What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

[Kishido]

We can theoretically have buu become much stonger as well, it's not impossible for him, guy gets skinny in hours, if he was training he must have done that before and knows it will give him results..
We don't see him on screen almost all the time, it's possible he was training off screen or ranging a park when nobody is looking

I have no problem with Buu getting stronger, he's pure magic. I'm looking at the old turtle hermit in particular.

Basically SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than Buu Z. If Base Goku is now stronger by a large margin such that a SSJ3 Gotenks can't even hurt an equal base copy Vegeta who isnt even attempting to block his attacks. Then anyone who give base Goku trouble would need to be considerably stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, and by extension Super Buu. Yet the only match up we see is base Goku and buff Buu, and base Goku and possessed Roshi. So who is stronger? Possessed Roshi or Buff Buu and what is the measurement for this, because right now the best constant we have is them both fighting base Goku. Again this is where having two separate bases with two different power levels would clear up the power scaling. We can always use the "holding back take" but we basically might as well have two different bases of different power levels at that point anyway. It's basically the same as the two base theory.

@TheMikado, I genuinely do appreciate your approach towards all of this. Your first post on this thread was very well put -- I think you have a great grasp of what the intention of Saiyan Beyond God is.

If you recall in one of our last correspondences, we were discussing how Saiyan Beyond God could fit into DBSuper after the Copy-Vegeta and Monaka-Beerus scenes. I genuinely do feel it is interesting that Super Saiyan God is confirmed to return by Toshio to Ken Xyro. This could either solve some of the problems surrounding Goku's Base or make it more difficult.

I am starting to believe it is safe to go with: Base -> SS1 -> SS2 -> SS3 -> SBG -> SSG -> SSB -> SSB KK

Again and what would be the difference between Base Goku using god ki and SSG?

And why hasn't he used it before? You know why cuz so far people believed into this Beyond God... as base + god ki

[ryan s]

agreed this SBG is dead

if SBG was real Goku would have became a SSG, there is no indication he has ever used God ki in his base form only the opposite has ever been shown

at this point it is clinging to a dead theory

[Lord Beerus]

I have no problem with Buu getting stronger, he's pure magic. I'm looking at the old turtle hermit in particular.

Basically SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than Buu Z. If Base Goku is now stronger by a large margin such that a SSJ3 Gotenks can't even hurt an equal base copy Vegeta who isnt even attempting to block his attacks. Then anyone who give base Goku trouble would need to be considerably stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, and by extension Super Buu. Yet the only match up we see is base Goku and buff Buu, and base Goku and possessed Roshi. So who is stronger? Possessed Roshi or Buff Buu and what is the measurement for this, because right now the best constant we have is them both fighting base Goku. Again this is where having two separate bases with two different power levels would clear up the power scaling. We can always use the "holding back take" but we basically might as well have two different bases of different power levels at that point anyway. It's basically the same as the two base theory.

@TheMikado, I genuinely do appreciate your approach towards all of this. Your first post on this thread was very well put -- I think you have a great grasp of what the intention of Saiyan Beyond God is.

If you recall in one of our last correspondences, we were discussing how Saiyan Beyond God could fit into DBSuper after the Copy-Vegeta and Monaka-Beerus scenes. I genuinely do feel it is interesting that Super Saiyan God is confirmed to return by Toshio to Ken Xyro. This could either solve some of the problems surrounding Goku's Base or make it more difficult.

I am starting to believe it is safe to go with: Base -> SS1 -> SS2 -> SS3 -> SBG -> SSG -> SSB -> SSB KK

Again and what would be the difference between Base Goku using god ki and SSG?

And why hasn't he used it before? You know why cuz so far people believed into this Beyond God... as base + god ki

SSJG is completely separate transformation that has a set amount of power that be applied. While applying God ki can vary greatly.

As for why he hasn't used it yet... my guess is that it took a very long time time for Goku to re-learn how to tap into the power of SSJG on its own regard and in it's full capacity and beyond the short bursts we saw against Beerus in the BOG arc, against Hit in the Champa arc and against Copy Vegeta on Planet Potaufeu. And it was only very recently he was able to tap into the full strength of SSJG for a sustained amount of time.

[LowRyder2005]

The two-base theory was something made to acknowledge, in-universe, the return of the old Super Saiyan forms. Per what was established in ROF and the related material, this appeared rather counter-intuitive. It was later made to circle around the idea that everyone - suddenly and without any acceptable plot progression -, circumvented the Buu arc and reached a level of power similar to the Super Saiyan God, alas a way to save Super's writing from crappy writing, basically.

Although it appears some people are surprisingly tolerant of the "crappy writing theory", the more grounded "they screwed up, now they quietly got back to the roots" is most certainly what the show abides to. Gohan was expressly said to be weaker than the Ultimate Gohan from Z while his Super Saiyan forms boosted his power "many dozens of times" -- both statements cannot coexist with the notion that Gohan and SS3 Gotenks were around the same tier during the Buu arc. Other than that we have very recently seen #18's clear portrayal of someone who still surpasses Goku's normal strength without even trying. Fourth Form Freeza - who had power comparable to the base Goku seen in ROF, a placeholder for SSG or someone around that tier of strength - was only shown completely and nearly-effortlessly overwhelming his opponents, including Murichim (the big guy the leader of Universe 10, who could very reasonably be the strongest in his Universe and whose subordinate is stronger than base Gohan, since he's going to fight no less than Ultimate Gohan in the next episode) and Napapa (who is stronger than base Caulifla). All the while, base Goku is again portrayed as unable to swat away even Basil, who's weaker than the supposedly-fodder Good Buu.

