Dragon Ball Super: Vegeta's Character Development and My Take

[Jigurashi]

without his drive to be the best, vegeta becomes piccolo and just as useful.

What's that supposed to mean? Piccolo trains constantly, he just didn't win the genetic lottery of being a Saiyan. Saiyans get zenkai boosts every time they fight and are near death, Piccolo doesn't benefit from that, yet he's the only non saiyan Z fighter to have kept up with them in strength for years until the Cell games.

If he was a Saiyan, I guarentee you he'd just as strong as Vegeta is now or slightly weaker. Piccolo loves fighting and has that drive to improve. No Namekian even comes close to him in strength from what we know, and to go from a power level of under 500 to being stronger than a Super Saiyan 2 Gohan speaks volumes to his work ethic. Not bad for a Namekian.

I think it's more so that Piccolo's personality works for Piccolo, but Vegeta is just another Piccolo at this point in Super. We already have Piccolo, so why is Vegeta being portrayed as a slightly more arrogant and douchey Piccolo? Piccolo is fine himself.

[Miracles]

Saiyan/early Namek saga Vegeta >>>>>any other Vegeta.

[Asura]

It sounds like you just don't like the development at all, which is fine. I think my question was more directed towards people who thought that Vegeta's development was seemingly undone/negated by him showing a drive still to be the best, as though that wasn't compatible with the changes made to the character over time.

As for your points, I get what you're saying but I disagree. If anything, Goku is the one I find stale because he's simply doing the same thing over and over. Outside of his power ups, I'd find difficulty thinking of anything that Goku has done as a character in Super aside from his "Look I'm so funny because I'm dumb" antics. And that's fine, that's who Goku is really. He's the lovable simpleton who just happens to be the most powerful guy at the end of the day. I don't expect massive character development from him.

As for Vegeta and Bulma, I find it amusing usually. Sure, we already had that formula with Goku and Chichi but I still get a kick out of it. I don't see Vegeta as neutered (which, I did in GT) though. It's just the progression of the Shonen formula, bad guy fights good guy and is beaten then gradually becomes an ally. With the "de-eviling" comes some comic relief to make the character more likable. I don't think fangirls had anything to do with it, given that the target demographic is young males. ;p

Oh God no!!! Vegeta in GT was the ultimate progression of who he should have been. He wasn't grumpy for it reason and actually somewhat personable until he felt he had been slighted and you basically knew not to F' with him. Vegeta was an individual and straight up said he's not going to follow Goku around. That's the real Vegeta, not "buddy cop" Vegeta UGH!!!

Agreed. GT Vegeta was a wonderful continuation of his character and what Super should have aimed for. He was very likeable and level headed, and him and Goku truly felt like good friends instead of bitter rivals. Vegeta in Super is so disappointing by comparison.

[Jigurashi]

It sounds like you just don't like the development at all, which is fine. I think my question was more directed towards people who thought that Vegeta's development was seemingly undone/negated by him showing a drive still to be the best, as though that wasn't compatible with the changes made to the character over time.

As for your points, I get what you're saying but I disagree. If anything, Goku is the one I find stale because he's simply doing the same thing over and over. Outside of his power ups, I'd find difficulty thinking of anything that Goku has done as a character in Super aside from his "Look I'm so funny because I'm dumb" antics. And that's fine, that's who Goku is really. He's the lovable simpleton who just happens to be the most powerful guy at the end of the day. I don't expect massive character development from him.

As for Vegeta and Bulma, I find it amusing usually. Sure, we already had that formula with Goku and Chichi but I still get a kick out of it. I don't see Vegeta as neutered (which, I did in GT) though. It's just the progression of the Shonen formula, bad guy fights good guy and is beaten then gradually becomes an ally. With the "de-eviling" comes some comic relief to make the character more likable. I don't think fangirls had anything to do with it, given that the target demographic is young males. ;p

Oh God no!!! Vegeta in GT was the ultimate progression of who he should have been. He wasn't grumpy for it reason and actually somewhat personable until he felt he had been slighted and you basically knew not to F' with him. Vegeta was an individual and straight up said he's not going to follow Goku around. That's the real Vegeta, not "buddy cop" Vegeta UGH!!!

