Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:22 pm

What if the angels want to be liberated? They're forced to be neutral, and they have to take care of the Gods of the Destruction, who they're also bound to because if they die by normal conventions, the angels stop functioning (or whatever). Maybe when Zeno destroys their universes, they become free, in a sense. Just food for thought.
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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by Basako » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:34 pm

I think even Mojito is too much, remember Goku SSG was a 6, Beerus a 10 and Whis a 15. The only one in pair of Beerus would be Vegetto SSB and probably Jiren. For now, I prefer if they leave the Daishinkan in neutral status.
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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by dario03 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:25 pm

I wouldn't mind if he was a villain. But I'm more interested in finding out what the actual roles of all the angels and him is. Are things really what they seem? Or is this going to end up being like Whis and Beerus and we find out the Grand Priest is actually stronger than Zeno. He is the father of the Angels, maybe he is also Zeno's father and all of this is just some crazy way of raising him. Also what happened to the Angels from Universes 13-18?

Like in this video from MasakoX https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3U9RltvLtg which goes with Zeno is really a Grand God of Destruction and Grand Priest is the Grand creation god.
Or if not that I was thinking maybe something similar like he is the balance and the grand creation god hasn't been shown yet, If so maybe that's somebody related to him, like wife or mother or father.
Or maybe he is just trying to get it so there is only one Universe, maybe there used to only be one and Zeno caused a split.

IIRC the only thing that Zeno seems to have made was the button, everything else has been him destroying or really erasing things, so more like God of Erasing.
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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by sintzu » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:30 pm

That look U9's Whis gave when his universe was destroyed pretty much says they're at least up to no good.

I can't wait to see what happened to u13-18's angles, were they against what's going on so they got destroyed as well ? or locked up ?
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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by Saturnine » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:09 pm

Basako wrote:I think even Mojito is too much, remember Goku SSG was a 6, Beerus a 10 and Whis a 15. The only one in pair of Beerus would be Vegetto SSB and probably Jiren. For now, I prefer if they leave the Daishinkan in neutral status.
Goku being 6 to Beerus' 10 hasn't been relevant for like, more than a year now. Still, Whis being 1,5x stronger than Beerus might still hold, but frankly, I think it might be even more, seeing how important the angels are.

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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:12 pm

Saturnine wrote:
Basako wrote:I think even Mojito is too much, remember Goku SSG was a 6, Beerus a 10 and Whis a 15. The only one in pair of Beerus would be Vegetto SSB and probably Jiren. For now, I prefer if they leave the Daishinkan in neutral status.
Goku being 6 to Beerus' 10 hasn't been relevant for like, more than a year now. Still, Whis being 1,5x stronger than Beerus might still hold, but frankly, I think it might be even more, seeing how important the angels are.
I dont think Whis can be 1.5x stronger. None of the Hakaioshin are strong as angels and Beerus isnt the strongest of them as far as we know.

They may be similar in power but any bit about Beerus would push them too close to Whis IMO.
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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by Asura » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:31 pm

Well, it would certainly be very interesting, but at the same time I feel like we've gone too far. What is past the Grand Priest aside from Zeno? How would you ever top him in terms of introducing a new enemy? He'd pretty much be a roof that Goku would hit where he can't go any further.

But if it were to happen, I question how it would happen, and how Goku and the others would win. It's not just that the Grand Priest would be evil, but some or all of the Angels as well. Considering that universes (including GoDs) are getting erased on the spot when they lose, that means that when shit hits the fan, most likely the only GoDs left would be Beerus and Vermoud (or Vermouth? or even Belmod? Is there a universally decided upon name for this guy yet?). Although since they've given U6 a lot of focus too, it's possible they'll stick around at the end, which adds Champa to the list.

There's also the 4 GoD's of the universes that aren't participating, and it's speculated that the strongest GoD is among them. That would be 6, possibly 7 GoDs if we count Champa. After Goku's new transformation and the fact that Jiren is most likely the person stronger than a GoD, that would put Goku and Jiren at around GoD status too. That's 8, possibly 9 GoDs/at GoD level. Forgetting the GP for a second, would it even be possible for them to defeat all of the Angels? I'd guess probably not, even with people like Toppo, Gohan, Hit, and Vegeta helping. The only way they'd stand a chance is if half the Angels were on their side.

I don't know, I think going down this "Grand Priest is evil" territory almost amounts to fan-fiction just because of all of the stops they would have to pull just to beat him, especially considering some or all Angels are on his side.

Although I haven't read it in a long, long time, this arc really reminds me a lot of Bleach. Pretty sure something similar happened in Bleach too where some of the gods betrayed the others and Ichigo and the "good" gods had to fight the "bad" gods? I think the big "bad" god was named Aizen? It's been a long time, but I thought that scenario went something like that. I don't think I really liked Bleach but I always thought that concept was really cool.