All in all, Gotenks vs. Vegeta was such a minor plot point, from a pseudo-filler episode that really didn't hold any weight in the grander scheme of things. Some fans are just sticking to it for what appears to be more of a matter of principle than anything else.
The other writers between the manga and the anime, Toriyama and Toyotaro included, which subscribe to a much more encompassing and weighty framework, seemingly all treat base Goku as not that much different from his old self power-wise. Which makes sense for many reasons, starting from what I think might be a goal of making Super being easily digestible and recognizable to the average DB fan.

For the record, in-universe, something like "Base < SS forms < beyond God base >=< SSG < SSB" could still easily fit without contradicting pretty much anything in the show. This rationale that "SSG and SBG" needed to be mutually exclusive is biased, if not more than a tad silly.

[TheMikado]

We can theoretically have buu become much stonger as well, it's not impossible for him, guy gets skinny in hours, if he was training he must have done that before and knows it will give him results..
We don't see him on screen almost all the time, it's possible he was training off screen or ranging a park when nobody is looking

I have no problem with Buu getting stronger, he's pure magic. I'm looking at the old turtle hermit in particular.

Basically SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than Buu Z. If Base Goku is now stronger by a large margin such that a SSJ3 Gotenks can't even hurt an equal base copy Vegeta who isnt even attempting to block his attacks. Then anyone who give base Goku trouble would need to be considerably stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, and by extension Super Buu. Yet the only match up we see is base Goku and buff Buu, and base Goku and possessed Roshi. So who is stronger? Possessed Roshi or Buff Buu and what is the measurement for this, because right now the best constant we have is them both fighting base Goku. Again this is where having two separate bases with two different power levels would clear up the power scaling. We can always use the "holding back take" but we basically might as well have two different bases of different power levels at that point anyway. It's basically the same as the two base theory.

@TheMikado, I genuinely do appreciate your approach towards all of this. Your first post on this thread was very well put -- I think you have a great grasp of what the intention of Saiyan Beyond God is.

If you recall in one of our last correspondences, we were discussing how Saiyan Beyond God could fit into DBSuper after the Copy-Vegeta and Monaka-Beerus scenes. I genuinely do feel it is interesting that Super Saiyan God is confirmed to return by Toshio to Ken Xyro. This could either solve some of the problems surrounding Goku's Base or make it more difficult.

I am starting to believe it is safe to go with: Base -> SS1 -> SS2 -> SS3 -> SBG -> SSG -> SSB -> SSB KK

This progression would literally solve everything. You would still have a somewhat unsatisfying reason for why Goku used SbG in specific circumstances and not others, but I would think most people could overlook that just for the sake of something that resembles an explanation. Like everything else Dragonball related, it's not the ideas that are inheritly awful, but rather the execution. To put this in perspective we have the most powerful race named after vegetables, who fought a being from a race named after refrigerator appliances who assembled a team of dairy products. While fighting on a planet who prominent members of the race are named after musical instruments. - Nothing about bringing SSG is inherently bad and could actually be awesome, but this is almost entirely hinging on the execution. I really how that progression scale you mapped out turns out to be true because it end a lot of the debate on power levels in general.

[ryan s]

The two-base theory was something made to acknowledge, in-universe, the return of the old Super Saiyan forms. Per what was established in ROF and the related material, this appeared rather counter-intuitive. It was later made to circle around the idea that everyone - suddenly and without any acceptable plot progression -, circumvented the Buu arc and reached a level of power similar to the Super Saiyan God, alas a way to save Super's writing from crappy writing, basically.

Although it appears some people are surprisingly tolerant of the "crappy writing theory", the more grounded "they screwed up, now they quietly got back to the roots" is most certainly what the show abides to. Gohan was expressly said to be weaker than the Ultimate Gohan from Z while his Super Saiyan forms boosted his power "many dozens of times" -- both statements cannot coexist with the notion that Gohan and SS3 Gotenks were around the same tier during the Buu arc. Other than that we have very recently seen #18's clear portrayal of someone who still surpasses Goku's normal strength without even trying. Fourth Form Freeza - who had power comparable to the base Goku seen in ROF, a placeholder for SSG or someone around that tier of strength - was only shown completely and nearly-effortlessly overwhelming his opponents, including Murichim (the big guy the leader of Universe 10, who could very reasonably be the strongest in his Universe and whose subordinate is stronger than base Gohan, since he's going to fight no less than Ultimate Gohan in the next episode) and Napapa (who is stronger than base Caulifla). All the while, base Goku is again portrayed as unable to swat away even Basil, who's weaker than the supposedly-fodder Good Buu.

All in all, Gotenks vs. Vegeta was such a minor plot point, from a pseudo-filler episode that really didn't hold any weight in the grander scheme of things. Some fans are just sticking to it for what appears to be more of a matter of principle than anything else.
The other writers between the manga and the anime, Toriyama and Toyotaro included, which subscribe to a much more encompassing and weighty framework, seemingly all treat base Goku as not that much different from his old self power-wise. Which makes sense for many reasons, starting from what I think might be a goal of making Super being easily digestible and recognizable to the average DB fan.

