What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by MainJPW » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:53 am

Basako wrote:
Tenshinhan's Kikoho with Cell was totally a feat, it wasn't an attack that failed, he held Cell so 18 and 16 could escape, which is what he intended to do and no one else could have done that, not even Goku. It's not like when Krilin attacked Cell, that meant nothing and he never attacked Boo.
But how are they comparable? Not only are Energy attacks ≠ Physical strikes but if the Shin Kikoho can accomplish something even Goku can't then why isn't it just a feat for the technique rather than the user? The only way we could know for certain that scene makes him stronger than Kuririn or anyone else we'd have to see them use that same technique on Semi Perfect Cell and then compare the results. The Shin Kikoho is just an incredibly potent attack.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by Basako » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:27 am

MainJPW wrote:
Basako wrote:
Tenshinhan's Kikoho with Cell was totally a feat, it wasn't an attack that failed, he held Cell so 18 and 16 could escape, which is what he intended to do and no one else could have done that, not even Goku. It's not like when Krilin attacked Cell, that meant nothing and he never attacked Boo.
But how are they comparable? Not only are Energy attacks ≠ Physical strikes but if the Shin Kikoho can accomplish something even Goku can't then why isn't it just a feat for the technique rather than the user? The only way we could know for certain that scene makes him stronger than Kuririn or anyone else we'd have to see them use that same technique on Semi Perfect Cell and then compare the results. The Shin Kikoho is just an incredibly potent attack.
I compared what their attacks accomplished, which Krillin against Cell did nothing and I just did it because the one I was responding said they were the same. Sorry, but no way.

Obviously the nature of the attacks is to be considered and I'm doing so. Tenshinhan's Kikoho is an attack that sacrificing his own life force is able to hold an enemy that no SS attack at the time could hold, they couldn't even with the androids and first form Cell was already above them, this was the second. I was just saying what Tenshinhan did was a feat, I wasn't arguing about PL in that paragraph, I just did that in the last one.
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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by The Saiyan Royal » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:19 am

IMO Toriyama/TOEI wasted Tien's potential. I thought this arc the weaker characters like Roshi, Krillin, Tien, Piccolo could had the advantage over the strongers warriors since these strongers fighters had to held back in order to no kill weaker fighters and the way they emphasized the power is not all but "team work" and strategies are important too.. Overall I'm disappointed of this TOP.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by Mertor » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:22 pm

Edit: Are you referring to the final charge against Cell are the Kikoho scene? I think I may have gotten confused due to how the sentences flow into each other.
To the final charge against Cell. It never happened. Sorry that you felt confused.
Krilin had Saichoro's boost and Tenshinhan trained with Kaio for more time than Goku and arrived in better condition than him to his planet. In-universe there are reasons for the debate about Krilin and Tenshinhan and I would go for Ten if we only had that. I go with Krilin just because I don't think Toriyama was excluding Tenshinhan as earthling when he said he was the strongest, but I'm not in Toriyama's head, so who knows. The truth is the androids are earthlings too, so that statement is wrong from the start.
Androids are classified as androids by author and guidebooks themselves. So why you state that they are in the same category like Tien and Kuririn, if their classification is different?
Obviously the nature of the attacks is to be considered and I'm doing so. Tenshinhan's Kikoho is an attack that sacrificing his own life force is able to hold an enemy that no SS attack at the time could hold, they couldn't even with the androids and first form Cell was already above them, this was the second. I was just saying what Tenshinhan did was a feat, I wasn't arguing about PL in that paragraph, I just did that in the last one.
In other words it is not feat of power cause it does not indicates Tien power at all. This Kikoho would not damage androids or even Final Form Frieza, so to speak. It it powerful attack, yup. However it did nothing to Cell barely pushed him so it is not a feat unless Shin Kikoho power> C16 punch.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by Basako » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:14 pm