Agreed. GT Vegeta was a wonderful continuation of his character and what Super should have aimed for. He was very likeable and level headed, and him and Goku truly felt like good friends instead of bitter rivals. Vegeta in Super is so disappointing by comparison.

That's another issue I have with the character and how the writers are portraying this poor excuse for a rivalry. The problem is the writers promote Vegeta as Goku's "eternal rival" but in Super he rarely ever comes off as a legit rival to Goku for a few reasons: They don't actually rival each other. Goku has been so far above Vegeta for most of Super, that I can't put any investment in a "rivalry" when the two characters are rarely ever close in power. They sometimes have Vegeta get jealous over Goku, like when he got jelly over the SSBKK, yet knowing fully well Goku has it, he hasn't really done anything to close that gap. He hasn't tried learning a technique to parallel or catch up with Kaioken. These two aspects reasons makes it even worse that Vegeta competes with a guy who barely if at all acknowledges him as a rival, it comes off one-sided. If they're going to actually promote him as Goku's "Eternal Rival" I'd like it if they made it feel like a rivalry. Otherwise, just stop labeling him a rival. The manga does admittedly do a better job at making it feel a bit more competitive between the two. But in the anime? Goku has flat out ignored Vegeta. I agree that GT Vegeta was a more natural progression of the character.

[MajinVejitaXV]

Interesting, I'm surprised by the love of the GT version. Personally, and I admittedly haven't thought much of GT in general aside from the opening number and the way they ended the series since the first time I watched it back in 1999 or so, I thought everything about Vegeta in GT was bland with a side of bland mixed with Chinese food that you can't remember if you ordered it recently enough that it's still (safely) edible. His appearance looked like a possible bad live-action version of himself and to this day makes me wanna punch babies in the dick (SSJ4 makes him look more like himself, but then gives him the inexplicable green eyes and purple gloves/boots), his character to me at least felt stale and a bit like a beaten dog...not that anyone in GT really got a killer arc in my opinion. *shrug*

[TBMx]

The only reason Toriyama had Vegeta admit that at the end of the Buu saga is because he thought it was ending. It's a resolution. Without the drive to be number one, there isn't much to Vegeta's character. He becomes GT Vegeta without it. GT tried it and it was horrible. It didn't work.

What makes Vegeta's character fall short and not work well is that he makes claims of being number 1 and how he's destined to beat Goku, but he's not actually portrayed as someone who's remotely capable of doing it. SHOW don't tell. He should have been the Sasuke to Goku's Naruto, but Toriyama doesn't portray them as close enough in power and ability to have any kind of tension for their rivalry. We know that everytime Vegeta trains his ass off, and kicks ass, all Goku has to do is yell FULL POWER! and he'll invoke some plot induced stupidity that makes him look better than Vegeta.

Toriyama likes to portray Goku as untouchable to Vegeta not give Vegeta a single major villain to beat while at the same time having the saiyan prince believe he can be number 1. This is having your cake and eating it too. It doesn't make sense that he's both.

[Amerigo]

He should have been the Sasuke to Goku's Naruto.

No, it's the other way around. At least when you look beyond the superficial.

Goku and Sasuke are both genius fighters who everyone loves and fawns over, and this never changes despite the misery, death, and chaos they leave in their wake. They fight similarly as well, studying their opponents weaknesses and strengths and overcoming them through ingenuity. They are both awful husbands/fathers, etc. And their wives carry a torch for them despite all of the shit their husbands put them through.

Vegeta and Naruto are underdogs who lived a large portion of their lives being despised and mocked for their identity (Vegeta: Saiyan, Naruto: Jinchuriki). They had to work tooth and nail to overcome prejudice and prove themselves as worthy of acknowledgment. They fight similarly as well, relying mostly on brute strength/power to dominate their opponents. They are both good husbands/fathers, too.

[TBMx]

He should have been the Sasuke to Goku's Naruto.

No, it's the other way around. At least when you look beyond the superficial.

Goku and Sasuke are both genius fighters who everyone loves and fawns over, and this never changes despite the misery, death, and chaos they leave in their wake. They fight similarly as well, studying their opponents weaknesses and strengths and overcoming them through ingenuity. They are both awful husbands/fathers, etc. And their wives carry a torch for them despite all of the shit their husbands put them through.