For the record, in-universe, something like "Base < SS forms < beyond God base >=< SSG < SSB" could still easily fit without contradicting pretty much anything in the show. This rationale that "SSG and SBG" needed to be mutually exclusive is biased, if not more than a tad silly.

we have had no indication that 18 surpasses Goku' s normal strength and there are so many flaws here

1) if Goku was only putting out short bursts of SSG then how did he stop Beerus's energy ball in episode 14 in his base state ? this very ball which SSJ Goku was struggling with. ( his SSJ form was stated to have surpassed super sayain god)

2) Goku was at the level of gods stated multiple times after the beerus fight and was weaker then vegeta (episode 18) who has never felt god ki until he entered that place (episode 22 -23 ) meaning the two base theory is dead

Vegeta (no god ki) > Goku =SSG level of gods

3) it is stated Goku absorbed all the God power and made it his own therefore nothing suggest he can only tap into little bits of it at all which is why he can turn SSB because he has full control of it

taking head canon way to far

[LowRyder2005]

The two-base theory was something made to acknowledge, in-universe, the return of the old Super Saiyan forms. Per what was established in ROF and the related material, this appeared rather counter-intuitive. It was later made to circle around the idea that everyone - suddenly and without any acceptable plot progression -, circumvented the Buu arc and reached a level of power similar to the Super Saiyan God, alas a way to save Super's writing from crappy writing, basically.

Although it appears some people are surprisingly tolerant of the "crappy writing theory", the more grounded "they screwed up, now they quietly got back to the roots" is most certainly what the show abides to. Gohan was expressly said to be weaker than the Ultimate Gohan from Z while his Super Saiyan forms boosted his power "many dozens of times" -- both statements cannot coexist with the notion that Gohan and SS3 Gotenks were around the same tier during the Buu arc. Other than that we have very recently seen #18's clear portrayal of someone who still surpasses Goku's normal strength without even trying. Fourth Form Freeza - who had power comparable to the base Goku seen in ROF, a placeholder for SSG or someone around that tier of strength - was only shown completely and nearly-effortlessly overwhelming his opponents, including Murichim (the big guy the leader of Universe 10, who could very reasonably be the strongest in his Universe and whose subordinate is stronger than base Gohan, since he's going to fight no less than Ultimate Gohan in the next episode) and Napapa (who is stronger than base Caulifla). All the while, base Goku is again portrayed as unable to swat away even Basil, who's weaker than the supposedly-fodder Good Buu.

All in all, Gotenks vs. Vegeta was such a minor plot point, from a pseudo-filler episode that really didn't hold any weight in the grander scheme of things. Some fans are just sticking to it for what appears to be more of a matter of principle than anything else.
The other writers between the manga and the anime, Toriyama and Toyotaro included, which subscribe to a much more encompassing and weighty framework, seemingly all treat base Goku as not that much different from his old self power-wise. Which makes sense for many reasons, starting from what I think might be a goal of making Super being easily digestible and recognizable to the average DB fan.

For the record, in-universe, something like "Base < SS forms < beyond God base >=< SSG < SSB" could still easily fit without contradicting pretty much anything in the show. This rationale that "SSG and SBG" needed to be mutually exclusive is biased, if not more than a tad silly.

apart from the fact that Goku who was at the level of gods state multiplie times was still weaker then vegeta who has never felt god ki until he entered that place menaing the two base theory is dead

No, this is completely false and if anything it's the exact contrary, since the gods froze in fear and say Goku has power "comparable to the gods" only after they see Goku turning Blue.

[ryan s]

it is flat out stated by the narrator, that he is at the level of Gods and that vegeta was training to get there himself and that is months after the beerus battle and plus there were so many errors in your explanation that make no sense and contradict statements but we go to any lengths to protect a broken theory right?

these are not the statements i am referring to but they still apply

Minute: 23
Context: Beerus points out to Goku that he’s no longer Super Saiyan God
Beerus: “You’re out of time, aren’t you? After all, your Super Saiyan God aura has vanished! You’re a bit slow on the uptake.”
Goku: “Huh? When did that happen? But I don’t feel like I’ve gotten weaker at all! What’s going on, Beerus-sama?”
Beerus: “Don’t ask me!”
Goku: “But you’re a god, right?”
Beerus: “Well, it seems that the power of Super Saiyan God didn’t just vanish when time ran out. The power has fully merged with you and become your own. God’s crimson radiance still burns inside you like a flame.”

Minute: 5
Context: Vegeta stands out in the middle of nowhere, reflecting on Goku's fight with Beerus.
Vegeta: "He surpassed it. Super Saiyan God. The level of gods."
Significance: Both Vegeta and the narrator mention that Goku has "surpassed the level of (the) god(s)" (神の域を超えた/kami no iki wo koeta; literally "surpassed the realm of the gods")

here herms makes note of it so no it is not false

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

I think we need to accept that for whatever reason(s), Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks's uselessness on Potaufeu was by every fault of his own. There's clearly something terribly wrong with him even if he was fighting a God-level Vegeta, due to how all kinds of other characters are at least capable of giving SSJB slight trouble and a Super Saiyan 3 isn't one of them.

Regardless of what base Copy Vegeta could have been in, Gotenks's impotence has got to be addressed. Was that a failed fusion? Squandered potential ala Gohan? A Super Saiyan 3 stamina malfunction on the same level as Manga Vegeta vs. Hit? All three?

[ryan s]

@TheMikado, I genuinely do appreciate your approach towards all of this. Your first post on this thread was very well put -- I think you have a great grasp of what the intention of Saiyan Beyond God is.

If you recall in one of our last correspondences, we were discussing how Saiyan Beyond God could fit into DBSuper after the Copy-Vegeta and Monaka-Beerus scenes. I genuinely do feel it is interesting that Super Saiyan God is confirmed to return by Toshio to Ken Xyro. This could either solve some of the problems surrounding Goku's Base or make it more difficult.