Mertor wrote:
Basako wrote:Krilin had Saichoro's boost and Tenshinhan trained with Kaio for more time than Goku and arrived in better condition than him to his planet. In-universe there are reasons for the debate about Krilin and Tenshinhan and I would go for Ten if we only had that. I go with Krilin just because I don't think Toriyama was excluding Tenshinhan as earthling when he said he was the strongest, but I'm not in Toriyama's head, so who knows. The truth is the androids are earthlings too, so that statement is wrong from the start.
Androids are classified as androids by author and guidebooks themselves. So why you state that they are in the same category like Tien and Kuririn, if their classification is different?
Maybe they are classified like that by the guidebooks, but the author has never done that kind of classifications. We are speaking about Toriyama's statement here, yeah, he excluded the androids in there, otherwise it wouldn't be Krilin, but the androids are still earthlings, making that statement wrong, no matter who said it, which was my point.
Mertor wrote:
Basako wrote:Obviously the nature of the attacks is to be considered and I'm doing so. Tenshinhan's Kikoho is an attack that sacrificing his own life force is able to hold an enemy that no SS attack at the time could hold, they couldn't even with the androids and first form Cell was already above them, this was the second. I was just saying what Tenshinhan did was a feat, I wasn't arguing about PL in that paragraph, I just did that in the last one.
In other words it is not feat of power cause it does not indicates Tien power at all. This Kikoho would not damage androids or even Final Form Frieza, so to speak. It it powerful attack, yup. However it did nothing to Cell barely pushed him so it is not a feat unless Shin Kikoho power> C16 punch.
No, with the exact words, it was totally a feat. Yeah, it's a great technique, with a high cost, Tenshinhan can use it and he did, accomplishing something no one else could in that moment, not even Goku. It held Cell long enough so 16 and 18 could escape, it served its purpose. What happened next is another story, but the guy did his part.
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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by Ziegander » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:43 pm

Just how strong does everyone think the Shin Kikoho is? Just how "costly?" Because... it almost never seems to do Tien any actual harm, even waaaay back in the Saiyan Saga all it ever did, sometimes, was tire him out, the regular Kikoho that is. When he pulled out the Shin Kikoho against Cell he uses it at least 30 times consecutively. It knocks him out, but he's perfectly fine by the Cell games. It wouldn't even hurt the androids or Final Form Frieza? The first time he used it against Cell, just that one time, it knocked 18 flat on her face and her response to 16 asking, "Are you okay?" was, "I'm fine, I think." Everyone likes to talk like Tien was maybe PL 30,000 when he Shin Kikoho'd the mess out of Cell, but that would mean the Shin Kikoho is something close to 1,000 times as powerful as Tien. Does no one else here find that figure totally unreasonable? He's used the Kikoho against strong opponents before. It couldn't even hurt people who were between 2 and 6 times his power level. And, no, it's not just a "push" technique. It destroys. It levels rock. It has injured and debilitated opponents before, the Shin Kikoho, in particular, as recently as RoF and Tien's recent elimination episode.

If the technique actually did anything to him more than exhaust him physically, I'd understand the argument that maybe it just doesn't follow the same Ki potency rules as something like a Kamehameha, which does the same thing but seemingly less so, but Tien has never, ever seemed to sustain lasting harm from using the Kikoho or Shin Kikoho.
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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by Basako » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:17 pm

Ziegander wrote:Just how strong does everyone think the Shin Kikoho is? Just how "costly?" Because... it almost never seems to do Tien any actual harm, even waaaay back in the Saiyan Saga all it ever did, sometimes, was tire him out, the regular Kikoho that is. When he pulled out the Shin Kikoho against Cell he uses it at least 30 times consecutively. It knocks him out, but he's perfectly fine by the Cell games. It wouldn't even hurt the androids or Final Form Frieza? The first time he used it against Cell, just that one time, it knocked 18 flat on her face and her response to 16 asking, "Are you okay?" was, "I'm fine, I think." Everyone likes to talk like Tien was maybe PL 30,000 when he Shin Kikoho'd the mess out of Cell, but that would mean the Shin Kikoho is something close to 1,000 times as powerful as Tien. Does no one else here find that figure totally unreasonable? He's used the Kikoho against strong opponents before. It couldn't even hurt people who were between 2 and 6 times his power level. And, no, it's not just a "push" technique. It destroys. It levels rock. It has injured and debilitated opponents before, the Shin Kikoho, in particular, as recently as RoF and Tien's recent elimination episode.

If the technique actually did anything to him more than exhaust him physically, I'd understand the argument that maybe it just doesn't follow the same Ki potency rules as something like a Kamehameha, which does the same thing but seemingly less so, but Tien has never, ever seemed to sustain lasting harm from using the Kikoho or Shin Kikoho.
It's as damaging and costly as the plot requires it to be. For start, forget the numbers, you won't get anything good from them.

It looks like the intensity can be graduated. There may be a low intensity Kikoho that doesn't drain life force, examples, with Boo and The Preecho. But when required, he can get the extra power from his own life, Nappa or Cell. Anyway, a classic senzu or Dende type of curing restores his health, as long as he still is alive. Don't over think it, it's DB.

