Where is Zarama?

[GodKaio-Ken]

Like I said I don't think he is the creator myself, but you can't come to a definitive conclusion based on what has been shown. Rulers often have their subordinates do things they are fully capable of themselves. Until someone actually mentions another creator we can't assume their is one, we can only say it appears there may be one.

I just get peeved when people make definitive statements on incomplete facts, because even if said person is right it was just a 50/50 guess.

If Zarama was the creator in question you'd think a God like Beerus or Angel like Whis would have heard of him. Creating the Super Dragon Balls would be major lore in universe from a creation God.

At the very least youd think Kaioshin, Gods who create, would know of this God.

It's the same with Zeno, though. If he is the creator of everything the Gods would surely know it, so why not just come right out and say it? Considering Zeno's position and prestige it's not like such a revelation would be a major twist.

Personally I'm not sure anyone created the universes. They might have just existed already and the gods came later. Didn't Toriyama say in one of his interviews that Buu just sort of existed from the beginning of time? There's Tori-bot of course but the question of whether Tori-bot actually exists in universe is a whole other topic!

@dbgtFO: I can't watch videos on this device but I'll check that out when I can.

Edit for proper response:

Well, there's the fact that he's never shown creating anything at all. The Grand Priest always does it for him. The GodPads, the apps, the Tournament stage, and so on. If Zeno had the ability to create Universes then surely those would be trifles in comparison?

2:37

I see! I remember Zeno handing him the button but I didn't remember the blue light part. Gladly admit I was wrong on that part.

Yeah I get where you're coming from. I just don't think there is enough in either direction to be sure.

[BlueBasilisk]

Yeah I get where you're coming from. I just don't think there is enough in either direction to be sure.

You're right there. And this line of conjecture could be heading in the complete wrong direction. Not the first time that's happened.

[GodVegetto91]

S/he perhaps resides in another reality/multiverse, where the dragons come from when summoned.

BTW, didn't Whis state that Zeno is absolutely the strongest being in "this" world? Maybe that could imply that there could be a stronger being in another "world"...

Yeah, in fact Zeno is not even the creator God nor he was ever implied to be. He's the ruler of the multiverse but nothing more. We haven't see the creator god yet (or we may never see), but undoubtedly that's the strongest being in Dragon Ball. And I don't mean joke characters like Torobot

You sir, have no idea how much i agree with you here.

[Faisal Shourov]

He's never implied not to be either. I'm not saying he is, he probably isnt, but your example offers no proof. Not implying means nothing if you don't imply the opposite either.

The creator God of the multiverse is infinitely stronger than every single character combined. If Zeno was the God, we would've known by now. As it stands, he's the king of all (supreme ruler) but that's it. There are many things which show Zeno isn't the God. He's affected by time travel (creator God is above concept of space time, not affected by time travel and time rings), there are multiple Zenos (there can only be one creator God, since He created everything else), Zeno can't track being faster than himself (the God is infinitely stronger than all characters combined in every aspect, everything else in the series is just fiction to Him).

[Faisal Shourov]

There are some stories where there's no time travel or parallel worlds at all, so causality isn't even an issue, but the top gods in those stories can still be unopposed and supreme.

That's what I said, there's a huge difference between top gods and The God. Even the Living Tribunal died multiple times, and he's the second strongest character in Marvel. None of that would affect TOAA. Creator Gods in most fictions are completely unaffected by anything that happens in the story. Although none of that matters, there being alternate Zenos alone shows he's not the creator god.

[GodVegetto91]

Judging by how naive and childish Zeno is portrayed, aswell as the fact that he's constantly in need of explanations by the Grand Priest about things he doesn't know himself, i'd say it's pretty safe to assume he can't be the omnipotent and omniscient creator God and source of everything else. I believe there is someone above him, and NO it ain't the Grand Priest or that other joke character they call Toribot. I believe the person above him may in fact be his father/parents, or... a being i believe to be a Zenoshin.

It makes sense, think about it.

Kaio
Kaioshin
Zeno
Zenoshin.

As for Zenoshin, he would be infinitely stronger than anyone else, including Zeno. He would be Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient. Aswell as Eternal. He alone created the whole Multiverse and is the source behind everything. Without which, nobody else and nothing can possibly exist.

[Faisal Shourov]

Judging by how naive and childish Zeno is portrayed, aswell as the fact that he's constantly in need of explanations by the Grand Priest about things he doesn't know himself, i'd say it's pretty safe to assume he can't be the omnipotent and omniscient creator God and source of everything else. I believe there is someone above him, and NO it ain't the Grand Priest or that other joke character they call Toribot. I believe the person above him may in fact be his father/parents, or... a being i believe to be a Zenoshin.