I am starting to believe it is safe to go with: Base -> SS1 -> SS2 -> SS3 -> SBG -> SSG -> SSB -> SSB KK

Again and what would be the difference between Base Goku using god ki and SSG?

And why hasn't he used it before? You know why cuz so far people believed into this Beyond God... as base + god ki

SSJG is completely separate transformation that has a set amount of power that be applied. While applying God ki can vary greatly.

As for why he hasn't used it yet... my guess is that it took a very long time time for Goku to re-learn how to tap into the power of SSJG on its own regard and in it's full capacity and beyond the short bursts we saw against Beerus in the BOG arc, against Hit in the Champa arc and against Copy Vegeta on Planet Potaufeu. And it was only very recently he was able to tap into the full strength of SSJG for a sustained amount of time.

how would he turn SSB then? if he can't tap into SSG then he can't become as SSB so please stop making stuff up it's annoying, everyone jumping to the theory's defence without truly thinking about the implications of previously established facts

Goku: "Actually, that's not quite right. It's a little complicated and hard to explain, but... This is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan."

therefore he has to be able to tap into SSG

SSJ1 > SSJ2 > SSJ3 > SSG > SSB > SSB KK

[Bullza]

It actually never made much too much sense at all.

See most people thought that Vegeta had become a Saiyan Beyond God after those six months of training because he was as strong as Goku now and he'd reached a level where he could sense God Ki and all that.

Bit when he was thrown into Whis' staff, which was filled with God Ki, Vegeta acts like it's the first time he'd experienced it because he comments on its pressure.

So obviously he could not have become a Saiyan Beyond God prior to this otherwise God Ki wouldn't be a surprise to him. Instead he is as strong as he is because of training. Which makes sense because at no point do they mention he'd become a God before this. Whis even compares their strength to that of a God.

It was no more complicated than that. They were stronger than ever from training and then later learned how to become a God, which we only see them at that level when they use Super Saiyan Blue.

[LowRyder2005]

it is flat out stated by the narrator, that he is at the level of Gods and that vegeta was training to get there himself and that is months after the beerus battle and plus there were so many errors in your "explanation" that make no sense and contradict statements but we go to any lengths to protect a broken theory right?

these are not the statements i am referring to but they still apply

Minute: 23
Context: Beerus points out to Goku that he’s no longer Super Saiyan God
Beerus: “You’re out of time, aren’t you? After all, your Super Saiyan God aura has vanished! You’re a bit slow on the uptake.”
Goku: “Huh? When did that happen? But I don’t feel like I’ve gotten weaker at all! What’s going on, Beerus-sama?”
Beerus: “Don’t ask me!”
Goku: “But you’re a god, right?”
Beerus: “Well, it seems that the power of Super Saiyan God didn’t just vanish when time ran out. The power has fully merged with you and become your own. God’s crimson radiance still burns inside you like a flame.”

Minute: 5
Context: Vegeta stands out in the middle of nowhere, reflecting on Goku's fight with Beerus.
Vegeta: "He surpassed it. Super Saiyan God. The level of gods."
Significance: Both Vegeta and the narrator mention that Goku has "surpassed the level of (the) god(s)" (神の域を超えた/kami no iki wo koeta; literally "surpassed the realm of the gods")

here herms makes note of it so no it is not false

I don't need the quotes from any episode, as they do not really go against anything of which it's been said so far.

1. You don't know what happened to the Super Saiyan Goku weeks or months after the BOG arc; in fact, the same Super Saiyan Goku is shown as trading blows on equalish terms with a Super Saiyan Gohan who's inferior to Ultimate Gohan from Z.

2. Vegeta is just stated to have become massively stronger than his old self; he could have got the Super Saiyan God only after understanding God's ki or his visit in Whis' staff. Vegeta is also never stated to have become as strong as a Super Saiyan God.

3. In later episodes, again, everyone makes a big deal of Goku's strength being god-like only when Blue. Combined with the weaker Super Saiyan Gohan's being portrayed as capable of trading blows with Goku -- which does nothing short of completely invalidating any "Goku is stronger than Buu arc's Super Saiyan Goku in base reasoning", #18's strength being quite apparently superior to Goku's, etc. they all make, again, your points about BOG clarifying anything completely moot.

[ryan s]

it is flat out stated by the narrator, that he is at the level of Gods and that vegeta was training to get there himself and that is months after the beerus battle and plus there were so many errors in your "explanation" that make no sense and contradict statements but we go to any lengths to protect a broken theory right?

these are not the statements i am referring to but they still apply

Minute: 23
Context: Beerus points out to Goku that he’s no longer Super Saiyan God
Beerus: “You’re out of time, aren’t you? After all, your Super Saiyan God aura has vanished! You’re a bit slow on the uptake.”
Goku: “Huh? When did that happen? But I don’t feel like I’ve gotten weaker at all! What’s going on, Beerus-sama?”
Beerus: “Don’t ask me!”
Goku: “But you’re a god, right?”
Beerus: “Well, it seems that the power of Super Saiyan God didn’t just vanish when time ran out. The power has fully merged with you and become your own. God’s crimson radiance still burns inside you like a flame.”

Minute: 5
Context: Vegeta stands out in the middle of nowhere, reflecting on Goku's fight with Beerus.
Vegeta: "He surpassed it. Super Saiyan God. The level of gods."
Significance: Both Vegeta and the narrator mention that Goku has "surpassed the level of (the) god(s)" (神の域を超えた/kami no iki wo koeta; literally "surpassed the realm of the gods")

here herms makes note of it so no it is not false

I don't need the quotes from any episode, as they do not really go against anything of which it's been said so far.

