Piccolo vs potentially evil U6 Namekians

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HeroR
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Re: Piccolo vs potentially evil U6 Namekians

Post by HeroR » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:48 am

Lionel wrote:It would be easy to give Piccolo enough of a power hike for him to stand proudly amongst the top ranks once again. Just have him train with Whis behind the scenes, give him a potential unlock, plus equip him with Kaioken and you have a Super Namekian God who has a chance at maintaining consistent pace with the Saiyans. Kaioken was never explored in much depth, certainly not to the same degree as the Saiyan transformations were. If the Super Saiyan barrier can be frequently broken through then why can't the same idea apply to Kaioken? Goku already proved that it was possible when he normalised Kaioken usage and raised the multiplier from a maximum of x4 to x20 between the Saiyan and Freeza arcs. Greater Ki control should theoretically enable the user to maintain the Kaioken for longer periods of time and at higher levels. I would like to see if the Kaioken couldn't be raised to even greater plateaus like x50, x100, x200, ect.
Super Saiyan is a form, the Kaioken is a technique. They're not exactly the same especially since the Kaioken is far more dangerous to used that any form of Super Saiyan and even the person who invented the technique didn't master it.

As for training with Whis, why would Whis train Piccolo? Vegeta had to bribe Whis and Goku got in because he's special. That and it's hinted that Whis wants Goku to be the next God of Destruction. Piccolo has none of that going for him and Whis never showed interest in him. I don't think they even talked since Battle of Gods. Plus, training with Whis doesn't automatically mean you get god ki.

Unlock potential is limited for Piccolo since he always train so he wouldn't have a lot latent power to unlock and it was never stated Piccolo had a lot of 'potential' in the same way as Gohan or any Saiyan for that matter. So him having his potential unlock would probably be no more drastic than Krillin when he got his potential unlock.

Overall, Super already gave Piccolo a huge boost. In Resurrection 'F', he was weaker than base form Gohan and now he can strangle Super Saiyan 2 Gohan even after he got somewhat back in shape. It's just not enough to compete with base form Goku.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Piccolo vs potentially evil U6 Namekians

Post by Zeru14 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:58 am

BellBlitzKing wrote:Piccolo deserves a power-up. He has high potential for growth due to exceptional details in his origins:
  • 'Hidden Power' in lineage: Piccolo shares the spirit of the Nameless Namekian whom we are told was stronger than Frieza before his power level fell when he split into two beings. Further, the father of the Nameless Namekian was Katas, a Namekian genius whom Guru greatly respected and existed before the shift on Namek when they were far stronger overall.
  • Piccolo needs to hardness his Dragon Clan roots but he's also a fantastic Warrior who inherited wisdom, power and strength from his fusion with Kami. He needs to maximize on this.
  • Universe 6 secrets: the alternate Namek. Our U7 Namekians are weak. The huge climate shift wiped out much of the population, including their strongest Dragon Clan warriors, plus causing loss of knowledge/powers. As our twin universe, this might not have happened in Universe 6. Just like U6 Saiyans were not space pirates and evolved without tails. What would the Namekians be like without the climate shift extinction? They once had advanced tech/ships plus great strength. Using the Freeza-tier power of the Nameless Namekian as an example, they might have become more powerful as a race. Universe 6 Namek may be the result of this alternate path of history, meaning many secrets to be learned from a high tier of Namekians.
  • Ki Control is also his Key to power. SSJ Blue is about Ki control---letting none of it leak outside his body. Piccolo often does intense meditation, balancing his internal powers and energies. Both Jiren and Frieza are both shown using intense mental training and meditation, which can lead to power increases/controlled levels of Ki. Who else practices intense meditation, mental battles and Ki control----Piccolo can maximize on this just as Goku has many times before.
Its funny how the Nameless Namek's potential and the Super Namek class was hyped up by Toriyama, but he never did anything with them, at least not as much as he could have. Would've been nice for other characters to learn Kaioken, Piccolo definitely could, Namekians are prodigies at Ki Control and have strong durable bodies, so he could handle the technique and improve it over the years. It would be neat for Piccolo to learn something from the U6 Nameks, similar to how the U6 Saiyans learned the SSJ transformations from the U7 Saiyans.

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Re: Piccolo vs potentially evil U6 Namekians

Post by Lionel » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:54 am

HeroR wrote:
Lionel wrote:It would be easy to give Piccolo enough of a power hike for him to stand proudly amongst the top ranks once again. Just have him train with Whis behind the scenes, give him a potential unlock, plus equip him with Kaioken and you have a Super Namekian God who has a chance at maintaining consistent pace with the Saiyans. Kaioken was never explored in much depth, certainly not to the same degree as the Saiyan transformations were. If the Super Saiyan barrier can be frequently broken through then why can't the same idea apply to Kaioken? Goku already proved that it was possible when he normalised Kaioken usage and raised the multiplier from a maximum of x4 to x20 between the Saiyan and Freeza arcs. Greater Ki control should theoretically enable the user to maintain the Kaioken for longer periods of time and at higher levels. I would like to see if the Kaioken couldn't be raised to even greater plateaus like x50, x100, x200, ect.
Super Saiyan is a form, the Kaioken is a technique. They're not exactly the same especially since the Kaioken is far more dangerous to used that any form of Super Saiyan and even the person who invented the technique didn't master it.

