Dragon Ball Super: Vegeta's Character Development and My Take

[MajinVejitaXV]

hello i am new and leik the dragunball Z so nau I watch sooper...Err, heya.

So, I've been keeping up with Super (once it got into actual new content) and have been enjoying it quite a bit. I've also read a lot of feedback and seen a lot of commentary, a lot of course being focused on the animation issues and "let's do the time warp again" redux of the Battle of the Gods/Resurrection 'F' movies, but one bit of criticism that I noticed coming from the fandom has to do with our favorite rocker of the widow's peak and his character development, namely how Super is "undoing" it. Or so I've heard some people say. Now, I'd heard this complaint as far back as the release of the final Kanzenban manga volume back in 2004 or so. The single panel that Toriyama added with Vegeta smirking about how he'd beat Kakarrot one day made some people flip their shit. They saw it as an undoing of the "You're number one" payoff and I recall some people being pretty sour about it.

I didn't get it then, I still don't get it now. I figured I would lay out my understanding of the character and see if people had different interpretations of events/the progression of the character that made Vegeta's actions seem so much more of a step backwards in terms of his development.

First of all, I personally never saw Vegeta's "you're number one" admission as an indication that he was through competing with Goku. I saw it as him letting go of the malice that fueled/went hand-in-hand with his desire to be stronger. To me, Vegeta always wanted to be stronger and kill/maim/humiliate Goku, progressively turning that desire down like a volume knob as time wore on (i.e. - Vegeta in the Freeza arc, if Freeza was not a bigger issue, would have likely killed Goku without hesitation if given the chance, while Vegeta in the Cell arc might have been satisfied with merely beating him to the point of humiliation but leaving him barely alive, etc.). Sure, in the Boo arc he turned that malice back up to 11 (or pretended to, almost like an adult going back to their high school reunion and trying to recapture their youth), but even then he snapped out of it and sacrificed himself believing that he was stopping that threat that he helped unleash. Later on he was pissed because his "closure" was a lie with his having learned about SSJ3, but Vegeta seemed to have changed. Later, with the "you're number one" admission he finally lets go of this part of his personality and allows himself to admit (and accept) that Goku has surpassed him. And then, of course, he gets resurrected implying that this act had allowed him to expel the last bit of evil in his heart.

Now, to hear some people talk about this scene, you'd think they expected Vegeta to give up his aspirations completely and take up scrap-booking or something. Or maybe they expected that Vegeta would continue being a fighter but wouldn't aspire to surpass Goku. Which...to me, that would completely go against the character.

From my vantage, at this point Vegeta and Goku became something resembling me and my best friend of 20 years (though not as close, admittedly). We respect each other but we remain competitive. If one of us does something then it drives the other to do the same if not more and that keeps us sharp. Vegeta says something to that extent when Freeza gives him the opportunity to kill Goku in the Resurrection 'F' film. They train together, they fight together (hell, I was shocked by their teamwork recently in episode 98 which culminated in a non-fused Final Kamehameha). They still (both) want to one-up each other, but it's completely different than before (from Vegeta's side of things at least). Vegeta has his pride, he still wants to be the best, but the inclination towards murder and mayhem that may have followed after accomplishing that feat for a younger Vegeta are not there anymore.

Personally, of all the characters in Super, I think Vegeta's development has been the best. Among other things we've seen him truly grow as a family man, leading to some of my favorite scenes in the series (father-son Gallick Gun, anyone?). I can't say the same for some characters and the direction Super has taken with them (*cough*Herp derp muh name is Son Goku I forgot how to tie my boots lawl isnt that funny and not at all infuriating for longtime fans*cough*). Vegeta still has his same end goal (to be the strongest), and he still wants to win (as he does now, with his declaration of wanting to get the Super Dragon Balls and make a wish), but his motivations as well as the rest of his personality have changed around that. And to me, that's acceptable in terms of development and consistency.

What do you guys think? Am I missing the point? Am I missing several points? I was just curious to see what other people thought about the topic.

[Amerigo]

The main thing is that, while Vegeta has matured, he has also become boring and stale.

And while Goku has regressed, he has become more interesting. Without Goku, the entire series would be another slice-of-life TV show with old, boring characters.