1. You don't know what happened to the Super Saiyan Goku weeks or months after the BOG arc; in fact, the same Super Saiyan Goku is shown as trading blows on equalish terms with a Super Saiyan Gohan who's inferior to Ultimate Gohan from Z.

2. Vegeta is just stated to have become massively stronger than his old self; he could have got the Super Saiyan God only after understanding God's ki or his visit in Whis' staff. Vegeta is also never stated to have become as strong as a Super Saiyan God.

3. In later episodes, again, everyone makes a big deal of Goku's strength being god-like only when Blue. Combined with the weaker Super Saiyan Gohan's being portrayed as capable of trading blows with Goku -- which does nothing short of completely invalidating any "Goku is stronger than Buu arc's Super Saiyan Goku in base reasoning", #18's strength being quite apparently superior to Goku's, etc. they all make, again, your points about BOG clarifying anything completely moot.

1) the narrator establishes that he is still at the level of Gods months after the battle and that vegeta is aiming for that too "vegeta trained so he also could reach the level of gods" and Vegeta still states he has surpassed it months after the battle so what is your point? this can be shown because whis had visited the earth "every now and then" as stated by bulma and she said in episode 17 h usually comes every one or two months so a huge amount of time has passed

so we can factually establish SSJ Goku >> SSG without your what ifs

2) so? Goku was stronger than SSG in episode 18 yet Vegeta having no God ki was stronger than him

3) this literally has no point to it so what? if Goku's base was SSG and he can get 400 x stronger than it blue still makes him way stronger and near a god of destructions level therefore they would be shocked

you completely fail to understand the points and instead hide behind what ifs ie what if goku got weaker, what if this etc

[LowRyder2005]

it is flat out stated by the narrator, that he is at the level of Gods and that vegeta was training to get there himself and that is months after the beerus battle and plus there were so many errors in your "explanation" that make no sense and contradict statements but we go to any lengths to protect a broken theory right?

these are not the statements i am referring to but they still apply

Minute: 23
Context: Beerus points out to Goku that he’s no longer Super Saiyan God
Beerus: “You’re out of time, aren’t you? After all, your Super Saiyan God aura has vanished! You’re a bit slow on the uptake.”
Goku: “Huh? When did that happen? But I don’t feel like I’ve gotten weaker at all! What’s going on, Beerus-sama?”
Beerus: “Don’t ask me!”
Goku: “But you’re a god, right?”
Beerus: “Well, it seems that the power of Super Saiyan God didn’t just vanish when time ran out. The power has fully merged with you and become your own. God’s crimson radiance still burns inside you like a flame.”

Minute: 5
Context: Vegeta stands out in the middle of nowhere, reflecting on Goku's fight with Beerus.
Vegeta: "He surpassed it. Super Saiyan God. The level of gods."
Significance: Both Vegeta and the narrator mention that Goku has "surpassed the level of (the) god(s)" (神の域を超えた/kami no iki wo koeta; literally "surpassed the realm of the gods")

here herms makes note of it so no it is not false

I don't need the quotes from any episode, as they do not really go against anything of which it's been said so far.

1. You don't know what happened to the Super Saiyan Goku weeks or months after the BOG arc; in fact, the same Super Saiyan Goku is shown as trading blows on equalish terms with a Super Saiyan Gohan who's inferior to Ultimate Gohan from Z.

2. Vegeta is just stated to have become massively stronger than his old self; he could have got the Super Saiyan God only after understanding God's ki or his visit in Whis' staff. Vegeta is also never stated to have become as strong as a Super Saiyan God.

3. In later episodes, again, everyone makes a big deal of Goku's strength being god-like only when Blue. Combined with the weaker Super Saiyan Gohan's being portrayed as capable of trading blows with Goku -- which does nothing short of completely invalidating any "Goku is stronger than Buu arc's Super Saiyan Goku in base reasoning", #18's strength being quite apparently superior to Goku's, etc. they all make, again, your points about BOG clarifying anything completely moot.

1) the narrator establishes that he is still at the level of Gods months after the battle and Vegeta still states he has surpassed it months after the battle so what is your point? this can be shown because whis had visited the earth now and then as stated bulma so a huge amount of time has passed

2) so? Goku was as stronger than SSG in episode 18 yet Vegeta having no God ki was stronger than him

3) this literally has no point to it so what? if Goku's base was SSG and he can get 400 x stronger than it blue still makes him way stronger and near a god of destructions level therefore they would be shocked

you completely fail to understand the points and instead hide behind what ifs ie what if goku got weaker, what if this etc

1. No, I'm not arguing at all to up until that point. At the time of the exhibition matches in the tournament, base Goku hasn't the "power of a god" because every other character says so, and that's all I need to prove. Your point that 60 episodes prior it was said he had it/some of it is, like I said, completely moot.

2. Goku's second base could have been stronger than Vegeta's normal base, which doubled its power. By the way, other than your bias towards the "theory I don't like" in itself this is circular reasoning: you're trying to disprove the idea of a second base by assuming the second base doesn't exist already.

3. I suppose the problem in accepting a common premise goes quite deep, then. You really think that characters say of the gods' benchmark is 1 (SSG) and that after some episode the characters raise that benchmark to some 1,000/ 10,000/ 100,000? Notwithstanding that you might as well be assuming that every other non-God character, including #18, Piccolo, reaches it by doing some simple training on their own, when Piccolo couldn't even become as strong as Super Saiyan Goku from the Buu arc after six years.