As for training with Whis, why would Whis train Piccolo? Vegeta had to bribe Whis and Goku got in because he's special. That and it's hinted that Whis wants Goku to be the next God of Destruction. Piccolo has none of that going for him and Whis never showed interest in him. I don't think they even talked since Battle of Gods. Plus, training with Whis doesn't automatically mean you get god ki.

Unlock potential is limited for Piccolo since he always train so he wouldn't have a lot latent power to unlock and it was never stated Piccolo had a lot of 'potential' in the same way as Gohan or any Saiyan for that matter. So him having his potential unlock would probably be no more drastic than Krillin when he got his potential unlock.

Overall, Super already gave Piccolo a huge boost. In Resurrection 'F', he was weaker than base form Gohan and now he can strangle Super Saiyan 2 Gohan even after he got somewhat back in shape. It's just not enough to compete with base form Goku.
Kaioken being a technique adds to the flexibility of its mechanics. Rather than being inexplicably given more forms than almost all other known species combined, it can be more plausibly tinkered with to lessen the strain and lengthen the duration of each burst without tacking on form after form after form. We didn't hear of any significant stamina loss or physical stress when Goku used basic Kaioken multipliers like x1 and eventually x10. It was only the higher multipliers that began to damage his body. Goku proved it could be maintainable during his fight with Hit. I don't see why the likes of Piccolo couldn't master the technique and then improve upon it, what with him being a "genius" and all.

Piccolo happens to be the prodigy child of Katas -- i.e a genius Namekian who's offspring exhibited a knack for both fighting and magic. Whis saw firsthand what he was capable of when he managed to outmanoeuvre Frost despite being at a disadvantage in strength. The fight would have been won had it not been Frost's illicit weapon usage. Besides his clever utilisation of feints and ensnarement, Piccolo has shown surprising developmental growth over the years of the original manga barring the Buu arc sadly. If anything, Piccolo would make for a more interesting pupil than Vegeta as he happens to possess the knowledge of a former god plus he hails from an ancient culture that managed to create its own offshoot of the original Super Dragon Balls, the only species to have done so, and conceive the Namekian Book of Legends which helped inform everyone about the existence of the Super Saiyan God in the first place. If that's not enough to persuade Whis then Piccolo could always provide some food using his materialisation sorcery.

Continual training didn't seem to hinder Goku when he drank the Choshinsui to go from being less than half of Piccolo Daimao's power to equaling him -- there's also Krillin having his potential unlocked by the Grand Elder of Namek after having spent the last year training rigorously to increase his power more than any previous point in his life at the time. Krillin's increase continued after the initial spike which ultimately left him at 75,000 by the end of the Freeza arc supposedly. I don't see why Piccolo's strength couldn't grow exponentially as well, especially since Elder Kaioshin's magic is stated to raise the recipient's power far beyond its limits; with a ritual like that after coming off fresh from Whis training he might even temporarily overtake the Saiyans. Kaioken afterwards could allow him to maintain a steady pace with them.

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Re: Piccolo vs potentially evil U6 Namekians

Post by HeroR » Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:24 am

Lionel wrote:
Kaioken being a technique adds to the flexibility of its mechanics. Rather than being inexplicably given more forms than almost all other known species combined, it can be more plausibly tinkered with to lessen the strain and lengthen the duration of each burst without tacking on form after form after form. We didn't hear of any significant stamina loss or physical stress when Goku used basic Kaioken multipliers like x1 and eventually x10. It was only the higher multipliers that began to damage his body. Goku proved it could be maintainable during his fight with Hit. I don't see why the likes of Piccolo couldn't master the technique and then improve upon it, what with him being a "genius" and all.

Piccolo happens to be the prodigy child of Katas -- i.e a genius Namekian who's offspring exhibited a knack for both fighting and magic. Whis saw firsthand what he was capable of when he managed to outmanoeuvre Frost despite being at a disadvantage in strength. The fight would have been won had it not been Frost's illicit weapon usage. Besides his clever utilisation of feints and ensnarement, Piccolo has shown surprising developmental growth over the years of the original manga barring the Buu arc sadly. If anything, Piccolo would make for a more interesting pupil than Vegeta as he happens to possess the knowledge of a former god plus he hails from an ancient culture that managed to create its own offshoot of the original Super Dragon Balls, the only species to have done so, and conceive the Namekian Book of Legends which helped inform everyone about the existence of the Super Saiyan God in the first place. If that's not enough to persuade Whis then Piccolo could always provide some food using his materialisation sorcery.

