegetas lifetime after he conquered the Tuffle planet. Possible even while Vegeta was alive. The idea that this massive of an even was "lost" to all the people who lived through it is rather hard to believe and sounds like the ramifications of the lore weren't very well thought out at all when it came to being compatible with the established lore and timeline.

Basically Toriyama forgot.
Ok I think I need to clarify myself here. Let me start here

"According to the timeline the original SSG story would have had to have happened during King Vegetas lifetime after he conquered the Tuffle planet."

Ok this is from the movie BoG, and you are right it makes no sense. But heres were Super comes in. Super version of these events are different. When Beerus asks for Shenron to Summon the SSG, Shenron says he cannot. When asked why Shenron states "He is a deity who appears in saiyan mythology but he dose not exist in the present time". He then tells them about the Namkeian Book and how to become a SSG.

Now whats missing from that? Everything about the saiyan civil war on Vegeta. No mention of a war, good and evil saiyans or planet Vegeta. This is what I mean about Super's timeline. The BoG's arc didn't just alter events and Beerus's true power, there was an active change to the story of the Super Saiyan God that cuts all history that was stated in the movie.

BoG Movie: SSG existed on Vegeta, was part of a civil war but was killed due to the time limit and here's how you make one.

BoG Super: SSG existed at some point in time, appears in saiyan mythology and here's how to make one.

So they didn't forget and actually made corrections to the story to make SSG's origins more ambiguous and able to slot into the timeline without contradiction anything.

User avatar
Jack Bz
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 165
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:44 pm

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by Jack Bz » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:22 pm

I loved the design of ssj God and am sad it was so short lived. I didn't care for the lore behind it or how it was achieved though.

Ssj blue on the other hand isn't as good, but it has a great aura and I like how, at least according to RoF, it was just combining 2 different forms to make something new. Bums me out that according to the manga the next step in the evolution of the form is to get rid of the aura, it's the best part of the design!

User avatar
Avok
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:54 pm

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by Avok » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:23 pm

Eh, I've come to terms with them and I'm used to seeing them after so long, but if you were to ask me what I think of them... Yeah, no bueno.

SSG is typical neo-Toriyama, but that doesn't mean I like it. I'm not really fond of Toriyama's current artstyle where everyone is a stick figure, and it's pretty jarring when Goku transforms. I don't like the big eyes and the fact that the hair stays the same. More so, for some reason it makes Goku look really orange. The hand-holding ritual and the unborn Saiyan thing are ridiculous and Blutz-wave tier (now that I think about it, the Blutz waves actually made sense).

SSB is the worst thing that has happened in Dragon Ball. Ugly, uninteresting, and pretty much pointless. The different Super Saiyan transformations all followed a fixed logic of spiker and longer hair, and that was it. And now suddenly there are vibrant colors out of the blue. Like, blonde is a natural hair color, so it wasn't as jarring. With SSB, half of the time it looks like candy hair (it didn't look that bad in Toriyama's original design, but hey, muh highlights). I wish they would have stayed in that lane. White, light brown, or even reddish brown.

User avatar
Marlowe89
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:30 pm

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:02 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Also let's rubbish the myth that these designs are "lazy" while we are here. Right okay people wanted a recoloured SS4 and then crying because SSGod was "KK rip off" "recolour" is absolutely hilarious. :lol: SSGod isn't lazy or a recolour, as seen here:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

As you can see SSGod Goku is:
a) Skinnier than Base Goku
b) The clothes are lighter
c) The boots have now a white trim
d) The single hair strands have gone
e) The middle bang is now raised
f) The aura is completely different.
g) Eyes are different to base
h) This is subjective but it pops and makes Goku look gorgeous (in a purely non sexual or love kind of way)

Lazy recolour my ass. Hell it was probably harder coming up with this design then doing something wacky like SS3.
This is also a point I've been trying to make, repeatedly even, to no avail. I'll never understand the typical fan charge of "Super Saiyan God is just base with differently-colored hair" when in fact such a critique couldn't possibly be further from the truth.

There is no commonality between SSG and base aside from the similar hairstyle, and even that isn't strictly identical. It has arguably made as many (if not even more) alterations to Goku's appearance as Super Saiyan 3.

User avatar
gofishus
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 344
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:59 pm
Contact:

Re: Why so much hate with the Divine forms?

Post by gofishus » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:00 am

Bullza wrote:
Overlord78 wrote:No my opinion hasn't changed at all. Both SSG and SSB are still just awful recoloured transformations that had little to no thought put into them. SSJ4 has and always will be the superior transformation compared to them. Maybe this new form that Goku will achieve will actually be good and not just another recolour.
Super Saiyan 4 was a stupid looking form that made no sense at all.

Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue have simplistic designs with slight changes just as was the case with pretty much all the other forms.

Super Saiyan was just his hair standing up and turning a different colour. In Vegeta's case his Super Saiyan form was just a recolour. Ascended Super Saiyan was practically the same with slightly bigger muscles. Super Saiyan 2 was practically the same except with slightly spikier hair.

There was a bigger change in appearance with Super Saiyan God than there was with some of these other forms.
Highly disagree. SSJ4 is the most original transformation out of all of them, and harkens back to the Oozaru form which Toriyama apparently forgot about after the Saiyan saga. Its a very clever and interesting transformation. SSB and SSR are just recolors completely agree with the OP.

Post Reply