First and foremost, like I said, with this kind of logic also can't justify Gohan: some of your points rest on terminology like "chikara", while Piccolo said Gohan did not possess the same power/strength ("chikara") he used against Buu when they fought. "Chikara" is statistcally always used to define "strength", which is used also in the episode synopsis, etc.; again, Gohan is in completely unambiguous terms not as strong as Ultimate Gohan up until ep. 95. This - for the nth time - completely invalidates all of your points, since that Super Saiyan Gohan is at bare minimum consistently portrayed as stronger than base Goku.

[Saturnine]

The thing is, there never was a two base theory in-universe. If anything, it's an out of universe explanation. Goku and Vegeta were supposed to be as strong as SSj God in base right up till RoF, then the writers just stealthily went back on this (with a break of consistency in the Potaufeu arc), but it's clear that in the new direction Goku and Vegeta are not supposed to be as strong as SSj God in base. That's all there is to it, and Goku using SSj God will pretty much seal it.

Also, to clear things up, I actually don't think the two base proponents think Goku and Vegeta are "only a bit stronger" than their Buu arc selves. They're much stronger, but only to the extent that their amount of trainings would suggest, disregarding god ki. I personally think that if Buu arc Goku is 100 million (so as to be weaker than 100% Freeza), current Goku should be at like 500 million or something close to that. Clearly, that's leagues below SSj3 Gotenks, but a definite and palpable growth.

If we use the episode where SSj2 Goku fought on par with Ultimate Gohan, who was not at his current full power, but let's assume for the sake of convenience that it was his previous full power. Goku at SSj2 could go toe to toe with him. Also assuming that SSj3 is 4x SSj2, and taking into account how much stronger Ultimate Gohan initially was than Goku, we can calculate the progress Goku has made since the Buu arc. Going by this, he could be anywhere from 2 to 3,5 billion in base, or something like that. Still of course vastly inferior to SSj3 Gotenks, but you can't deny that this sort of growth is nothing short of impressive.

[ryan s]

I don't need the quotes from any episode, as they do not really go against anything of which it's been said so far.

1. You don't know what happened to the Super Saiyan Goku weeks or months after the BOG arc; in fact, the same Super Saiyan Goku is shown as trading blows on equalish terms with a Super Saiyan Gohan who's inferior to Ultimate Gohan from Z.

2. Vegeta is just stated to have become massively stronger than his old self; he could have got the Super Saiyan God only after understanding God's ki or his visit in Whis' staff. Vegeta is also never stated to have become as strong as a Super Saiyan God.

3. In later episodes, again, everyone makes a big deal of Goku's strength being god-like only when Blue. Combined with the weaker Super Saiyan Gohan's being portrayed as capable of trading blows with Goku -- which does nothing short of completely invalidating any "Goku is stronger than Buu arc's Super Saiyan Goku in base reasoning", #18's strength being quite apparently superior to Goku's, etc. they all make, again, your points about BOG clarifying anything completely moot.

1) the narrator establishes that he is still at the level of Gods months after the battle and Vegeta still states he has surpassed it months after the battle so what is your point? this can be shown because whis had visited the earth now and then as stated bulma so a huge amount of time has passed

2) so? Goku was as stronger than SSG in episode 18 yet Vegeta having no God ki was stronger than him

3) this literally has no point to it so what? if Goku's base was SSG and he can get 400 x stronger than it blue still makes him way stronger and near a god of destructions level therefore they would be shocked

you completely fail to understand the points and instead hide behind what ifs ie what if goku got weaker, what if this etc

1. No, I'm not arguing at all to up until that point. At the time of the tournament, Goku hasn't the "power of a god" because every other character says so, and that's all I need to prove. Your point that 60 episodes prior it was said he had it/some of it is, like I said, completely moot.

2. Goku's second base could have been stronger than Vegeta's normal base, which doubled its power. By the way, other than your bias towards the "theory I don't like" in itself this is circular reasoning: you're trying to disprove the idea of a second base by assuming the second base doesn't exist already.

3. I suppose the problem in accepting a common premise goes quite deep, then. You really think that characters say of the gods' benchmark is 1 (SSG) and after some episode becomes some 1,000/ 10,000/ 100,000? Notwithstanding that you might as well be assuming that every other character, including #18, Piccolo, reaches it by doing some simple training on their own, when Piccolo couldn't even become as strong as Super Saiyan Goku from the Buu arc after six years.

And like I said, with this kind of logic also can't justify Gohan: some of your points rests on the terminology of "chikara", while Piccolo said Gohan did not possess the same power ("chikara") when they fought. "Chikara" is statistcally always used to define "strength", which is used also in the episode synopsis, etc.; again, Gohan is in completely unambiguous terms not as strong as Ultimate Gohan up until ep. 95. This - for the nth time - completely invalidates all of your points, since that Gohan is at bare minimum stronger than base Goku.