Vegeta is no longer interesting. His character has ended, and will forever be Bulma's lapdog, Beerus' chew toy, etc.

What does he even add to the story anymore? He's just a 54 year old, stay at home dad, whose own wife relies on another man for protection, and is forever going through the same cycle of gaining a new transformation, getting jobbed, screaming "Kakarotto", then going back into the gravity chamber.

Vegeta used to be a daredevil. Now he's just a goody two-shoes, stay at home dad, forever destined to lick Bulma's feet while she belittles him to his face, and even to his son.

Vegeta's character was ruined, all to appease his horde of fangirls who fantasize about taming a bad boy.

[MajinVejitaXV]

It sounds like you just don't like the development at all, which is fine. I think my question was more directed towards people who thought that Vegeta's development was seemingly undone/negated by him showing a drive still to be the best, as though that wasn't compatible with the changes made to the character over time.

As for your points, I get what you're saying but I disagree. If anything, Goku is the one I find stale because he's simply doing the same thing over and over. Outside of his power ups, I'd find difficulty thinking of anything that Goku has done as a character in Super aside from his "Look I'm so funny because I'm dumb" antics. And that's fine, that's who Goku is really. He's the lovable simpleton who just happens to be the most powerful guy at the end of the day. I don't expect massive character development from him.

As for Vegeta and Bulma, I find it amusing usually. Sure, we already had that formula with Goku and Chichi but I still get a kick out of it. I don't see Vegeta as neutered (which, I did in GT) though. It's just the progression of the Shonen formula, bad guy fights good guy and is beaten then gradually becomes an ally. With the "de-eviling" comes some comic relief to make the character more likable. I don't think fangirls had anything to do with it, given that the target demographic is young males. ;p

[precita]

It's best if Vegeta is retired after this tournament. In EOZ it seems like he was pretty much done, and we're headed to that point.

[fadeddreams5]

The most significant development of Vegeta's character occurred when Bulma was pregnant again. He actually refused to leave her side, even if it meant training or fighting strong people. He didn't even care about Goku surpassing him. That was nice, considering this was the same guy who did not think for a second about saving her and Baby Trunks in the Android saga, scoffing at the idea afterwards. Besides this, he's been fairly consistent throughout Super, with his more tame and cautious personality coming as a result of his development at the end of Z, not Super.

Still, I much prefer OG "PRINCE OF ALL SAIYANS" Vegeta. Such a delusional asshole.

[Amerigo]

Goku is the dare devil of the series, causing mayhem and destruction wherever he goes. If the Joker - from Batman - was a 'good guy', DBS Goku would be it.

While Vegeta-salami is getting on his knees and licking Beerus feet, Goku is defying the most powerful gods in existence, giving them the middle finger, and shouting "give me your best".

Goku has charisma and energy, he is a dominating force of nature, he gives no fucks.

He walked up to the most dangerous being in existencen and called him "chan".

Goku is a badass motherfucker in DBS, accidentally destroying universes, causing pain and misery, and laughing in the face of gods.

Vegeta used to be these things, too. Now? Not so much. The daredevil on namek will never return.

[MajinVejitaXV]

I wouldn't call Goku a daredevil any more than I would call an infant a daredevil for sticking something made of metal in an electrical outlet, but that's just me. ;p

[Totamo]

without his drive to be the best, vegeta becomes piccolo and just as useful.

[Amerigo]

I wouldn't call Goku a daredevil any more than I would call an infant a daredevil for sticking something made of metal in an electrical outlet, but that's just me. ;p

Anyone that can look Beerus' in the eyes, defy his authority, and laugh in his face... All at the same time. That is what being a Daredevil is all about.

[MajinVejitaXV]

Anyone that can look Beerus' in the eyes, defy his authority, and laugh in his face... All at the same time. That is what being a Daredevil is all about.

I'm not sure which scene you're referring to, but the interactions I recall seemed to be based more on the typical "Goku doesn't know any better and/or thinks that Beerus is his buddy much as he's ignored the position of basically every God he's come across" instead of "Goku did the fusion dance with Denis Leary and now he has an attitude and just tells people to go fuck themselves."