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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:08 pm

Asura wrote:Well, it would certainly be very interesting, but at the same time I feel like we've gone too far. What is past the Grand Priest aside from Zeno? How would you ever top him in terms of introducing a new enemy? He'd pretty much be a roof that Goku would hit where he can't go any further.

But if it were to happen, I question how it would happen, and how Goku and the others would win. It's not just that the Grand Priest would be evil, but some or all of the Angels as well. Considering that universes (including GoDs) are getting erased on the spot when they lose, that means that when shit hits the fan, most likely the only GoDs left would be Beerus and Vermoud (or Vermouth? or even Belmod? Is there a universally decided upon name for this guy yet?). Although since they've given U6 a lot of focus too, it's possible they'll stick around at the end, which adds Champa to the list.

There's also the 4 GoD's of the universes that aren't participating, and it's speculated that the strongest GoD is among them. That would be 6, possibly 7 GoDs if we count Champa. After Goku's new transformation and the fact that Jiren is most likely the person stronger than a GoD, that would put Goku and Jiren at around GoD status too. That's 8, possibly 9 GoDs/at GoD level. Forgetting the GP for a second, would it even be possible for them to defeat all of the Angels? I'd guess probably not, even with people like Toppo, Gohan, Hit, and Vegeta helping. The only way they'd stand a chance is if half the Angels were on their side.

I don't know, I think going down this "Grand Priest is evil" territory almost amounts to fan-fiction just because of all of the stops they would have to pull just to beat him, especially considering some or all Angels are on his side.

Although I haven't read it in a long, long time, this arc really reminds me a lot of Bleach. Pretty sure something similar happened in Bleach too where some of the gods betrayed the others and Ichigo and the "good" gods had to fight the "bad" gods? I think the big "bad" god was named Aizen? It's been a long time, but I thought that scenario went something like that. I don't think I really liked Bleach but I always thought that concept was really cool.
If the Grand Priest did turn out to be a villain, I feel like the best solution would be another Babidi/Buu moment where Goku or someone else helps Zeno realize that he's being taken advantage of and doesn't want to take orders anymore, so Zeno offs the guy himself. That still leaves plenty of room for Goku and co to grow and fight enemies stronger than themselves. Didn't Whis say Grand Priest was one of the top 5 in the anime?

Pulling a Namek and boosting Goku up to his level so he can be defeated in a straight fight does feel like the wrong step, for the reasons you laid out. But I do think that some kind of shake-up in the cosmic hierarchy or toppling of the godly order would be a good way to cap off Super's "arena of the gods" theme and shift the focus back to Earth for The End of Z and beyond while still leaving plenty of challenge out there to face.

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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by Almighty Majin » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:49 pm

There's still things like the other four universes (U1,U5, U8, U12) to be used in another arc and whatever is going on with the six destroyed universes. Perhaps they get all wished back or their angels are somewhere else just waiting to be released or something. If the Grand Priest turns out to be a villain, it'll have to take arcs for that to happen since the characters will have to surpass the hakaishins and the other angels.

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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:27 pm

I don't get why people are saying that the Grand Priest can't be a villain because of how strong he is. Are we forgetting how much stronger Freeza was than everyone else at the beginning of his titular arc? At the beginning of that arc, Freeza in his weakest form was more than 20 times stronger than Vegeta, who himself was significantly stronger than Gohan and Kuririn.

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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:49 pm

I definitely think he's up to something, if I remember correctly in the original trailer for this arc which had manga panels, didn't it have a scene with the Grand Priest bulky and shirtless. I feel like that will come into play closer to the end of the arc.
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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by Asura » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:10 pm

WittyUsername wrote:I don't get why people are saying that the Grand Priest can't be a villain because of how strong he is. Are we forgetting how much stronger Freeza was than everyone else at the beginning of his titular arc? At the beginning of that arc, Freeza in his weakest form was more than 20 times stronger than Vegeta, who himself was significantly stronger than Gohan and Kuririn.
It would be like Majin Buu coming to Namek when Goku is already getting trashed by Freeza. He might be able to overcome and defeat Freeza, but there's no way in hell he can beat Buu.

Similarly, Whis is stronger than Beerus, and Beerus is assumed now to still be stronger than Goku, or maybe we can even put them around the same strength if we're being generous. Goku has never even landed a hit on Whis, I think the closest he's ever gotten was biting him. The Grand Priest is even much stronger than Whis.

Basically, he's so far above and beyond Goku that Goku would have to surpass multiple people ahead of him before even being up to the challenge of fighting the Grand Priest. So while Goku might be able to beat Freeza (who would be Beerus in this instance, but he probably can't even do that) he'll never be able to beat Buu (Whis) or someone that's even far, far stronger than Buu, like Beerus (Grand Priest in this instance)

So imagine if Namek Goku had to become stronger than Freeza, stronger than Buu, and just as strong as Beerus, all while on Namek. That's basically how impossible it would be for Goku to win.