It makes sense, think about it.

Kaio
Kaioshin
Zeno
Zenoshin.

As for Zenoshin, he would be infinitely stronger than anyone else, including Zeno. He would be Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient. Aswell as Eternal. He alone created the whole Multiverse and is the source behind everything. Without which, nobody else and nothing can possibly exist.

Interesting idea, I have similar thoughts. Zeno appears to be an untrained God of destruction on steroids and he appears to have an assigned role (King of All for one multiverse). The only move he can do is erase, he can't fight, nor he has good speed. You can in fact 'create' a new Zeno just by creating a time ring. He's nowhere near omnipotent. UpFromTheSkies said there might be an entire race of Zenos which is extremely possible, given how there is one Zeno for each alternate timeline and he's bound to time like everybody else in DBS so far. Unlike Zeno, an omnipotent being is beyond the concept of spacetime entirely and exists simultaneously across all multiverse and timelines; he/she is not even perceived by most characters let alone be interacted.

[GodKaio-Ken]

He's never implied not to be either. I'm not saying he is, he probably isnt, but your example offers no proof. Not implying means nothing if you don't imply the opposite either.

The creator God of the multiverse is infinitely stronger than every single character combined. If Zeno was the God, we would've known by now. As it stands, he's the king of all (supreme ruler) but that's it. There are many things which show Zeno isn't the God. He's affected by time travel (creator God is above concept of space time, not affected by time travel and time rings), there are multiple Zenos (there can only be one creator God, since He created everything else), Zeno can't track being faster than himself (the God is infinitely stronger than all characters combined in every aspect, everything else in the series is just fiction to Him).

You're assuming a lot of things using western ideology that don't need to be true about a God.

[Lupin879]

Nor is he implied not to be, nor there to be a more powerful god.

The very fact that Zeno didn't create Dragon Ball multiverse proves he's not omnipotent. There's a difference between 'god' and God. Thor is a god, but TOAA is the God. God is not limited by anything, creating new timelines doesn't create a new God. God is unaffected by causality. Zeno is something like Thor.

Wait a second. But being Almighty is different than what you mean. A Creator Being is NOT necessarily omnipotent. This is an ideological shadow of your Christian education. However, we do not even know if toaa has created anything there. Nor is he omnipotent, in fact he has never shown anything and has no omnibus. Thor is just a superhuman.

[Faisal Shourov]

Wait a second. But being Almighty is different than what you mean. A Creator Being is NOT necessarily omnipotent. This is an ideological shadow of your Christian education. However, we do not even know if toaa has created anything there. Nor is he omnipotent, in fact he has never shown anything and has no omnibus. Thor is just a superhuman.

A creator is not the same as The creator. Kaioshin are creators but they're not The creator. Anybody with matter manipulation power can create stuff out of thin air.

[Pluto]

A creator is not the same as The creator. Kaioshin are creators but they're not The creator. Anybody with matter manipulation power can create stuff out of thin air.

I am pretty sure everybody is pointing at your "The".

Rather then adapting personal beliefs to DB, you should adapt DB to yours, else just look it as a time killer. Besides, DB follows a few of Buddhist/Zen traditions, which are incompatible with monotheism.

To add to the subject, "the god" in this show is hinting to be a very cold character, to some it may give the feeling of evil, to some it may give the feeling of a parallel between our reality. This show is known to create "human perspectives" in fans which are very illogical in DB fantasy, and if you add religious experience on it, you are about to be very disappointed.

[Faisal Shourov]

I am pretty sure everybody is pointing at your "The".

Rather then adapting personal beliefs to DB, you should adapt DB to yours, else just look it as a time killer. Besides, DB follows a few of Buddhist/Zen traditions, which are incompatible with monotheism.

To add to the subject, "the god" in this show is hinting to be a very cold character, to some it may give the feeling of evil, to some it may give the feeling of a parallel between our reality. This show is known to create "human perspectives" in fans which are very illogical in DB fantasy, and if you add religious experience on it, you are about to be very disappointed.

I am not adding any religion, I am talking about Creators in fiction. Like Azathoth, Tenchi Masaki, Featherine Augustus Aurora, Law of Identity, The Primal Monitor etc.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I am pretty sure everybody is pointing at your "The".

Rather then adapting personal beliefs to DB, you should adapt DB to yours, else just look it as a time killer. Besides, DB follows a few of Buddhist/Zen traditions, which are incompatible with monotheism.

To add to the subject, "the god" in this show is hinting to be a very cold character, to some it may give the feeling of evil, to some it may give the feeling of a parallel between our reality. This show is known to create "human perspectives" in fans which are very illogical in DB fantasy, and if you add religious experience on it, you are about to be very disappointed.