Vegeta and Naruto are underdogs who lived a large portion of their lives being despised and mocked for their identity (Vegeta: Saiyan, Naruto: Jinchuriki). They had to work tooth and nail to overcome prejudice and prove themselves as worthy of acknowledgment. They fight similarly as well, relying mostly on brute strength/power to dominate their opponents. They are both good husbands/fathers, too.

That's another thing, they keep saying Vegeta is a combat genius. I see some of that in the manga, but in the Anime all he ever did was yell and smash people down. What's so clever about that? Goku's been portrayed as smart hands down, but Vegeta couldn't even overcome a joke character like Botamo/Magetta combo. I mean really, all it takes to stimy him is to cover magetta's ears? Old school Vegeta would have just ripped his hands off.

I'm always surprised how original Beyblade, Yu gi oh!, Hikaru No Go, Naruto, and even Pokemon all knew how to portray better rivalries than dragonball.

[Jigurashi]

He should have been the Sasuke to Goku's Naruto.

No, it's the other way around. At least when you look beyond the superficial.

Goku and Sasuke are both genius fighters who everyone loves and fawns over, and this never changes despite the misery, death, and chaos they leave in their wake. They fight similarly as well, studying their opponents weaknesses and strengths and overcoming them through ingenuity. They are both awful husbands/fathers, etc. And their wives carry a torch for them despite all of the shit their husbands put them through.

Vegeta and Naruto are underdogs who lived a large portion of their lives being despised and mocked for their identity (Vegeta: Saiyan, Naruto: Jinchuriki). They had to work tooth and nail to overcome prejudice and prove themselves as worthy of acknowledgment. They fight similarly as well, relying mostly on brute strength/power to dominate their opponents. They are both good husbands/fathers, too.

That's another thing, they keep saying Vegeta is a combat genius. I see some of that in the manga, but in the Anime all he ever did was yell and smash people down. What's so clever about that? Goku's been portrayed as smart hands down, but Vegeta couldn't even overcome a joke character like Botamo/Magetta combo. I mean really, all it takes to stimy him is to cover magetta's ears? Old school Vegeta would have just ripped his hands off.

I'm always surprised how original Beyblade, Yu gi oh!, Hikaru No Go, Naruto, and even Pokemon all knew how to portray better rivalries than dragonball.

Somewhat agree. I always felt Yu-Gi-Oh!'s rivalry fell into a similar (to a much lesser extent) problem that the Goku-Vegeta one fell into. Yugi and Kaiba's rivalry was better written than Goku and Vegeta's "rivalry" in that Yugi always did view Kaiba as a legit opponent, but we knew for a long time that the Millennium Puzzle literally controls fate, so Kaiba never had a chance at beating Yugi (which explains why the only time he beat him was when Yugi let him win). Granted, it definitely felt a lot more competitive though as Kaiba was always comparable to Yugi in skill. I've always had this mindset from re-reading the DB manga so many times and how it carries over into the Super anime. Goku and Vegeta's "rivalry" may be iconic, but it's terribly written. Deku and Bakugou are a lot better written as rivals, as are Takao and Kai.

I think part of it is because Goku doesn't stay interested in rivalries for very long. He tends to lose interest in a rival not too long after fighting them the first time. Then there's the fact that as you said, the series never portrays Vegeta as being remotely capable of truly topping Goku for very long, as Goku will swiftly come right back and outclass him. Goku is made out to look superior to Veggie almost all the time. Unfortunately, I don't see this formula changing anytime soon.

[TBMx]

Anyway he seems to be saving his power for something. Picking his battles more than Goku is. Either they're having him saving it for something big and impressive, or they're just sidelining him and having him not do much at all. You never truly know with Toriyama.

[Kinokima]

Seeing Vegeta's character develop in Super is why despite its flaws I am really enjoying Super, way more than I expected and much more than the fandom seems to. Of course I binge watched the series and skipped most of the 1st 2 arcs after watching the movies so that probably helped color my perspective too. I actually had forgotten about Super after it first came out and wasn't licensed.

