Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

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Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Mercenary » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:53 pm

In the manga Vegeta seems to be on par with Goku or at least he can catch-up very quick ([spoiler]we can see this in the latest chapter of the manga[/spoiler])


But in the anime? He is pretty much being shafted, seems to be not one, but few step behind Goku and nothing really indicates that this current status quo will change. What do you think?

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Jigurashi » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:20 pm

I guess he does get it even a bit better than how AT gave Vegeta in the original manga. For the most part even in Toyo's manga, Goku is one step ahead of Vegeta, but Vegeta is portrayed as being capable of catching up pretty quickly. The anime's problem is it gives off the impression as if Goku is two steps ahead, which makes the whole Vegeta is Goku's "eternal rival" description laughable because I can't take him seriously as a rival in the anime. I feel it isn't so much that Toyo gives Vegeta a lot of love, more so that Toei just seems to fail to make him seem like a legit rival.

This is why I'm curious in what is Vegeta's role intended to be? Is he intended to be a serious rival for Goku? If not, him being far behind Goku isn't the big problem, the problem would be having him be far inferior to Goku despite wanting people to take him seriously as a rival. The manga and anime seem to have two different ways of portraying him to varying degrees. While both overall seem to still write Vegeta to make Goku look better, he gets the better deal in the manga as it portrays him as being capable of staying on par a lot of the time. While the anime portrays Goku has having little interest in Vegeta as a rival.
Last edited by Jigurashi on Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Doctor. » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:25 pm

What are you talking about? It's the exact opposite. It was blatantly obvious during the RoF arc of the anime that Vegeta had the upper-hand on Goku, seeing as how Goku comments he's a little bit stronger and Vegeta's the first one to notice Freeza's weakness. Whenever Toei are left to do whatever they want with the character, they give him tons of love.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Mercenary » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:27 pm

Doctor. wrote:What are you talking about? It's the exact opposite. It was blatantly obvious during the RoF arc of the anime that Vegeta had the upper-hand on Goku, seeing as how Goku comments he's a little bit stronger and Vegeta's the first one to notice Freeza's weakness. Whenever Toei are left to do whatever they want with the character, they give him tons of love.

Let me polemize, please.


It all started since U6 arc, right? Toyotaro didn't give Goku Kaioken and the only reason why Vegeta had lost to Hit was - he drained his energy really bad, when he was using SSB constantly.

He was capable of using only 10% of his true power, that's why he lost to Hit.


Then, Goku Black arc - Vegeta as a SSJ2 was portrayed to be even stronger than Goku SSJ3 and basically beat up Black twice (as a SSJ2 and as a SSG & SSB) while in the anime Vegeta was beaten up like...two times? And when he finally redeemed himself and beat up Black, Black just got this whole scythe stuff and creating dimensions and didn't even need to fuse with second Zamasu, while in the manga he WAS FORCED to do it because Vegeta totally destroyed him.

BTW. Toyotaro didn't even show who finished off Frieza in ROF arc so that makes me think that he didn't want to make Vegeta look like a fool again. [spoiler]And with the latest chapter - Vegeta pretty much caught up to Goku, mastered SSB, and Beerus gave props to him.[/spoiler] Vegeta is really beast in the manga, while in the anime he is just a common jobber. Not even worth attention of Goku

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by OLKv3 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:02 pm

Mercenary wrote:
Doctor. wrote:What are you talking about? It's the exact opposite. It was blatantly obvious during the RoF arc of the anime that Vegeta had the upper-hand on Goku, seeing as how Goku comments he's a little bit stronger and Vegeta's the first one to notice Freeza's weakness. Whenever Toei are left to do whatever they want with the character, they give him tons of love.

Let me polemize, please.


It all started since U6 arc, right? Toyotaro didn't give Goku Kaioken and the only reason why Vegeta had lost to Hit was - he drained his energy really bad, when he was using SSB constantly.

He was capable of using only 10% of his true power, that's why he lost to Hit.


Then, Goku Black arc - Vegeta as a SSJ2 was portrayed to be even stronger than Goku SSJ3 and basically beat up Black twice (as a SSJ2 and as a SSG & SSB) while in the anime Vegeta was beaten up like...two times? And when he finally redeemed himself and beat up Black, Black just got this whole scythe stuff and creating dimensions and didn't even need to fuse with second Zamasu, while in the manga he WAS FORCED to do it because Vegeta totally destroyed him.

BTW. Toyotaro didn't even show who finished off Frieza in ROF arc so that makes me think that he didn't want to make Vegeta look like a fool again. [spoiler]And with the latest chapter - Vegeta pretty much caught up to Goku, mastered SSB, and Beerus gave props to him.[/spoiler] Vegeta is really beast in the manga, while in the anime he is just a common jobber. Not even worth attention of Goku
I agree with what you're saying but I highly, highly doubt the number 1 fan of Toriyama's fanclub changed anything about the ending of RoF

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Mercenary » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:06 pm

OLKv3 wrote:
Mercenary wrote:
Doctor. wrote:What are you talking about? It's the exact opposite. It was blatantly obvious during the RoF arc of the anime that Vegeta had the upper-hand on Goku, seeing as how Goku comments he's a little bit stronger and Vegeta's the first one to notice Freeza's weakness. Whenever Toei are left to do whatever they want with the character, they give him tons of love.