The "new" Kikoho, as it's been presented, is BS. It hasn't been shown to be any different. Similar to the Tayoken ×100, like if the previous one didn't blind enough or something. None of this name upgrades have shown to make any difference in practice.
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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by Mertor » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:12 am

Maybe they are classified like that by the guidebooks, but the author has never done that kind of classifications. We are speaking about Toriyama's statement here, yeah, he excluded the androids in there, otherwise it wouldn't be Krilin, but the androids are still earthlings, making that statement wrong, no matter who said it, which was my point
This is why he stated by Yamcha, that Kuririn is strongest among earthlings with specification of the group of "clean" humans so to speak. Androids, are not clean humans. Androids are not classified as earthlings, Goku and Gohan or Goten either so I don't know why you want so much to tell that Androids are "earthlings"
No, with the exact words, it was totally a feat. Yeah, it's a great technique, with a high cost, Tenshinhan can use it and he did, accomplishing something no one else could in that moment, not even Goku. It held Cell long enough so 16 and 18 could escape, it served its purpose. What happened next is another story, but the guy did his part.
It was a feat but not a feat of power. This Kikoho does not indicate anything about Tien real strenght. This is my point.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by Basako » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:23 am

Mertor wrote:This is why he stated by Yamcha, that Kuririn is strongest among earthlings with specification of the group of "clean" humans so to speak. Androids, are not clean humans. Androids are not classified as earthlings, Goku and Gohan or Goten either so I don't know why you want so much to tell that Androids are "earthlings"

It was a feat but not a feat of power. This Kikoho does not indicate anything about Tien real strenght. This is my point.
Toriyama said Krilin is the strongest among earthlings, he obviously excluded modified humans in that statement, I was only saying that it was wrong. Earthling means from Earth, but whatever. Now Yamcha said humans instead of earthlings, so there the area narrows. He was just cheering up Marron anyway, so let's put the words in context. But let's see, Yamcha clearly excludes modified humans from humans and obviously hybrids and also foreign races like namekians. But what about Tenshinhan? Well, it's not only a guide book and Toshio, I just found this interview to the voice cast where his voice actor said Tenshinhan is not an earthling and another actor saying "Krilin and Yamcha are the strongest earthlings, the rest are aliens". So why do so many people in the cast an crew insist on this? You know, I'm about to change my mind, Tenshinhan is not human, so Toriyama's words excluded him too from his ranking.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ice-talks/

At least you can say it was a feat now. But we can discuss power levels and techniques too. Let's see, we have the Mafuba, which appareantly requires so much stamina when the foe is stronger in relation to the caster that it kills him. Doesn't mean Mutaito and Roshi were stronger, but what they did was totally a feat. We have also the Kaio Ken, I think there are enough similarities with the Kikoho, the technique pushes the body so much that it can kill Goku, stated many times, not sure about reducing life. Would anybody say it's the technique is not Goku? It's him using it, it's his power. Nobody says his base is stronger because of that, so what. Now the Kikoho, it is in fact a good technique with a high cost, but the power comes from within him, he doesn't take it from the outside, like for example the Genkidama, so that power is his too. I wouldn't say his base power level is higher for that, never did, but that is his technique and the power comes from him, you can't take that from him.
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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by JazzHands » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:45 pm

Just want to address the part where someone said Roshi was defeating Ganos on technique. Thats partly true. He did smack Ganos away like a fly. That takes strength equal or above. Also in order to doge something you Power level has to be close enough to see and fast enough to move from attacks.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by Boo Machine » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:51 pm

JazzHands wrote:Just want to address the part where someone said Roshi was defeating Ganos on technique. Thats partly true. He did smack Ganos away like a fly. That takes strength equal or above. Also in order to doge something you Power level has to be close enough to see and fast enough to move from attacks.
Roshi also says he has been observing these fighters (he even call out the Talisman ladies specialty before she mentions it herself.) and he says that Ganos moves are straight forward and predictable which probably helps with the dodging. Not to downplay Roshi's strength, but he did emphasize technique over power for the most part.
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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by JazzHands » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:55 pm

Basako wrote:
Mertor wrote:This is why he stated by Yamcha, that Kuririn is strongest among earthlings with specification of the group of "clean" humans so to speak. Androids, are not clean humans. Androids are not classified as earthlings, Goku and Gohan or Goten either so I don't know why you want so much to tell that Androids are "earthlings"