Then randomly 2 weeks ago I read that Vegeta's daughter was born in Super so I was only going to watch that episode. Then I ended up watching clips on youtube and then one thing lead to another and I ending up watching to the end of the Future Trunks saga this Labour Day weekend. So I am not exactly caught up but the scenes I have seen so far is stuff I never expected to get. Now I don't remember much about GT (except the mustache scene) but I do remember it didn't satisfy me as a Vegeta fan at all. I watched it once and that was enough. But I am loving every second of Super. Not just the Vegeta stuff but seeing all the wonderful character interaction.

A couple things I agree Vegeta still wanting to be stronger than Goku doesn't mean he digressed in character development at all. At the end of Buu saga he admitted Goku was stronger than him. Of course he always knew this deep down but finally admitting it was what was important. Vegeta wanting to strive to better himself in Super to be the best doesn't mean he forgot what he said in the Buu saga. The truth is it is because of Goku that Vegeta is as strong as he is. Vegeta says this himself in the resurrect Frieza arc.

Vegeta is always going to be a step behind Goku. Maybe there will be an arc where Vegeta finally defeats the main bad guy. But even if that happens it will only be an arc. Goku is always going to be the main hero. And that is perfectly fine. Look at Vegeta wanting to become stronger than the Goku the same in the way he tells Cabba and Future Trunks. You should want to surpass me even though it's not possible. This is how Vegeta thinks. Even if someone is better than you still to try to surpass them. Even if Vegeta knows he may never actually surpass Goku he is going to continue to push ahead and try. He's not giving up. This is what gives Vegeta strength. But in the past while trying to surpass Goku made him feel inferior and it was mixed with negative emotions. Here I see his struggle as something positive.

Of course that's not to say Vegeta hasn't completely gotten over Goku being better than him. It is pretty clear in the Trunks saga when Bulma was telling Chibi Trunks and Goten that Goku will defeat Black and didn't even mention Vegeta, Vegeta's pride was hurt. But this didn't stop him from working together with Goku and Future Trunks and putting everything into the fight to help Trunks. At one point he even said himself that he wasn't fighting for himself but for Trunks.


The other big thing in Super is we have quite a lot of family moments with Vegeta. I think a Vegeta who is there for his family (well in a Tsun way) is much cooler than the old Vegeta. Fighting and becoming stronger will always be important to Vegeta but now Super shows he has something else he takes pride in, his family. And while Vegeta still has issues with public displays of affection it is very obvious that his family has become very important to him. It is also obvious that after years of living on Earth he has also accepted some of Earth's norms about being a good husband (staying when your wife is pregnant) And no Vegeta listening to Bulma when she asks him for something doesn't mean he is her lapdog. He loves and admires her and the things she asks him are not unreasonable. Of course Bulma and Vegeta do argue because they both have fiery personalities. But he doesn't have to argue with her every single time. When she tells him to pick up Trunks and Goten on a planet she is right....

And for the most part I don't mind the humor (Vegeta cooking or singing) because Dragon Ball always had comedy. Vegeta wearing the pink shirt and yellow pants wasn't silly to you? I don't think Vegeta should be immune to a some gags and teasing. Okay some of it was too much for me (the pacifier scene) but for most part it is all par for the course with Dragon Ball. I think the humor is part of the series charm and it makes the characters more fun. Vegeta is no longer so uptight that his pride is going to be destroyed by a few gags. I wish some of his fans could see it this way too.

In the end I have always loved Vegeta as character but it was because he continued to develop and change from arc to arc. I don't want him to go back to the way he was. Any going back would be digression and would completely miss the point of the changes Vegeta went through in DBZ. Of course I didn't really need another Dragon Ball series but it is wonderful to see the fruits of the development that happened in DBZ. And yes I get there was some in GT too but for me at least the moments in GT didn't stand out as much. In Super there has been so many wonderful moments for Vegeta's character I wouldn't even know where to start in naming my favorites.

[TBMx]

GT Vegeta stopped training, got almost no screentime, shaved off his iconic hairstyle, grew a ludicrous Freddie Mercury Mustache, can't go SS4 without being shot by a big and vulnerable machine which he himself blew up for no reason, and this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpRHH63qWaM

Ultimate progression of Vegeta's character? No. More like ultimate insult.

[BWri]

What do you guys think? Am I missing the point? Am I missing several points? I was just curious to see what other people thought about the topic.