1) i don't need to disprove that at all because Whis said if the top of that tree was the level of the gods, goku and vegeta would be a stump yet Goku was stated to be at the level of gods and had surpassed it meaning super sayain God not literally the highest tier of the gods, they just entered the realm

2) Goku "you may be even stronger than i am" clearly Goku is talking about his full power so if he had God ki that would be it obviously regardless vegeta without God ki would be stronger than SSG that is just a fact and again you are using silly what if's and throwing out obvious common sense of the statements whereas i am using facts from the show whereas you are using head canon and no quotes and just second guessing everything i say that is not good evidence, so you can't insult my reasoning

3) the level of gods is super sayain God, he surpassed super sayain god not literally the gods and their level

4) i have never stated Goku's base power was SSG level merly above ssj3 gotenks by quite a bit and that his SSJ form > SSG

i can easily by established facts debunk the theory

1) Goku absorbed all of SSG (confirmed by beerus and the narrator)
2) Goku surpassed SSG (confirmed by the narrator)
3) Goku kept the power months after the battle (vegeta and the narrator and evidence from bulma)
4) vegeta was stronger than Goku (stated by Goku himself)
5) Vegeta has never felt god ki until he entered that place


where is your evidence? you have provided nothing but head canon and what if's

[LowRyder2005]

1) the narrator establishes that he is still at the level of Gods months after the battle and Vegeta still states he has surpassed it months after the battle so what is your point? this can be shown because whis had visited the earth now and then as stated bulma so a huge amount of time has passed

2) so? Goku was as stronger than SSG in episode 18 yet Vegeta having no God ki was stronger than him

3) this literally has no point to it so what? if Goku's base was SSG and he can get 400 x stronger than it blue still makes him way stronger and near a god of destructions level therefore they would be shocked

you completely fail to understand the points and instead hide behind what ifs ie what if goku got weaker, what if this etc

1. No, I'm not arguing at all to up until that point. At the time of the tournament, Goku hasn't the "power of a god" because every other character says so, and that's all I need to prove. Your point that 60 episodes prior it was said he had it/some of it is, like I said, completely moot.

2. Goku's second base could have been stronger than Vegeta's normal base, which doubled its power. By the way, other than your bias towards the "theory I don't like" in itself this is circular reasoning: you're trying to disprove the idea of a second base by assuming the second base doesn't exist already.

3. I suppose the problem in accepting a common premise goes quite deep, then. You really think that characters say of the gods' benchmark is 1 (SSG) and after some episode becomes some 1,000/ 10,000/ 100,000? Notwithstanding that you might as well be assuming that every other character, including #18, Piccolo, reaches it by doing some simple training on their own, when Piccolo couldn't even become as strong as Super Saiyan Goku from the Buu arc after six years.

And like I said, with this kind of logic also can't justify Gohan: some of your points rests on the terminology of "chikara", while Piccolo said Gohan did not possess the same power ("chikara") when they fought. "Chikara" is statistcally always used to define "strength", which is used also in the episode synopsis, etc.; again, Gohan is in completely unambiguous terms not as strong as Ultimate Gohan up until ep. 95. This - for the nth time - completely invalidates all of your points, since that Gohan is at bare minimum stronger than base Goku.

1) i don't need to disprove that at all, whis said if the top of that tree was the level of the gods, goku and vegeta would be a stump yet Goku was stated to be at the level of gods and had surpassed it meaning super sayain God not literally the highest tier of the gods

2) Goku "you may be even stronger than i am" . clearly Goku is talking about his full power so if he had God ki that would be it obviously again you are using silly what ifs and throwing out obvious common sense. no i am using facts from the show whereas you are using head canon and no quotes

3) the level of gods is super sayain God, he surpassed super sayain god not literally the gods

This is getting trite. All right, let's assume for your argument's sake that #1 may make sense, then. That #2 does as well (even when you're using circular reasoning and apparently I have to give you a free pass at it) and that the same goes for #3, which is more or less the same point of #1.

You're concentrating your efforts on the tiniest hooks and crannies when, in Super, Gohan is not as strong as Ultimate Gohan and yet he's stronger than base Goku.
For all your talk about what-ifs, headcanons, and such in which I and apparently everyone else indulges in, care to give me a taste of yours as to how "Gohan's strength" is patently not "Gohan's strength" or as to how the Super Saiyan Goku who faced Super Saiyan Gohan needs to be massively weaker than the base Goku strenght you're promoting as the one and only in the show?

Because, like I said before, it's the main thing that makes all your points about your completely personal extrapolations on this or that statement 100% irrelevant. And it's not like you can really, if you have a shred of intellectual honesty, that is -- which at this point I honestly doubt, but it might be fun to hear yet another rant on how "this thing is dead11!" or "omg yall dont have common sense".

EDIT/ P.S./ Whatever: Spare everyone this "adding ten other paragraphs of what's basically the same stuff I said once" twenty minutes after you post; I can't be bothered adjusting my own answer to fit your edit, especially after realizing you're apparently only "inflating" your post by paraphrasing yourself and/or adding needless banter like "dem headcanonz, use common sense" and yadda, yadda, yadda.
If you can't put all in one post or limit yourself to minor edits, reflect ten more minutes before you hit that "Submit" button. Thank you. I'm sure everyone you discuss with in the future will only appreciate the effort too.

[ryan s]

1. No, I'm not arguing at all to up until that point. At the time of the tournament, Goku hasn't the "power of a god" because every other character says so, and that's all I need to prove. Your point that 60 episodes prior it was said he had it/some of it is, like I said, completely moot.

2. Goku's second base could have been stronger than Vegeta's normal base, which doubled its power. By the way, other than your bias towards the "theory I don't like" in itself this is circular reasoning: you're trying to disprove the idea of a second base by assuming the second base doesn't exist already.

3. I suppose the problem in accepting a common premise goes quite deep, then. You really think that characters say of the gods' benchmark is 1 (SSG) and after some episode becomes some 1,000/ 10,000/ 100,000? Notwithstanding that you might as well be assuming that every other character, including #18, Piccolo, reaches it by doing some simple training on their own, when Piccolo couldn't even become as strong as Super Saiyan Goku from the Buu arc after six years.