Continual training didn't seem to hinder Goku when he drank the Choshinsui to go from being less than half of Piccolo Daimao's power to equaling him -- there's also Krillin having his potential unlocked by the Grand Elder of Namek after having spent the last year training rigorously to increase his power more than any previous point in his life at the time. Krillin's increase continued after the initial spike which ultimately left him at 75,000 by the end of the Freeza arc supposedly. I don't see why Piccolo's strength couldn't grow exponentially as well, especially since Elder Kaioshin's magic is stated to raise the recipient's power far beyond its limits; with a ritual like that after coming off fresh from Whis training he might even temporarily overtake the Saiyans. Kaioken afterwards could allow him to maintain a steady pace with them.
Problem is, Goku never lessened the strain of the Kaioken. He can still overdo it and cause major harm to his body. He just got stronger and able to maintain it better to get a higher multiplier. Even in the Freeza Saga, Goku had to used the Kaioken in short bursts. It was only in Super than he's able to maintain the Kaioken for longer and he still needs to be careful otherwise he could hurt himself.

Plus, Piccolo isn't Goku. None of Piccolo's techniques stresses his body like the Kaioken, so it's a guess that Piccolo can master it the same way as Goku. Also, we have never seen Piccolo 'improve' on other people's techniques or even his own for that matter. Even a genius like Goku never invented his own techniques outside of the move he used to kill King Piccolo and its spiritual successor the Dragon Fist. So just because Piccolo is a battle genius doesn't mean he improves everything he touches, especially when Piccolo has no history of it.

And, my point still stands. Whis saw Piccolo fight Beerus and Frost, yet never made any comment about him. Beerus also made no note of Piccolo despite him giving Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks a 'he's pretty good' comment and had no problem with Vegeta bullying Piccolo out of the first tournament. Telling me Piccolo's history really doesn't change my statement that Whis never showed an interest in him and if Whis was a real person, you could give this list to him. It should also be noted that Whis never showed an interest in Gohan despite him being Goku's son with far more inner strength than his father. Even with sensing Gohan's performance in Episode 90, which was rapid growth, Whis still doesn't care for him and Beerus keep calling Gohan 'Goku's son'. So it's hard to see Whis being impressed with Piccolo when he doesn't even give Gohan a second look. Out of the entire case, Whis only really expressed interest in Goku and Vegeta to a lesser extent after he bribed him.

Goku drank poison and given how Saiyans get stronger from near death, the Super Divine Water can easily been seen in retrospect as Goku getting a near-death boost and not so much getting his power unlocked. And in the grand scheme of things, the power boost wasn't that dramatic, just like how Krillin got stronger from having his power unlock, but it wasn't like the power boost Gohan got from Elder Kai. Plus, Piccolo trained a heck of a lot more and harder than Krillin and even kid Goku. So if Piccolo did get his power unlock or something, I can see it pushing Goku to used Super Saiyan or something, but not such a drastic boost that he can fight equally with 17 as he is now.

As Piccolo pointed out back in the Champa Saga, no amount of training would allow him to keep up with Goku and Vegeta. He didn't even try.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Piccolo vs potentially evil U6 Namekians

Post by namekiansaiyan » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:12 am

HeroR wrote:
Lionel wrote:
Kaioken being a technique adds to the flexibility of its mechanics. Rather than being inexplicably given more forms than almost all other known species combined, it can be more plausibly tinkered with to lessen the strain and lengthen the duration of each burst without tacking on form after form after form. We didn't hear of any significant stamina loss or physical stress when Goku used basic Kaioken multipliers like x1 and eventually x10. It was only the higher multipliers that began to damage his body. Goku proved it could be maintainable during his fight with Hit. I don't see why the likes of Piccolo couldn't master the technique and then improve upon it, what with him being a "genius" and all.

Piccolo happens to be the prodigy child of Katas -- i.e a genius Namekian who's offspring exhibited a knack for both fighting and magic. Whis saw firsthand what he was capable of when he managed to outmanoeuvre Frost despite being at a disadvantage in strength. The fight would have been won had it not been Frost's illicit weapon usage. Besides his clever utilisation of feints and ensnarement, Piccolo has shown surprising developmental growth over the years of the original manga barring the Buu arc sadly. If anything, Piccolo would make for a more interesting pupil than Vegeta as he happens to possess the knowledge of a former god plus he hails from an ancient culture that managed to create its own offshoot of the original Super Dragon Balls, the only species to have done so, and conceive the Namekian Book of Legends which helped inform everyone about the existence of the Super Saiyan God in the first place. If that's not enough to persuade Whis then Piccolo could always provide some food using his materialisation sorcery.

Continual training didn't seem to hinder Goku when he drank the Choshinsui to go from being less than half of Piccolo Daimao's power to equaling him -- there's also Krillin having his potential unlocked by the Grand Elder of Namek after having spent the last year training rigorously to increase his power more than any previous point in his life at the time. Krillin's increase continued after the initial spike which ultimately left him at 75,000 by the end of the Freeza arc supposedly. I don't see why Piccolo's strength couldn't grow exponentially as well, especially since Elder Kaioshin's magic is stated to raise the recipient's power far beyond its limits; with a ritual like that after coming off fresh from Whis training he might even temporarily overtake the Saiyans. Kaioken afterwards could allow him to maintain a steady pace with them.
Problem is, Goku never lessened the strain of the Kaioken. He can still overdo it and cause major harm to his body. He just got stronger and able to maintain it better to get a higher multiplier. Even in the Freeza Saga, Goku had to used the Kaioken in short bursts. It was only in Super than he's able to maintain the Kaioken for longer and he still needs to be careful otherwise he could hurt himself.