You've made some really good points about Vegeta's development, points that I agree wholeheartedly with. I think you are missing something though at least from the way I see it. Most of the complaints I've seen about Vegeta's character development came at the start of the Universe Survival arc. Most of my own complaints with Vegeta's character comes from how he's acting in the ToP currently. Super has done a great job of showing a fully matured and intelligent Vegeta, who often times seems on par with Piccolo when it comes to strategy and keeping a level head, but ever since the start of this arc he's become this reckless half-baked version of himself that's too proud to accept teamwork tactics (unless he's working with Goku for some reason) and who refuses to fight with smarts and subterfuge which is a drastic change from how he fought on Namek. Sure Cell and Buu saga Vegeta was all about his pride, but he swallowed that to defeat a greater evil. Now that his universe is on the line, the universe with his family, he's acting far more prideful (to a goofy degree) than he's ever acted in his life. It's like the writer's at Super pick one character trait for someone and just push that to the moon, but that comes at the expense of their growth. Ex. Goku being so dumb, Vegeta's pride, Piccolo saving Gohan, etc.

[Chuquita]

Vegeta's been boring since February (though the seeds of it were planted during the Zamasu arc), he's only gotten somewhat better in recent episodes, but the writing for him is now all over the place instead. It makes me think they don't really have a role for him this arc.

I think my distaste for what they're doing with him is that I'm that rare fangirl who isn't into VegeBul. Oh I like Vegeta and Bulma as individual characters, but man they make a dull couple, or rather a type of stereotypical couple you find all over teen and young adult fiction.

Vegeta was fine for the first 3 arcs of Super, he was ok in the Zamasu arc, but now I feel like they want to retire him, but can't bring themselves to pull the trigger.

[BWri]

The main thing is that, while Vegeta has matured, he has also become boring and stale.

And while Goku has regressed, he has become more interesting. Without Goku, the entire series would be another slice-of-life TV show with old, boring characters.

Vegeta is no longer interesting. His character has ended, and will forever be Bulma's lapdog, Beerus' chew toy, etc.

What does he even add to the story anymore? He's just a 54 year old, stay at home dad, whose own wife relies on another man for protection, and is forever going through the same cycle of gaining a new transformation, getting jobbed, screaming "Kakarotto", then going back into the gravity chamber.

Vegeta used to be a daredevil. Now he's just a goody two-shoes, stay at home dad, forever destined to lick Bulma's feet while she belittles him to his face, and even to his son.

Vegeta's character was ruined, all to appease his horde of fangirls who fantasize about taming a bad boy.

without his drive to be the best, vegeta becomes piccolo and just as useful.

Literally the best post ever. I'm a Vegeta fan and the hanging out with Goku all the time rattled me the wrong way! He's the F'ing Prince of Saiyans, just because he has a development doesn't mean he doesn't think he's a noble elite. Vegeta acting like a commoner is disgusting.

You guys should all read my blog post about this. I predicted the decline of Vegeta's character a few years ago and got around to writing about it last year (http://belartscorner.blogspot.com/2016/ ... ma_70.html). In so many words, I basically just called Vegeta the new Piccolo (my favorite character btw). Now that he's been "de-fanged" like Piccolo was in Z, the show needs a new edgy rival, someone who actually poses a threat to Goku while teaming up with him to defeat a more threatening foe. That looks like it'll be Hit or more likely Frieza though I hope Frieza never becomes any more of a good guy than he is now.

[Generico Garbagio]

HI GUYS I WANT TO TALK ABOUT VEGETA TOO!!

I think I'm actually happy about how he's "grown" in Super. He's had nice moments, like when he ended up dominating Black - it was really awesome at that point that VEGETA was the one who was stronger. (Obviously that didn't last long)

I would hope his repeated visits in the ROSAT paid off like that again. I doubt that will happen in the ToP, which is sad. Why does Goku still surpass Vegeta at this point? Vegeta went into the ROSAT once more and still isn't stronger than Goku, who basically only fought the other team members for 2 minutes each and trained with Whis just enough to get to bite him.

So I guess it's the only thing I'm not really happy about, but meh. I don't really care. Vegeta is a great character, and he still has awesome moments. (Dodging Ribrianne because she's ugly) I don't mind him going on like that because I know he won't really become the strongest. GOKU IS MAIN CHARACTER DURRRR

Sometimes, characters (be it Vegeta, Goku, Krillin, Buu, Satan whatever) act a bit out of character, but I think throughout DB, DBZ and DBS, they are still consistent characters.