It was a feat but not a feat of power. This Kikoho does not indicate anything about Tien real strenght. This is my point.
Toriyama said Krilin is the strongest among earthlings, he obviously excluded modified humans in that statement, I was only saying that it was wrong. Earthling means from Earth, but whatever. Now Yamcha said humans instead of earthlings, so there the area narrows. He was just cheering up Marron anyway, so let's put the words in context. But let's see, Yamcha clearly excludes modified humans from humans and obviously hybrids and also foreign races like namekians. But what about Tenshinhan? Well, it's not only a guide book and Toshio, I just found this interview to the voice cast where his voice actor said Tenshinhan is not an earthling and another actor saying "Krilin and Yamcha are the strongest earthlings, the rest are aliens". So why do so many people in the cast an crew insist on this? You know, I'm about to change my mind, Tenshinhan is not human, so Toriyama's words excluded him too from his ranking.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ice-talks/

At least you can say it was a feat now. But we can discuss power levels and techniques too. Let's see, we have the Mafuba, which appareantly requires so much stamina when the foe is stronger in relation to the caster that it kills him. Doesn't mean Mutaito and Roshi were stronger, but what they did was totally a feat. We have also the Kaio Ken, I think there are enough similarities with the Kikoho, the technique pushes the body so much that it can kill Goku, stated many times, not sure about reducing life. Would anybody say it's the technique is not Goku? It's him using it, it's his power. Nobody says his base is stronger because of that, so what. Now the Kikoho, it is in fact a good technique with a high cost, but the power comes from within him, he doesn't take it from the outside, like for example the Genkidama, so that power is his too. I wouldn't say his base power level is higher for that, never did, but that is his technique and the power comes from him, you can't take that from him.
I've seen this before. But if people want to believe something they will dismiss it. Akira himself in an interview was asked if Tien was human. And he gave an explanation on how in his culture he is seen. Which is not human. But god-like. Has it been expressed in the series? No, but neither have 17 and 18 real names. All the evidence its clear that Eastern culture do not see Tien as human/Earthling. Wether or not that proves he stronger than Krillin is debatable. Its a shame that Super has been such a let down in exploring this. Toriyama made the outline for Tien opening up the new Crane school in DBO. So Toei borrowed that. But chose to hijack that episode. Yurin could have been someone from Tiens ancestry. Revealed somethings, maybe even unlocked some power. Yet it turned into a Roshi perve episode and punching bag on Tien just to have Goku save the day again. The best thing about Z was that Goku wasnt in every episode. We got time to explore the characters with out Goku taking the lime light. But Super and Toei has to put Goku in every episode. Even Gohans episode. Goku had to fly in and observe, Last episode would have been much better if Goku was not involved.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by Basako » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:22 pm

JazzHands wrote: I've seen this before. But if people want to believe something they will dismiss it. Akira himself in an interview was asked if Tien was human. And he gave an explanation on how in his culture he is seen. Which is not human. But god-like. Has it been expressed in the series? No, but neither have 17 and 18 real names. All the evidence its clear that Eastern culture do not see Tien as human/Earthling. Wether or not that proves he stronger than Krillin is debatable. Its a shame that Super has been such a let down in exploring this. Toriyama made the outline for Tien opening up the new Crane school in DBO. So Toei borrowed that. But chose to hijack that episode. Yurin could have been someone from Tiens ancestry. Revealed somethings, maybe even unlocked some power. Yet it turned into a Roshi perve episode and punching bag on Tien just to have Goku save the day again. The best thing about Z was that Goku wasnt in every episode. We got time to explore the characters with out Goku taking the lime light. But Super and Toei has to put Goku in every episode. Even Gohans episode. Goku had to fly in and observe, Last episode would have been much better if Goku was not involved.
Yeah, I think the power level debate was never as settled as some people claimed, I see in and out universe arguments for both sides.

I agree about the episode, take Vegeta and Goku out from it and you could have Tenshinhan, Gohan and Piccolo handling Hermila and Prum by themselves, a nice strategy and teamwork episode. Also giving some dignity to Tenshinhan by actually letting him ring out the guy without falling too. I wouldn't care if someone else rang him out next, if he had at least that one neat victory for him, but no, too much to ask for the writers that used the guy only to be hit and punched by others in his two recruitment episodes. According to them, he is in the tournament just because Roshi was visiting him when Goku went to recruit the old man.
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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by JazzHands » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:24 pm

Basako wrote:
JazzHands wrote: I've seen this before. But if people want to believe something they will dismiss it. Akira himself in an interview was asked if Tien was human. And he gave an explanation on how in his culture he is seen. Which is not human. But god-like. Has it been expressed in the series? No, but neither have 17 and 18 real names. All the evidence its clear that Eastern culture do not see Tien as human/Earthling. Wether or not that proves he stronger than Krillin is debatable. Its a shame that Super has been such a let down in exploring this. Toriyama made the outline for Tien opening up the new Crane school in DBO. So Toei borrowed that. But chose to hijack that episode. Yurin could have been someone from Tiens ancestry. Revealed somethings, maybe even unlocked some power. Yet it turned into a Roshi perve episode and punching bag on Tien just to have Goku save the day again. The best thing about Z was that Goku wasnt in every episode. We got time to explore the characters with out Goku taking the lime light. But Super and Toei has to put Goku in every episode. Even Gohans episode. Goku had to fly in and observe, Last episode would have been much better if Goku was not involved.
Yeah, I think the power level debate was never as settled as some people claimed, I see in and out universe arguments for both sides.