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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by Melab » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:19 pm

I saw a suggestion on YouTube that the Grand Priest might be manipulating Zen-Oh. If true, then the Grand Priest and the angels being the villains in this arc would be made more sensible by taking a good deal of the blame off of Zen-Oh, who wouldn't make for a great antagonist being so innocent and childlike.

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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by Melab » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:21 pm

Asura wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:I don't get why people are saying that the Grand Priest can't be a villain because of how strong he is. Are we forgetting how much stronger Freeza was than everyone else at the beginning of his titular arc? At the beginning of that arc, Freeza in his weakest form was more than 20 times stronger than Vegeta, who himself was significantly stronger than Gohan and Kuririn.
It would be like Majin Buu coming to Namek when Goku is already getting trashed by Freeza. He might be able to overcome and defeat Freeza, but there's no way in hell he can beat Buu.

Similarly, Whis is stronger than Beerus, and Beerus is assumed now to still be stronger than Goku, or maybe we can even put them around the same strength if we're being generous. Goku has never even landed a hit on Whis, I think the closest he's ever gotten was biting him. The Grand Priest is even much stronger than Whis.

Basically, he's so far above and beyond Goku that Goku would have to surpass multiple people ahead of him before even being up to the challenge of fighting the Grand Priest. So while Goku might be able to beat Freeza (who would be Beerus in this instance, but he probably can't even do that) he'll never be able to beat Buu (Whis) or someone that's even far, far stronger than Buu, like Beerus (Grand Priest in this instance)

So imagine if Namek Goku had to become stronger than Freeza, stronger than Buu, and just as strong as Beerus, all while on Namek. That's basically how impossible it would be for Goku to win.
Who says it would need to be a fight with the Grand Priest?

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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by Melab » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:34 pm

I also have some trouble with the idea of the Grand Priest being a villain. In episode sixty-seven, he expressed admiration of universe seven. That doesn't seem like something writers would have a villain do. So, if he is an antagonist, it need not be of a truly villainous kind.

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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by Asura » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:51 pm

Melab wrote:
Asura wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:I don't get why people are saying that the Grand Priest can't be a villain because of how strong he is. Are we forgetting how much stronger Freeza was than everyone else at the beginning of his titular arc? At the beginning of that arc, Freeza in his weakest form was more than 20 times stronger than Vegeta, who himself was significantly stronger than Gohan and Kuririn.
It would be like Majin Buu coming to Namek when Goku is already getting trashed by Freeza. He might be able to overcome and defeat Freeza, but there's no way in hell he can beat Buu.

Similarly, Whis is stronger than Beerus, and Beerus is assumed now to still be stronger than Goku, or maybe we can even put them around the same strength if we're being generous. Goku has never even landed a hit on Whis, I think the closest he's ever gotten was biting him. The Grand Priest is even much stronger than Whis.

Basically, he's so far above and beyond Goku that Goku would have to surpass multiple people ahead of him before even being up to the challenge of fighting the Grand Priest. So while Goku might be able to beat Freeza (who would be Beerus in this instance, but he probably can't even do that) he'll never be able to beat Buu (Whis) or someone that's even far, far stronger than Buu, like Beerus (Grand Priest in this instance)

So imagine if Namek Goku had to become stronger than Freeza, stronger than Buu, and just as strong as Beerus, all while on Namek. That's basically how impossible it would be for Goku to win.
Who says it would need to be a fight with the Grand Priest?
It doesn't even matter. Even if it's a fight with the Angels, Goku would still lose. Even if he had Jiren, Beerus and the other 4 GoD's from the universes not in the tournament on his side, they'd still probably lose.

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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by Melab » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:28 pm

Asura wrote:
Melab wrote:
Asura wrote:
It would be like Majin Buu coming to Namek when Goku is already getting trashed by Freeza. He might be able to overcome and defeat Freeza, but there's no way in hell he can beat Buu.

Similarly, Whis is stronger than Beerus, and Beerus is assumed now to still be stronger than Goku, or maybe we can even put them around the same strength if we're being generous. Goku has never even landed a hit on Whis, I think the closest he's ever gotten was biting him. The Grand Priest is even much stronger than Whis.