Also I don't talk about GT because it probably stands for "Gay Turd". I'm not saying homosexuality is wrong here but no matter who makes the poop, it shouldn't be consumed afterwards. Yuck.

P.S.: You guys should read my blog post about it: http://www.google.org.com.tv/.net/blogp ... lcountdown

[Lord Beerus]

I think Vegeta has been handled quite well in Super.

In second episode of Super, he actually pulled through with his promise to go to take Kid Trunks on a day out, even though he clearly wasn't enjoying it, he still persevered for as long as he could to make Trunks and Bulma happy. Throughout the Future Trunks arc he was constantly supportive of Future Trunks and even mentioned that he wasn't fighting for himself but for Future Trunks world. And then he flat out refused to train with Goku in order to be with his wife at all time while she was heavily pregnant really speaks volumes for how much the character has progressed from a period where he previously never hugged his son. He even wanted a more Saiyan-esque name form Bra and showed Trunks how to properly change her diaper.

I glad he hasn't remained the guy who also seemed to have a stick the size of Texas always stuck up his ass and just learnt that life is too shot to pissed, grumpy or condescending over everything and just settled down. The fact he's not perturbed at all by the wacky and goofy situations he may get himself into, like the escapade of the Copy Vegeta arc and the Arale episode, and the fact he's more than willing to humble himself, as shown with Beerus, just shows how much his character has grown.

Vegeta still a guy that can still occasionally get angry and/or frustrated in some scenarios, like when Goku pulled off the SSJB/Kaioken combination technique,
but quickly understands and accepts the fact that there some thing that Goku can do that he can't, doesn't angst and mentally stew over the whole deal and doesn't fly off the handle like he would have done many years ago. He is more than willing to express his love and care for his family from time to time and how much his friendship with Goku means to him. People may not be so keen on Vegeta being domesticated, but I enjoy seeing dad and supporting husband and actually being more outward with how much he wants to care for his family instead of being a tsundere twit about it like he was in the Majin Boo arc.

[Hakaishin Liquir]

The DBS writers don't know how to properly develop characters tbh. Sometimes they'll give characters moments which seem to show them growing and developing as characters, but then a few episodes later they'll start acting like a cheap caricature of their DBZ counterparts. For example, Vegeta got some good development during the BoG arc and FT arc, but now he's acting like Android Saga Vegeta.

[Boo Machine]

The DBS writers don't know how to properly develop characters tbh. Sometimes they'll give characters moments which seem to show them growing and developing as characters, but then a few episodes later they'll start acting like a cheap caricature of their DBZ counterparts. For example, Vegeta got some good development during the BoG arc and FT arc, but now he's acting like Android Saga Vegeta.

In the entirety of what's been happening in this current arc, I have yet to see Vegeta put anyone in danger just to stroke his ego, and then get pissy when it back fires. How is he like android saga Vegeta?

[Jigurashi]

What do you guys think? Am I missing the point? Am I missing several points? I was just curious to see what other people thought about the topic.

You've made some really good points about Vegeta's development, points that I agree wholeheartedly with. I think you are missing something though at least from the way I see it. Most of the complaints I've seen about Vegeta's character development came at the start of the Universe Survival arc. Most of my own complaints with Vegeta's character comes from how he's acting in the ToP currently. Super has done a great job of showing a fully matured and intelligent Vegeta, who often times seems on par with Piccolo when it comes to strategy and keeping a level head, but ever since the start of this arc he's become this reckless half-baked version of himself that's too proud to accept teamwork tactics (unless he's working with Goku for some reason) and who refuses to fight with smarts and subterfuge which is a drastic change from how he fought on Namek. Sure Cell and Buu saga Vegeta was all about his pride, but he swallowed that to defeat a greater evil. Now that his universe is on the line, the universe with his family, he's acting far more prideful (to a goofy degree) than he's ever acted in his life. It's like the writer's at Super pick one character trait for someone and just push that to the moon, but that comes at the expense of their growth. Ex. Goku being so dumb, Vegeta's pride, Piccolo saving Gohan, etc.

Even befor this saga, nothing gave off he was all that strategical in Super imo. He's rarely ever used tactics.