I agree about the episode, take Vegeta and Goku out from it and you could have Tenshinhan, Gohan and Piccolo handling Hermila and Prum by themselves, a nice strategy and teamwork episode. Also giving some dignity to Tenshinhan by actually letting him ring out the guy without falling too. I wouldn't care if someone else rang him out next, if he had at least that one neat victory for him, but no, too much to ask for the writers that used the guy only to be hit and punched by others in his two recruitment episodes. According to them, he is in the tournament just because Roshi was visiting him when Goku went to recruit the old man.
Believe the manga will play out much differently. In my opinion Tenshinhan should have been an easy choice for Goku. The 10nth fighter should have been up in the air story line with Yamcha and Roshi. Some leaks for the manga have come out and it seems they are skipping the preliminaries. Replaced with a all god battle royale. Which makes sense. Because the preliminaries were nothing like the rules or fights of the current tournament. Since Akira works closer with Toyotaro whatever happens in the manga will be more canon to me.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by Basako » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:55 pm

JazzHands wrote: Believe the manga will play out much differently. In my opinion Tenshinhan should have been an easy choice for Goku. The 10nth fighter should have been up in the air story line with Yamcha and Roshi. Some leaks for the manga have come out and it seems they are skipping the preliminaries. Replaced with a all god battle royale. Which makes sense. Because the preliminaries were nothing like the rules or fights of the current tournament. Since Akira works closer with Toyotaro whatever happens in the manga will be more canon to me.
The manga is more canon for me too. Although I liked the anime exhibition matches, mostly Boo and Gohan's fights, not that much Goku's. But I'm liking the god of destruction battle royale too, so my heart will be divided if there is a replacement. But gives me some hope for the take on Tenshinhan, maybe Toyotaro writes him with some more dignity. Poor Yamcha, he is not getting in the team either, this treatment comes since the RoF movie, but I wonder if he will be at least considered this time.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:39 pm

Hate to bring a thread like this back to life but... goddamn... Tenshinhan's treatment in the manga was...goddamn. I mean, it was so fucking atrocious and somehow even much worse that how he was handled in the anime. I didn't think that was possible.

And Krillin... yikes...

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by The gr » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:42 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Hate to bring a thread like this back to life but... goddamn... Tenshinhan's treatment in the manga was...goddamn. I mean, it was so fucking atrocious and somehow even much worse that how he was handled in the anime. I didn't think that was possible.

And Krillin... yikes...
I've found Krillin to be way worse but I don't think it was necessary to bump this thread since we can discuss this at the respective manga thread.
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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by precita » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:11 pm

Why didn't they just have Buu in the tournament instead of Tien? Even if Buu didn't do much, his fights would be entertaining to watch. Buu could have went crazy then Jiren probably would have knocked him out in one hit, but prior to that Buu could have had a fun time.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by Saturnine » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:21 am

The last posts before the necro seem particularly funny now :D

Tien got freakin Yamcha'd last chapter

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by SsjCookie » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:07 am

Doctor. wrote:In his own episode, meant to showcase his prowess and leadership as a martial arts master, he got fooled, manipulated and later on punked by Roshi. In the following episode, he was in a tag-team battle where clearly he was the weakest link and just all-around seemed like an indecisive and inexperienced newbie when he's a seasoned warrior with tons of experience that should be able to make the best decisions on the fly. Then before the tournament began, he was hesitant to spar with Kuririn. And now in the tournament, the only thing he seems to know how to do is repeat "Sasuga Muten Roshi-sama" over and over and over again.

I don't even like the guy but this is getting embarrassing. I wonder why they even decided to bring him if they're not doing anything with the character.
Maybe they brought him back just to point out how far behind the human fighters are in comparison with the Saiyans.
Roshi was handled decently.
Krillin and Tien?.....not so much.

I kinda understand why they handled Krillin the way they did, he became a family man like Gohan thus fighting is no longer his nr 1 priority.
But Tien on the other hand has no excuse, he dedicated his whole life to the martial arts but has the least to show for it, shame on him. :thumbdown: (shame on the writers really.)

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