And like I said, with this kind of logic also can't justify Gohan: some of your points rests on the terminology of "chikara", while Piccolo said Gohan did not possess the same power ("chikara") when they fought. "Chikara" is statistcally always used to define "strength", which is used also in the episode synopsis, etc.; again, Gohan is in completely unambiguous terms not as strong as Ultimate Gohan up until ep. 95. This - for the nth time - completely invalidates all of your points, since that Gohan is at bare minimum stronger than base Goku.

1) i don't need to disprove that at all, whis said if the top of that tree was the level of the gods, goku and vegeta would be a stump yet Goku was stated to be at the level of gods and had surpassed it meaning super sayain God not literally the highest tier of the gods

2) Goku "you may be even stronger than i am" . clearly Goku is talking about his full power so if he had God ki that would be it obviously again you are using silly what ifs and throwing out obvious common sense. no i am using facts from the show whereas you are using head canon and no quotes

3) the level of gods is super sayain God, he surpassed super sayain god not literally the gods

This is getting trite. All right, let's assume for your argument's sake that #1 may make sense, then. That #2 does as well (even when you're using circular reasoning and apparently I have to give you a free pass at it) and that the same goes for #3, which is more or less the same point of #1.

You're concentrating your efforts on the tiniest hooks and crannies, when in Super, Gohan is not as strong as Ultimate Gohan and yet he's stronger than base Goku.
For all your talk about what-ifs, headcanons, and such in whichi I and apparently everyone else indulges in, care to give me a taste of yours as to how "Gohan's strength" is patently not "Gohan's strength" or as to how the Super Saiyan Goku who faced Super Saiyan Gohan needs to be massively weaker than the base Goku strenght you're promoting as the one and only in the show?

Because, like I said before, it's the main thing that makes all your points about your completely personal extrapolations on this or that statement 100% irrelevant. And it's not like you can really, if you have a shred of intellectual honesty, that is -- which at this point I honestly doubt, but it might be fun to hear yet another rant on how "this thing is dead11!" or "omg yall dont have common sense".

i am not using circular reasoning afterall i just gave a detailed list of facts that disprove it rather than insult me how about you attack my argument instead and be more productive

wait that makes no sense Gohan got destroyed by first form frieza yet base Goku dealt with final form frieza in his base form. are we making things up now? also in episode 90 SSJ2 Goku was dealing with mystic Gohan and mystic provides a bigger boost than SSJ2 and so base Goku > base Gohan and also when SSJ Goku faced SSJ Gohan they were sparing confirmed because Gohan a couple of episode later during the test tournament says father please see my power considering they spared a few days ago they clearly were not going all out and it was a sparing match

really this is just you lacking knowledge of the statements and straw manning me, my arguments may make sense? it's what herms directly says himself ie that it is referring to SSG the level of gods you're just to arrogant to admit you are wrong

even if i accept the two base theory

1) Goku absorbed all of SSG (confirmed by beerus and the narrator)
2) Goku surpassed SSG (confirmed by the narrator)
3) Goku kept the power months after the battle (vegeta and the narrator and evidence from bulma)
4) vegeta was stronger than Goku (stated by Goku himself)
5) Vegeta has never felt god ki until he entered that place

therefore SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Goku (god ki) > SSG

that is not circular that is just what the facts say and really you arguments have just fell apart and have resorted to acting pompous and like you are right but all the errors speak for them self

you talk abot me adding stuff and then you add stuff so pompous also please add a quote of piccolo saying Gohan posses less ki than when he fought buu because that is not said at all

[LowRyder2005]

insult me

Excuse me?

wait that makes no sense Gohan got destroyed by first form frieza yet base Goku dealt with final form frieza in his base form. are we making things up now? also in episode 90 SSJ2 Goku was dealing with mystic Gohan and mystic provides a bigger boost than SSJ2 so base Goku > base Gohan

Against Gohan, it makes quite no sense for Goku to power-up to Super Saiyan and power-down to 1/1000 of his Super Saiyan power. If anything, you're actually adhering to the notion that the base form is portrayed as having vastly differing levels of strength.

also when SSJ Goku faced SSJ Gohan they were sparing Gohan a couple of episode later during the test tournament says father please see my power. they spared a few days ago clearly not going all out and was a sparing match

This is irrelevant/unrelated, and if anything (2) you're implying that Gohan's Super Saiyan is even stronger than Goku's base than what one may have deduced from the ep. 70s.

really this is just you lacking knowledge of the statements and straw manning me

...

even if i accept the two base theory

1) Goku absorbed all of SSG (confirmed by beerus and the narrator)
2) Goku surpassed SSG (confirmed by the narrator)
3) Goku kept the power months after the battle (vegeta and the narrator and evidence from bulma)
4) vegeta was stronger than Goku (stated by Goku himself)
5) Vegeta has never felt god ki until he entered that place

therefore SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Goku > SSG

You haven't exactly disproved "Beyond God Goku < base Vegeta (post) < base Goku" if not for going "nuh-uh". Again, these points don't really add anything to the discussion and it again shows you're accepting "two bases can't exist" as a premise and not something you are trying to prove.

that is not circular that is just what the facts say really you arguments have just fell apart and have resorted to acting pompus and like you are right but all the errors speak for them self

It's funny going off about "my errors" implementing periods which if anything are completely criminal in regards to, say, punctuation. Not even starting with more intellectual things like bias and formal fallacies.

[LowRyder2005]

also please add a quote of piccolo saying Gohan posses less ki than when he fought buu because that is not said at all

Kindly google the episode or wait for more courteous users, then, because if you vehemently and bashfully ranted against other people or theories for so many posts without even addressing/knowing/factoring in this I don't see why I should really be bothered with doing the work for you.