Plus, Piccolo isn't Goku. None of Piccolo's techniques stresses his body like the Kaioken, so it's a guess that Piccolo can master it the same way as Goku. Also, we have never seen Piccolo 'improve' on other people's techniques or even his own for that matter. Even a genius like Goku never invented his own techniques outside of the move he used to kill King Piccolo and its spiritual successor the Dragon Fist. So just because Piccolo is a battle genius doesn't mean he improves everything he touches, especially when Piccolo has no history of it.

And, my point still stands. Whis saw Piccolo fight Beerus and Frost, yet never made any comment about him. Beerus also made no note of Piccolo despite him giving Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks a 'he's pretty good' comment and had no problem with Vegeta bullying Piccolo out of the first tournament. Telling me Piccolo's history really doesn't change my statement that Whis never showed an interest in him and if Whis was a real person, you could give this list to him. It should also be noted that Whis never showed an interest in Gohan despite him being Goku's son with far more inner strength than his father. Even with sensing Gohan's performance in Episode 90, which was rapid growth, Whis still doesn't care for him and Beerus keep calling Gohan 'Goku's son'. So it's hard to see Whis being impressed with Piccolo when he doesn't even give Gohan a second look. Out of the entire case, Whis only really expressed interest in Goku and Vegeta to a lesser extent after he bribed him.

Goku drank poison and given how Saiyans get stronger from near death, the Super Divine Water can easily been seen in retrospect as Goku getting a near-death boost and not so much getting his power unlocked. And in the grand scheme of things, the power boost wasn't that dramatic, just like how Krillin got stronger from having his power unlock, but it wasn't like the power boost Gohan got from Elder Kai. Plus, Piccolo trained a heck of a lot more and harder than Krillin and even kid Goku. So if Piccolo did get his power unlock or something, I can see it pushing Goku to used Super Saiyan or something, but not such a drastic boost that he can fight equally with 17 as he is now.

As Piccolo pointed out back in the Champa Saga, no amount of training would allow him to keep up with Goku and Vegeta. He didn't even try.
Transformations are the only reasons these Saiyans are so strong and just becuase Namekians have not got one yet it does not mean there is not a transformation in Universe 6 and why do people already forget that Universe 6 Saiyans never had a transfromation.

Toriyama has created 2 Namekians so a power up should be staring him right in the face.

Since the reveal of the Namekians the negativity towards Piccolo has increased for some reason but I bet if they were 2 Saiyans or any other race and were hidden until 6 episodes in the tournament then the fanbased would be extremely hyped.

Champa seems to rate Piccolo very highly as he went and got 2 Namekians for his team so why wouldn't Beerus rate Piccolo.

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Re: Piccolo vs potentially evil U6 Namekians

Post by HeroR » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:30 am

namekiansaiyan wrote:
Transformations are the only reasons these Saiyans are so strong and just becuase Namekians have not got one yet it does not mean there is not a transformation in Universe 6 and why do people already forget that Universe 6 Saiyans never had a transfromation.

Toriyama has created 2 Namekians so a power up should be staring him right in the face.

Champa seems to rate Piccolo very highly as he went and got 2 Namekians for his team so why wouldn't Beerus rate Piccolo.
That isn't really true given how strong the Saiyans' base forms have become recently. I also don't really see Namekians getting a transformation since in general, most of the new characters don't transform. Frost is part of Freeza's race who can transform and Cabbi, Cali, and Kale are Saiyans and Black was Zamasu in Goku's body. I am not saying that Namekians won't have forms, Super has done odd stuff before, I just don't see it since Toriyama for the most part have been moving away from giving new characters new transformations.

Well, Toriyama created several Saiyans and even a Freeza race character, yet a new power-up hasn't happened, unless we're going to count Super Saiyan Berserk. I mean, it's the opposite where U7 had to tell them about the transformations.

We could also argue that he was desperate since he wanted Hit's siblings and more Saiyans.

Either way, we won't know what will happen until it does since I'm honestly 50/50.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Piccolo vs potentially evil U6 Namekians

Post by Lionel » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:36 am

HeroR wrote:
Lionel wrote:
Kaioken being a technique adds to the flexibility of its mechanics. Rather than being inexplicably given more forms than almost all other known species combined, it can be more plausibly tinkered with to lessen the strain and lengthen the duration of each burst without tacking on form after form after form. We didn't hear of any significant stamina loss or physical stress when Goku used basic Kaioken multipliers like x1 and eventually x10. It was only the higher multipliers that began to damage his body. Goku proved it could be maintainable during his fight with Hit. I don't see why the likes of Piccolo couldn't master the technique and then improve upon it, what with him being a "genius" and all.