Basically, he's so far above and beyond Goku that Goku would have to surpass multiple people ahead of him before even being up to the challenge of fighting the Grand Priest. So while Goku might be able to beat Freeza (who would be Beerus in this instance, but he probably can't even do that) he'll never be able to beat Buu (Whis) or someone that's even far, far stronger than Buu, like Beerus (Grand Priest in this instance)

So imagine if Namek Goku had to become stronger than Freeza, stronger than Buu, and just as strong as Beerus, all while on Namek. That's basically how impossible it would be for Goku to win.
Who says it would need to be a fight with the Grand Priest?
It doesn't even matter. Even if it's a fight with the Angels, Goku would still lose. Even if he had Jiren, Beerus and the other 4 GoD's from the universes not in the tournament on his side, they'd still probably lose.
My point is that a conflict against the Grand Priest need not be a fight.

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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:00 pm

Asura wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:I don't get why people are saying that the Grand Priest can't be a villain because of how strong he is. Are we forgetting how much stronger Freeza was than everyone else at the beginning of his titular arc? At the beginning of that arc, Freeza in his weakest form was more than 20 times stronger than Vegeta, who himself was significantly stronger than Gohan and Kuririn.
It would be like Majin Buu coming to Namek when Goku is already getting trashed by Freeza. He might be able to overcome and defeat Freeza, but there's no way in hell he can beat Buu.

Similarly, Whis is stronger than Beerus, and Beerus is assumed now to still be stronger than Goku, or maybe we can even put them around the same strength if we're being generous. Goku has never even landed a hit on Whis, I think the closest he's ever gotten was biting him. The Grand Priest is even much stronger than Whis.

Basically, he's so far above and beyond Goku that Goku would have to surpass multiple people ahead of him before even being up to the challenge of fighting the Grand Priest. So while Goku might be able to beat Freeza (who would be Beerus in this instance, but he probably can't even do that) he'll never be able to beat Buu (Whis) or someone that's even far, far stronger than Buu, like Beerus (Grand Priest in this instance)

So imagine if Namek Goku had to become stronger than Freeza, stronger than Buu, and just as strong as Beerus, all while on Namek. That's basically how impossible it would be for Goku to win.
I don't think there's any real way to gauge exactly how much stronger the Grand Priest is in comparison to everyone else. We know that he's 2nd only to Zen-Oh (at least in the manga), but that doesn't mean that he can never ever be surpassed. This is Dragon Ball we're talking about. Characters take huge leaps in power all the time. Besides, given that Goku might end up getting a new form soon, there's always the chance that he could end up surpassing Beerus at the very least. Bottom line, I don't really see how the Grand Priest being stronger than everyone else means that he absolutely can't be a villain in the future.

Still, I suppose I should rephrase my question in the title of the OP: should the Grand Priest be a villain somewhere down the line when/if Goku surpasses Beerus?

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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by Snakeway Skywalker » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:05 pm

Asura wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:I don't get why people are saying that the Grand Priest can't be a villain because of how strong he is. Are we forgetting how much stronger Freeza was than everyone else at the beginning of his titular arc? At the beginning of that arc, Freeza in his weakest form was more than 20 times stronger than Vegeta, who himself was significantly stronger than Gohan and Kuririn.
It would be like Majin Buu coming to Namek when Goku is already getting trashed by Freeza. He might be able to overcome and defeat Freeza, but there's no way in hell he can beat Buu.

Similarly, Whis is stronger than Beerus, and Beerus is assumed now to still be stronger than Goku, or maybe we can even put them around the same strength if we're being generous. Goku has never even landed a hit on Whis, I think the closest he's ever gotten was biting him. The Grand Priest is even much stronger than Whis.

Basically, he's so far above and beyond Goku that Goku would have to surpass multiple people ahead of him before even being up to the challenge of fighting the Grand Priest. So while Goku might be able to beat Freeza (who would be Beerus in this instance, but he probably can't even do that) he'll never be able to beat Buu (Whis) or someone that's even far, far stronger than Buu, like Beerus (Grand Priest in this instance)

So imagine if Namek Goku had to become stronger than Freeza, stronger than Buu, and just as strong as Beerus, all while on Namek. That's basically how impossible it would be for Goku to win.
Okay. We get it. Goku's no match for the Grand Priest. Doesn't mean he couldn't fight him eventually some time down the line.

Actually, that would be a great way to end the series, and show how far Goku's come from just saving Universe 7 but all the Universes.

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Re: Do you want the Grand Priest to be the next villain?

Post by Lionel » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:22 pm

They don't have to overpower Daishinkan per se. Isolating him in a contained environment like Piccolo Daimao, manipulating his mind, or expanding whatever darkness in his heart could see him ultimately fail. I know it's not formulaic for Dragon Ball to rely on such measures for resolving conflicts, but if the writer is hoping to maintain the power hierarchy then it's one of the better solutions to this dilemma.

With all of that said, I'm not convinced of Daishinkan having nefarious aims. He's clearly detached from the sentimental muck of mortal loss felt by the pawns beneath him who are in the process of beating each other senseless -- that doesn't make him evil, just indifferent.

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