I am not adding any religion, I am talking about Creators in fiction. Like Azathoth, Tenchi Masaki, Featherine Augustus Aurora, Law of Identity, The Primal Monitor etc.

Such creators are very much a non-entity in the world of Dragon Ball. Like was said before, this franchise is based around Asiatic styled gods, beings that are numerous and often surpassed by mortals, and by no means omnipotent or all-powerful.

The closest we have is the almighty wishing power of the Super Shenlong, as well as Zeno's unparalleled ability to erase things, and even those things aren't all-powerful.

[Faisal Shourov]

[/i]. Like was said before, this franchise is based around Asiatic styled gods, beings that are numerous and often surpassed by mortals, and by no means omnipotent or all-powerful.

The closest we have is the almighty wishing power of the Super Shenlong, as well as Zeno's unparalleled ability to erase things, and even those things aren't all-powerful.

Almost all the characters I mentioned above are Asiatic gods, they're from either Japanese light novels or visual novels. I have no clue where people get this idea that Japanese media doesn't have omnipotent beings. There are only three omnipotent beings from western fictions I mentioned- TOAA (Marvel), Azathoth (from Cthulhu Mythos) and Primal Monitor (DC Comics). Pseudo Gods being surpassed by mortals don't even belong in this discussion.

[Lupin879]

Wait a second. But being Almighty is different than what you mean. A Creator Being is NOT necessarily omnipotent. This is an ideological shadow of your Christian education. However, we do not even know if toaa has created anything there. Nor is he omnipotent, in fact he has never shown anything and has no omnibus. Thor is just a superhuman.

A creator is not the same as The creator. Kaioshin are creators but they're not The creator. Anybody with matter manipulation power can create stuff out of thin air.

I know. But The Creator is not necessarily omnipotent.

TOAA (Marvel), Azathoth (from Cthulhu Mythos) and Primal Monitor (DC Comics).

No one of these are omnipotent

[Faisal Shourov]

I know. But The Creator is not necessarily omnipotent.

No one of these are omnipotent[/quote]

Yes they are. Do you even know who these characters are?

[Meshack]

I know. But The Creator is not necessarily omnipotent.

No one of these are omnipotent

Yes they are. Do you even know who these characters are?[/quote]
The gods in Dragonball are not omnipotent, omniscient, or immortal. Gods of Eastern mythology are none of these things and Dragonball's gods are based on Eastern mythology. Kami-sama is not any of these things, the Kaioh aren't these things, the Kaiohshin aren't these things, the Hakaishin aren't these things, Zalama is not these things, Daishinkan is not these things, and Zenoh is not these things. The gods are basically the humans but their status is higher.

[larzooma]

Possible theory for Zarama's imminent introduction into the ToP below, but the foundation is build on a couple of spoilers revealed recently.

[spoiler]Based on an upcoming toy release, combined with information a new fighter enters the battle in episode 114, a possible unseen "high level fighter" (as he's titled in the toy release) is going to come into the fold. It's possible he's one of the unseen characters they've teased, possibly one of the U6 Namekians or U4 insects. It's also possible it's a completely new characters, which means he/she would need to fall outside the roster, since we've seen them all. One possibility of someone powerful enough to enter the tournament without fearing a reaction from the Zenos or the Grand Priest, is Zarama. He could have sensed Jiren's power for example, and decided to test how strong a mortal could have possibly become. Just a suggestion for introducing Zarama in a significant way, disrupting the erasure of any further universes, and providing a clear path into the next story arc. They've spent too much time developing U6 and U11, in addition to the U7 characters to either erase 2 of the 3, or disregard them completely once the tournament ends.[/spoiler]

[Lupin879]

I know. But The Creator is not necessarily omnipotent.

No one of these are omnipotent

Yes they are. Do you even know who these characters are?

The gods in Dragonball are not omnipotent, omniscient, or immortal. Gods of Eastern mythology are none of these things and Dragonball's gods are based on Eastern mythology. Kami-sama is not any of these things, the Kaioh aren't these things, the Kaiohshin aren't these things, the Hakaishin aren't these things, Zalama is not these things, Daishinkan is not these things, and Zenoh is not these things. The gods are basically the humans but their status is higher.[/quote]
No they aren't
You did not understand the point. A divine being who creates and who is the Creator does not necessarily mean to be omnipotent. A mighty one can also be a being who has not created anything but lives for himself. Now Supreme Shenron is omnipotent. Because he can do everything.

[Lupin879]

I know. But The Creator is not necessarily omnipotent.

No one of these are omnipotent

Yes they are. Do you even know who these characters are?[/quote]

Yes I do
No one of them are omniscient just supreme