Piccolo happens to be the prodigy child of Katas -- i.e a genius Namekian who's offspring exhibited a knack for both fighting and magic. Whis saw firsthand what he was capable of when he managed to outmanoeuvre Frost despite being at a disadvantage in strength. The fight would have been won had it not been Frost's illicit weapon usage. Besides his clever utilisation of feints and ensnarement, Piccolo has shown surprising developmental growth over the years of the original manga barring the Buu arc sadly. If anything, Piccolo would make for a more interesting pupil than Vegeta as he happens to possess the knowledge of a former god plus he hails from an ancient culture that managed to create its own offshoot of the original Super Dragon Balls, the only species to have done so, and conceive the Namekian Book of Legends which helped inform everyone about the existence of the Super Saiyan God in the first place. If that's not enough to persuade Whis then Piccolo could always provide some food using his materialisation sorcery.

Continual training didn't seem to hinder Goku when he drank the Choshinsui to go from being less than half of Piccolo Daimao's power to equaling him -- there's also Krillin having his potential unlocked by the Grand Elder of Namek after having spent the last year training rigorously to increase his power more than any previous point in his life at the time. Krillin's increase continued after the initial spike which ultimately left him at 75,000 by the end of the Freeza arc supposedly. I don't see why Piccolo's strength couldn't grow exponentially as well, especially since Elder Kaioshin's magic is stated to raise the recipient's power far beyond its limits; with a ritual like that after coming off fresh from Whis training he might even temporarily overtake the Saiyans. Kaioken afterwards could allow him to maintain a steady pace with them.
Problem is, Goku never lessened the strain of the Kaioken. He can still overdo it and cause major harm to his body. He just got stronger and able to maintain it better to get a higher multiplier. Even in the Freeza Saga, Goku had to used the Kaioken in short bursts. It was only in Super than he's able to maintain the Kaioken for longer and he still needs to be careful otherwise he could hurt himself.

Plus, Piccolo isn't Goku. None of Piccolo's techniques stresses his body like the Kaioken, so it's a guess that Piccolo can master it the same way as Goku. Also, we have never seen Piccolo 'improve' on other people's techniques or even his own for that matter. Even a genius like Goku never invented his own techniques outside of the move he used to kill King Piccolo and its spiritual successor the Dragon Fist. So just because Piccolo is a battle genius doesn't mean he improves everything he touches, especially when Piccolo has no history of it.

And, my point still stands. Whis saw Piccolo fight Beerus and Frost, yet never made any comment about him. Beerus also made no note of Piccolo despite him giving Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks a 'he's pretty good' comment and had no problem with Vegeta bullying Piccolo out of the first tournament. Telling me Piccolo's history really doesn't change my statement that Whis never showed an interest in him and if Whis was a real person, you could give this list to him. It should also be noted that Whis never showed an interest in Gohan despite him being Goku's son with far more inner strength than his father. Even with sensing Gohan's performance in Episode 90, which was rapid growth, Whis still doesn't care for him and Beerus keep calling Gohan 'Goku's son'. So it's hard to see Whis being impressed with Piccolo when he doesn't even give Gohan a second look. Out of the entire case, Whis only really expressed interest in Goku and Vegeta to a lesser extent after he bribed him.

Goku drank poison and given how Saiyans get stronger from near death, the Super Divine Water can easily been seen in retrospect as Goku getting a near-death boost and not so much getting his power unlocked. And in the grand scheme of things, the power boost wasn't that dramatic, just like how Krillin got stronger from having his power unlock, but it wasn't like the power boost Gohan got from Elder Kai. Plus, Piccolo trained a heck of a lot more and harder than Krillin and even kid Goku.

As Piccolo pointed out back in the Champa Saga, no amount of training would allow him to keep up with Goku and Vegeta. He didn't even try.
When Goku initially raised the multiplier of the Kaioken to x3 and 4, it shredded his internal body to the point any external contact became agonising for him. Fast forward to the battle with Freeza and he's augmenting himself with a x10 multiplier with no expressed discomfort or overexertion. It wasn't perceived as a double-edged gamble like the Kaioken x20 was; interestingly enough, that multiplier didn't appear to tear apart Goku's muscle structure like the x4 did back when fighting Vegeta. I would say that constitutes as him having mitigated the strain as he would have otherwise maimed himself entirely if the mechanics of his first real usage of the technique back during the Saiyan arc was unalterably applied to his Kaioken usage in the Freeza arc. Oh, and for what it's worth, he did hold the Kaioken for multiple pages in the original manga. How this applies to Piccolo is, well, we know he regenerated from his body being shattered into pieces with no substantial power loss noted like with Nail or Cell. Compared with his first display of regeneration where reforming an arm proved tiring for him, this is very impressive and it alludes to him lessening the effort required to regenerate; a principal that could hopefully be applied to Kaioken. Piccolo is more creative with techniques as he was able to formulate the Special Beam Cannon whereas most of Goku's originality stems from him creating variations of techniques he learned.