[Amerigo]

Anyone that can look Beerus' in the eyes, defy his authority, and laugh in his face... All at the same time. That is what being a Daredevil is all about.

I'm not sure which scene you're referring to, but the interactions I recall seemed to be based more on the typical "Goku doesn't know any better and/or thinks that Beerus is his buddy much as he's ignored the position of basically every God he's come across" instead of "Goku did the fusion dance with Denis Leary and now he has an attitude and just tells people to go fuck themselves."

I'm talking about the scene where Goku pressed the Zeno button after Beerus warned him not to do so, even threatening him with Hakai. Goku narrowed his eyes at Beerus, tricked him, laughed in his face, then pressed the Zeno button.

That took balls of steel.

[Dragonballgod19]

I wouldn't call Goku a daredevil any more than I would call an infant a daredevil for sticking something made of metal in an electrical outlet, but that's just me. ;p

Anyone that can look Beerus' in the eyes, defy his authority, and laugh in his face... All at the same time. That is what being a Daredevil is all about.

Goku retarded it's pretty much why he shows no fear to beerus and vegeta isn't even afraid of beerus anymore it's already been shown this whole arc so far

[MajinVejitaXV]

I'm talking about the scene where Goku pressed the Zeno button after Beerus warned him not to do so, even threatening him with Hakai. Goku narrowed his eyes at Beerus, tricked him, laughed in his face, then pressed the Zeno button.

That took balls of steel.

Hm...gotta disagree on that one. Let me compare a scene with a similar setup and you can see if you get where I'm coming from.

17 and 18 wake up 16 and then all 3 take off. Everyone flips out and Vegeta goes to chase after them. Trunks stops him and, knowing that Vegeta can't win based on the events of his future, tries to reason with Vegeta. Vegeta responds by punching Trunks in the gut and flies away to get his arms broken and "his shit wrecked," as the kids would say.

Contrast that with the scene between Beerus and Goku regarding the Zeno button. Beerus tries to reason with Goku telling him how dangerous Zeno is and Goku, like a whiny, insolent child, argues that he just wants a tournament and says that Zeno isn't that bad. Beerus threatens to Hakai him and Goku resorts to a variation on the "look over there" gag (again, like a child) then laughs and uses the button.

Similar scenes with similar setups (Trunks knows more, having come from the future to stop the very thing that Vegeta is rushing off to do, while Beerus knows more, being an actual God who knows how Zeno is and what he is capable of). Both have similar outcomes (Vegeta and everyone get shredded like tissue paper, as Trunks warned, while Zeno ends up organizing the tournament that Goku wanted so badly with the twist that losing universes will be wiped from existence...oops). However, their execution is very different. Vegeta understands what Trunks is saying but believes he's too powerful to lose and punches Trunks then flies off. It's basically a big non-verbal "fuck you." Goku, on the other hand, doesn't seem to grasp the reality of what Zeno is. Hell, Goku's never seemed to have much understanding or respect for the Gods. Goku is, literally, a brain damaged man-child who only hears what he wants to. Think about every conversation Goku has had with someone about a terrifying baddie:

"Hey, Beerus is bad news. He's literally a force of nature, incredibly powerful and can destroy entire planets. He's like nothing you've ever faced and if you try to fight him you're putting everyone and everything in danger."
"So...he's strong. Awesome, I'mma deck him in the schnoz."
"...were you even listening?"
"Of course, he's strong. Can't wait to fight him."
"Seriously, if you fight him you're putting everyone in danger."
"Sorry, wasn't paying attention. I was thinking about how strong he must be and how I can't wait to fight him. Were you saying something about food?"

Even in that convo about the Zeno button, Beerus and Whis both agree that it's a bad idea and that there's no telling what will happen. Goku, like a child who isn't even paying attention, replies excitedly "You mean there might be someone really terrible (at the tournament that we're totally gonna have because I'm going to see my pal Zeno and let him know that we should totally do that)?" It's completely different from Vegeta who comprehends what he's being told and just thinks he knows better. Goku genuinely doesn't get why Beerus and Whis are upset, he just wants to have a big tournament with lots of strong guys to fight. At this point Goku has even seen how Zeno will wipe out an entire universe at the drop of a hat and that doesn't deter him. He admits that he's seen Zeno do it but he doesn't stop to think that casual chats with a child-like deity who can erase existence itself might not be the best idea. Even when Beerus threatens to Hakai Goku, his response is to look all serious for a moment and then play a gag. None of it is serious to him. Even now, in the midst of the tournament that could result in their universe being erased, Goku isn't fixated on a strategy to win and save the day...he just wants to fight the strongest guy he can find, which is Jiren. The rest is just incidental to him.