You're right. Whis didn't make any particular note of Piccolo throughout the tournament. Gohan also seems to be neglected as a prospective student. Why is this? I don't see any rational justification for him neglecting to consider either of these two when he should be aware of what they're capable of. I hold Toriyama and Toei responsible for this inane negligence because if they tried to give some valid recognition of their talents, backgrounds and potential it would signal to the audience that something more should be expected of them in the long-term context like Vegeta received. Both creative groups have no intention of making any commitments to those characters in the foreseeable future. Maybe they feel Gohan and Piccolo wouldn't sell all that well in terms of merchandise and promotional content for the franchise. Goku and Vegeta are the most popular characters of the show.

I doubt it. Not even Vegeta's first in-manga zenkai doubled his power and he was dimensions ahead of the Goku who drank the Choshinsui. For Goku to trade equal blows with Daimao in his prime after being felled by a much older version of the Namekian who admitted to using less than half of his power would suggest Goku gained a substantial power increase that multiplied his original strength, at least for that particular era. Afterwards during the Freeza arc, Krillin and Gohan were both calculated to have surpassed 10,000 by Jeice. Gohan's power wasn't singled out as being considerably greater than Krillin's at the time. It was only through subsequent zenkais that a gap between their powers began to form. Not that any of this should pose a hindrance for Piccolo. One of Dragon Ball's core thematical ideas is overcoming your limits and reaching new heights. Every major character has accomplished this through training and some ingenuity. Piccolo shouldn't be any different.

Piccolo didn't say that; he described training with Goku and Vegeta as being too much, not that it's impossible for him to attain the same level of power. Both Saiyans have the advantage of coming equipped with multiple transformations and God Ki. The power scaling in this series is so warped that Toei's writing staff believed Piccolo to just be comparable with a Base Gohan who has been deteriorating in power for years now. What kind of travesty is that? Piccolo never slackened in his training. Say what you will about the effectiveness of his methods, he didn't retire from training though. I'm also incredulous about the lack of hindsight in Toei. We already saw Piccolo training with an SSJ Goku who was dimensions apart from him in a manga cover. How would this situation be any different? I feel this hearkens back to what was mentioned previously about lack of authorial willingness to invest in Piccolo being the root cause for his lack of participation in the heavy training more than some inherent impotence on the part of the character.
Last edited by Lionel on Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Piccolo vs potentially evil U6 Namekians

Post by namekiansaiyan » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:41 am

HeroR wrote:
We could also argue that he was desperate since he wanted Hit's siblings and more Saiyans.
The Hit line was obviously a joke and getting at least 1 more Saiyan was obvious. If he said he wanted Namekians it would ruin the surprise reveal in episode 102 which was suppose to be a 'What the heck' moment and was the point of the Zeno going through the teams on the tablet.

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Re: Piccolo vs potentially evil U6 Namekians

Post by HeroR » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:17 am

Lionel wrote:
When Goku initially raised the multiplier of the Kaioken to x3 and 4, it shredded his internal body to the point any external contact became agonising for him. Fast forward to the battle with Freeza and he's augmenting himself with a x10 multiplier with no expressed discomfort or overexertion. It wasn't perceived as a double-edged gamble like the Kaioken x20 was; interestingly enough, that multiplier didn't appear to tear apart Goku's muscle structure like the x4 did back when fighting Vegeta. I would say that constitutes as him having mitigated the strain as he would have otherwise maimed himself entirely if the mechanics of his first real usage of the technique back during the Saiyan arc was unalterably applied to his Kaioken usage in the Freeza arc. Oh, and for what it's worth, he did hold the Kaioken for multiple pages in the original manga. How this applies to Piccolo is, well, we know he regenerated from his body being shattered into pieces with no substantial power loss noted like with Nail or Cell. Compared with his first display of regeneration where reforming an arm proved tiring for him, this is very impressive and it alludes to him lessening the effort required to regenerate; a principal that could hopefully be applied to Kaioken. Piccolo is more creative with techniques as he was able to formulate the Special Beam Cannon whereas most of Goku's originality stems from him creating variations of techniques he learned.

You're right. Whis didn't make any particular note of Piccolo throughout the tournament. Gohan also seems to be neglected as a prospective student. Why is this? I don't see any rational justification for him neglecting to consider either of these two when he should be aware of what they're capable of. I hold Toriyama and Toei responsible for this inane negligence because if they tried to give some valid recognition of their talents, backgrounds and potential it would signal to the audience that something more should be expected of them in the long-term context like Vegeta received. Both creative groups have no intention of making any commitments to those characters in the foreseeable future. Maybe they feel Gohan and Piccolo wouldn't sell all that well in terms of merchandise and promotional content for the franchise. Goku and Vegeta are the most popular characters of the show.

I doubt it. Not even Vegeta's first in-manga zenkai doubled his power and he was dimensions ahead of the Goku who drank the Choshinsui. For Goku to trade equal blows with Daimao in his prime after being felled by a much older version of the Namekian who admitted to using less than half of his power would suggest Goku gained a substantial power increase that multiplied his original strength, at least for that particular era. Afterwards during the Freeza arc, Krillin and Gohan were both calculated to have surpassed 10,000 by Jeice. Gohan's power wasn't singled out as being considerably greater than Krillin's at the time. It was only through subsequent zenkais that a gap between their powers began to form. Not that any of this should pose a hindrance for Piccolo. One of Dragon Ball's core thematical ideas is overcoming your limits and reaching new heights. Every major character has accomplished this through training and some ingenuity. Piccolo shouldn't be any different.

Piccolo didn't say that; he described training with Goku and Vegeta as being too much, not that it's impossible for him to attain the same level of power. Both Saiyans have the advantage of coming equipped with multiple transformations and God Ki. The power scaling in this series is so warped that Toei's writing staff believed Piccolo to just be comparable with a Base Gohan who has been deteriorating in power for years now. What kind of travesty is that? Piccolo never slackened in his training. Say what you will about the effectiveness of his methods, he didn't retire from training though. I'm also incredulous about the lack of hindsight in Toei. We already saw Piccolo training with an SSJ Goku who was dimensions apart from him in a manga cover. How would this situation be any different? I feel this hearkens back to what was mentioned previously about lack of authorial willingness to invest in Piccolo being the root cause for his lack of participation in the heavy training more than some inherent impotence on the part of the character.
As I said, Goku himself got stronger and strengthen his body, which is why his body no longer comes close to exploding when he uses the Kaioken x2 during the Namek Saga. He also only used Kaioken in short bursts, compared to when he used Kaioken x3 against Vegeta. As for Piccolo, maybe he can maintain the Kaioken better than Goku for the reasons you named and I wouldn't be surprise if that was the case. The problem is I had with your original statement is that you claimed that since Piccolo was a genius he could learn and improved the Kaioken. He is a genius, but he has never been shown learning other people's techniques and improving them, just like Goku has never really created his own techniques despite also being a genius. So we can't just say someone has this certain skill because they're a genius, even if Dragon Ball is a simple show. I also wouldn't say Piccolo is more creative since his techniques are actually quite straightforward compared to some of the stuff Goku pulled like having several different version of the Kamehameha, even if he didn't originally invent it.

Whis seems extremely picky about his students. As I said, he didn't originally want Vegeta, he had to be bride. Goku was the only one he took without any question and it's hinted that the reason why is because he wants Goku to replaced Beerus. And, I hate to say this, Toriyama haven't recognition Piccolo's talents, backgrounds, and potential since he merged with Kami. After that, Piccolo's talents is almost never mentioned outside of him being a great teacher and clever. He became the poster child of skill over power. As for Gohan, the show made it a point to tell us that for all of Gohan's talent, he doesn't have a warrior's heart and that in the end he will always fall short of his father because of it. Maybe Whis sense this and knows that Gohan may start strong with his training, but will tapper out after awhile. And I doubt it's about merchandise since Gohan is number three and Piccolo is almost always in the top ten. So I don't think merchandise is as important as you think.

Given how weak Goku was in Dragon Ball, doubling his power isn't that big of an increase. Remember for all the stuff Goku went through in Dragon Ball, his power level after meeting Raditz was only a little over 400. I believe Gohan was 18,000 after he got his power awoke. And Gohan was singled out as being considerably greater by Vegeta since he thought Gohan was Goku after he got his power unlocked and Vegeta would know Goku would be over 10,000 after he healed from their battle. My point about unlocking power is that in most cases, it isn't as dramatic or game changing like when Gohan got his power unlocked.

If it was possible for Piccolo to catch the Saiyans, I think he would have done it. When have Piccolo back down if something was simply 'too much'? This is the same person who trained with Super Saiyan Goku for three years for the androids and Goku usually train in his base form anyway so Piccolo wouldn't have to worry about Goku transforming and kicking his ass. Not like he ever did since again, he trained with Super Saiyan Goku for three years.

Also, "Toei's writing staff believed Piccolo to just be comparable with a Base Gohan who has been deteriorating in power for years now". That wasn't Toei, that was Toriyama. He's the way who made Piccolo weaker compared to a rusty Gohan and this has always been the case with Gohan. Gohan didn't train for seven years, yet Tien another character who keep training get left in the dust. Heck, Tien is stated to be weaker than Krillin who also didn't train for a number of years. So this is hardly just Piccolo's problem. And again, this isn't Toei, that's Toriyama who decided that Piccolo wasn't going to train with Goku and Vegeta since he didn't do it in the Super manga either. In fact, I think Manga Piccolo said more or less the same thing as Anime Piccolo.

And if you're looking for an out of universe reason why Piccolo is not more important, it's the same reason why Gohan wasn't important until recently. He isn't important to the story and when he does become important he gets a boost. So far, Piccolo's role is the mentor figure to Gohan and him using skill to overcome raw power. That is his role until Toriyama decides to do something more with him. Even then, Piccolo got a huge boost this arc as we saw in Episode 88. He's only weak when compared to base form Goku who's ungodly strong even without transforming.