TL;DR: Goku can't have "balls of steel" because he can't comprehend the danger he's putting himself and others in. Similar to Zeno, Goku is incredibly powerful but lacks the maturity to fully understand the consequences of his actions or to have a measure of fear and/or respect for those who are above him. In most cases it's charming and it's an integral part of the character (plus, that quality makes everyone like Goku including Zeno himself). However, as Goku has started to interact with the upper echelons of the Gods' hierarchy it's become a liability. As a result, Goku has become similar to a cat who pushes a radio into the bathtub with their owner: he has no malice, but that doesn't mean he won't get people killed.

[TheMikado]

The main thing is that, while Vegeta has matured, he has also become boring and stale.

And while Goku has regressed, he has become more interesting. Without Goku, the entire series would be another slice-of-life TV show with old, boring characters.

Vegeta is no longer interesting. His character has ended, and will forever be Bulma's lapdog, Beerus' chew toy, etc.

What does he even add to the story anymore? He's just a 54 year old, stay at home dad, whose own wife relies on another man for protection, and is forever going through the same cycle of gaining a new transformation, getting jobbed, screaming "Kakarotto", then going back into the gravity chamber.

Vegeta used to be a daredevil. Now he's just a goody two-shoes, stay at home dad, forever destined to lick Bulma's feet while she belittles him to his face, and even to his son.

Vegeta's character was ruined, all to appease his horde of fangirls who fantasize about taming a bad boy.

Literally the best post ever. I'm a Vegeta fan and the hanging out with Goku all the time rattled me the wrong way! He's the F'ing Prince of Saiyans, just because he has a development doesn't mean he doesn't think he's a noble elite. Vegeta acting like a commoner is disgusting.

[TheMikado]

It sounds like you just don't like the development at all, which is fine. I think my question was more directed towards people who thought that Vegeta's development was seemingly undone/negated by him showing a drive still to be the best, as though that wasn't compatible with the changes made to the character over time.

As for your points, I get what you're saying but I disagree. If anything, Goku is the one I find stale because he's simply doing the same thing over and over. Outside of his power ups, I'd find difficulty thinking of anything that Goku has done as a character in Super aside from his "Look I'm so funny because I'm dumb" antics. And that's fine, that's who Goku is really. He's the lovable simpleton who just happens to be the most powerful guy at the end of the day. I don't expect massive character development from him.

As for Vegeta and Bulma, I find it amusing usually. Sure, we already had that formula with Goku and Chichi but I still get a kick out of it. I don't see Vegeta as neutered (which, I did in GT) though. It's just the progression of the Shonen formula, bad guy fights good guy and is beaten then gradually becomes an ally. With the "de-eviling" comes some comic relief to make the character more likable. I don't think fangirls had anything to do with it, given that the target demographic is young males. ;p

Oh God no!!! Vegeta in GT was the ultimate progression of who he should have been. He wasn't grumpy for it reason and actually somewhat personable until he felt he had been slighted and you basically knew not to F' with him. Vegeta was an individual and straight up said he's not going to follow Goku around. That's the real Vegeta, not "buddy cop" Vegeta UGH!!!

[Jigurashi]

Tbh I agree with Amerigo and TheMikado. GT Vegeta I felt was a far more natural progression of the character than Super. Super's Vegeta is nice to see him as a family man and all, but it's just boring to watch. He regresses at times to the point where he feels like Cell Saga Vegeta (especially in this saga) that it turns me off from the character even more. I'm so apathetic towards the character that I can't come to actually be interested whenever he's on-screen, something I can really only say for him, the Pilaf Gang, Tenshinhan, and 18. Vegeta really does just come off as a more boring Piccolo half the time in Super.