In-Universe explanation, the Namekians are strong, but are more limited compared to the Saiyans in terms of pure strength. It's the same reason why the humans are laughably weak despite if the story wanted to, they could power them up to.
namekiansaiyan wrote:
HeroR wrote:
We could also argue that he was desperate since he wanted Hit's siblings and more Saiyans.
The Hit line was obviously a joke and getting at least 1 more Saiyan was obvious. If he said he wanted Namekians it would ruin the surprise reveal in episode 102 which was suppose to be a 'What the heck' moment and was the point of the Zeno going through the teams on the tablet.
The scene was played as a joke, but Champa was serious. And said 'more' Saiyans, not just one more Saiyan. Ones that were stronger than Cabba specifically. Champa even wanted Frost back despite the BS he pulled at the last tournament, showing that he's indeed despite for anyone with strength. As for 'ruining' the surprise, the Namekians were revealed with no fanfare on a GodPad. The show didn't even play it as shock value, more like 'this is U6's team let's move on'. You want 'shock' value, look at Frost's introduction if you didn't read the spoilers before hand.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Piccolo vs potentially evil U6 Namekians

Post by namekiansaiyan » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:34 am

HeroR wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:
HeroR wrote:
We could also argue that he was desperate since he wanted Hit's siblings and more Saiyans.
The Hit line was obviously a joke and getting at least 1 more Saiyan was obvious. If he said he wanted Namekians it would ruin the surprise reveal in episode 102 which was suppose to be a 'What the heck' moment and was the point of the Zeno going through the teams on the tablet.
The scene was played as a joke, but Champa was serious. And said 'more' Saiyans, not just one more Saiyan. Ones that were stronger than Cabba specifically. Champa even wanted Frost back despite the BS he pulled at the last tournament, showing that he's indeed despite for anyone with strength. As for 'ruining' the surprise, the Namekians were revealed with no fanfare on a GodPad. The show didn't even play it as shock value, more like 'this is U6's team let's move on'. You want 'shock' value, look at Frost's introduction if you didn't read the spoilers before hand.
Champa getting more Saiyans was obvious once it was announced it was 10 members is what I meant.

If they were not playing for a surprise factor why didn't they just reveal the Namekians fully in episode 96 but they showed us Dr Rota. Goku mentioned the Yardrat but no one mentioned the Namekians at all which was obviously done by Toei on purpose.

Some people didn't even see them in both episode 102 and 103 as I read comments after episode 103 from people who watched it and didn't realise there was Namekians shown.

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Re: Piccolo vs potentially evil U6 Namekians

Post by HeroR » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:38 am

namekiansaiyan wrote:
Champa getting more Saiyans was obvious once it was announced it was 10 members is what I meant.

If they were not playing for a surprise factor why didn't they just reveal the Namekians fully in episode 96 but they showed us Dr Rota. Goku mentioned the Yardrat but no one mentioned the Namekians at all which was obviously done by Toei on purpose.

Some people didn't even see them in both episode 102 and 103 as I read comments after episode 103 from people who watched it and didn't realise there was Namekians shown.
Geting 'a' new Saiyans true. But people were shocked when we got two and they were females, even if one was a homage to Broly.

No one mentioning the Namekians is exactly why the shocked factor is questionable since revealing their pictures on a GodPad doesn't build hype and makes you wonder why Piccolo didn't acknowledged them. Like, couldn't he see or sense his own people? The pure lack of recognizing is almost anti-hype.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Piccolo vs potentially evil U6 Namekians

Post by namekiansaiyan » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:00 am

HeroR wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:
Champa getting more Saiyans was obvious once it was announced it was 10 members is what I meant.

If they were not playing for a surprise factor why didn't they just reveal the Namekians fully in episode 96 but they showed us Dr Rota. Goku mentioned the Yardrat but no one mentioned the Namekians at all which was obviously done by Toei on purpose.

Some people didn't even see them in both episode 102 and 103 as I read comments after episode 103 from people who watched it and didn't realise there was Namekians shown.
Geting 'a' new Saiyans true. But people were shocked when we got two and they were females, even if one was a homage to Broly.

No one mentioning the Namekians is exactly why the shocked factor is questionable since revealing their pictures on a GodPad doesn't build hype and makes you wonder why Piccolo didn't acknowledged them. Like, couldn't he see or sense his own people? The pure lack of recognizing is almost anti-hype.
That is what I mean, they could obviously see them but Toei gave no comment not even a joke comment like Krillin or Goku saying that Namekian looks exactly like you Piccolo. It was complete silence and when they show characters in the background as they have when something serious happens we have not seen them at all. Surely you must find this a bit weird as well.

I would not be as excited if they did not look like Piccolo and Slug and I find it hard to believe that the Namekians will both show up in one episode, provide no information and then both be knocked out by the end. I see the most likely situation to be that Piccolo fights the Slug one first and then fights his lookalike later on towards the end of the tournament.

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