In comparison, Goku gets flanderized at times in Super, but I honestly feel his current character is the most interesting version of the character since he was a kid. I would say Vegeta was even far better written than Goku for a majority of Super up until this current saga. Despite that, I find myself staying interested in Goku because of his blood knight qualities that make him interesting. Vegeta use to be the wild card of the party, as well as cunning and fairly pragmatic back on Namek, after Namek, his character pretty much died for me and it's only gotten worse. He was obedient and bending down to Beerus' whim, his wife puts her complete faith in Goku more than him, and sometimes he still gets jelly over Goku despite that never should happening again. Even worse, he still is calling himself "Vegeta-sama" when there's really no reason for it. Goku is now the wild card of the protagonists, daring and defying the GoDs, trolling Beerus straight up, and just generally doing whatever the hell he wants to do. He can be stupid, reckless, and extremely inconsiderate at times, but as he put it with 17 he's more so a hero by circumstance and just likes to fight strong guys. I find him more interesting now than ever before.

[Amerigo]

It is a common misconception that Vegeta has the most character development in the series. It's just that most people never watched Dragon Ball, where nearly the entire cast was introduced and completed their development.

I'd say that Piccolo has the most drastic development of all, with Goku being vastly different as a 13 year old than he is now.

Vegeta is a character that was placed on the sacrificial altar of fan service to appeal to all the anime fangirls whose favorite characters never managed to tame the bad boy (ie. Sakura and Sasuke).

It's such a shame, too, since Vegeta used to my 3rd favorite character (1: Mirai Trunks, 2: Goku). Now that spot belongs to Frieza.

Oh well

[omaro34]

without his drive to be the best, vegeta becomes piccolo and just as useful.

What's that supposed to mean? Piccolo trains constantly, he just didn't win the genetic lottery of being a Saiyan. Saiyans get zenkai boosts every time they fight and are near death, Piccolo doesn't benefit from that, yet he's the only non saiyan Z fighter to have kept up with them in strength for years until the Cell games.

If he was a Saiyan, I guarentee you he'd just as strong as Vegeta is now or slightly weaker. Piccolo loves fighting and has that drive to improve. No Namekian even comes close to him in strength from what we know, and to go from a power level of under 500 to being stronger than a Super Saiyan 2 Gohan speaks volumes to his work ethic. Not bad for a Namekian.

[Akyon]

without his drive to be the best, vegeta becomes piccolo and just as useful.

What's that supposed to mean? Piccolo trains constantly, he just didn't win the genetic lottery of being a Saiyan. Saiyans get zenkai boosts every time they fight and are near death, Piccolo doesn't benefit from that, yet he's the only non saiyan Z fighter to have kept up with them in strength for years until the Cell games.

If he was a Saiyan, I guarentee you he'd just as strong as Vegeta is now or slightly weaker. Piccolo loves fighting and has that drive to improve. No Namekian even comes close to him in strength from what we know, and to go from a power level of under 500 to being stronger than a Super Saiyan 2 Gohan speaks volumes to his work ethic. Not bad for a Namekian.

In all fairness some of that power can be attributed to Namekian fusion too. Which is a genetic advantage he does have over the Saiyans. He works his tail off, but it's not ALL his hard work that boosted him that far.

[omaro34]

without his drive to be the best, vegeta becomes piccolo and just as useful.

What's that supposed to mean? Piccolo trains constantly, he just didn't win the genetic lottery of being a Saiyan. Saiyans get zenkai boosts every time they fight and are near death, Piccolo doesn't benefit from that, yet he's the only non saiyan Z fighter to have kept up with them in strength for years until the Cell games.

If he was a Saiyan, I guarentee you he'd just as strong as Vegeta is now or slightly weaker. Piccolo loves fighting and has that drive to improve. No Namekian even comes close to him in strength from what we know, and to go from a power level of under 500 to being stronger than a Super Saiyan 2 Gohan speaks volumes to his work ethic. Not bad for a Namekian.

In all fairness some of that power can be attributed to Namekian fusion too. Which is a genetic advantage he does have over the Saiyans. He works his tail off, but it's not ALL his hard work that boosted him that far.

Very true. Although I don't really count the fusion with Kami since that was his other half, but I definitely give you Nail's fusion.