Let me polemize, please.


It all started since U6 arc, right? Toyotaro didn't give Goku Kaioken and the only reason why Vegeta had lost to Hit was - he drained his energy really bad, when he was using SSB constantly.

He was capable of using only 10% of his true power, that's why he lost to Hit.


Then, Goku Black arc - Vegeta as a SSJ2 was portrayed to be even stronger than Goku SSJ3 and basically beat up Black twice (as a SSJ2 and as a SSG & SSB) while in the anime Vegeta was beaten up like...two times? And when he finally redeemed himself and beat up Black, Black just got this whole scythe stuff and creating dimensions and didn't even need to fuse with second Zamasu, while in the manga he WAS FORCED to do it because Vegeta totally destroyed him.

BTW. Toyotaro didn't even show who finished off Frieza in ROF arc so that makes me think that he didn't want to make Vegeta look like a fool again. [spoiler]And with the latest chapter - Vegeta pretty much caught up to Goku, mastered SSB, and Beerus gave props to him.[/spoiler] Vegeta is really beast in the manga, while in the anime he is just a common jobber. Not even worth attention of Goku
I agree with what you're saying but I highly, highly doubt the number 1 fan of Toriyama's fanclub changed anything about the ending of RoF

I didn't say he change. I just said he didn't show who had finished off Frieza and didn't show Vegeta getting tricked by blowing up the planet.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:50 am

Yes definitely Vegeta gets so much fan service it's kind of ridiculous for example, the opening of the chapter of the U.S arc was pointless really and makes Vegeta a bit of jerk that he's off gallivanting with Beerus and Whis for no reason yet while his wife is pregnant back home.

This is the type of of writing that isn't gonna make him Toriyama successor.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:47 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Yes definitely Vegeta gets so much fan service it's kind of ridiculous for example, the opening of the chapter of the U.S arc was pointless really and makes Vegeta a bit of jerk that he's off gallivanting with Beerus and Whis for no reason yet while his wife is pregnant back home.

This is the type of of writing that isn't gonna make him Toriyama successor.
... And what part of that classifies as fanservice? By themselves "exposure" or shifting the point-of-view are anything but bad since, y'know, usually help the author building his characters and stories. :|

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by LightBing » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:11 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Yes definitely Vegeta gets so much fan service it's kind of ridiculous for example, the opening of the chapter of the U.S arc was pointless really and makes Vegeta a bit of jerk that he's off gallivanting with Beerus and Whis for no reason yet while his wife is pregnant back home.

This is the type of of writing that isn't gonna make him Toriyama successor.
Showing the character progression is now fan service?

You know due dates can be predicted accurately. That's why he stops his training to be with Bulma. Also how is getting stronger, one of the main reasons the character lives for is "gallivanting for no reason"? Something which Goku is always doing during the series, your're telling me almost all of Goku actions are for no reason?

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Zeru14 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:01 am

Definitely, the manga had Vegeta be the originator of the Red-Blue transformation tactic. While the anime treats Goku as the one to do it.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Hawk9211 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:07 am

Zeru14 wrote:Definitely, the manga had Vegeta be the originator of the Red-Blue transformation tactic. While the anime treats Goku as the one to do it.
Goku did it before in U6 tournament arc vegeta just perfected it.
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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:44 am

Mercenary wrote:
Doctor. wrote:What are you talking about? It's the exact opposite. It was blatantly obvious during the RoF arc of the anime that Vegeta had the upper-hand on Goku, seeing as how Goku comments he's a little bit stronger and Vegeta's the first one to notice Freeza's weakness. Whenever Toei are left to do whatever they want with the character, they give him tons of love.

Let me polemize, please.


It all started since U6 arc, right? Toyotaro didn't give Goku Kaioken and the only reason why Vegeta had lost to Hit was - he drained his energy really bad, when he was using SSB constantly.

He was capable of using only 10% of his true power, that's why he lost to Hit.


Then, Goku Black arc - Vegeta as a SSJ2 was portrayed to be even stronger than Goku SSJ3 and basically beat up Black twice (as a SSJ2 and as a SSG & SSB) while in the anime Vegeta was beaten up like...two times? And when he finally redeemed himself and beat up Black, Black just got this whole scythe stuff and creating dimensions and didn't even need to fuse with second Zamasu, while in the manga he WAS FORCED to do it because Vegeta totally destroyed him.

BTW. Toyotaro didn't even show who finished off Frieza in ROF arc so that makes me think that he didn't want to make Vegeta look like a fool again. [spoiler]And with the latest chapter - Vegeta pretty much caught up to Goku, mastered SSB, and Beerus gave props to him.[/spoiler] Vegeta is really beast in the manga, while in the anime he is just a common jobber. Not even worth attention of Goku
You've summed up why I don't like the manga compared to the anime. Not that I don't like Vegeta, but all these little changes undermine the threat of villains. We all complain about the trope of the rival who gets jobbed to make the hero look good, but those tropes exist for a reason. Anime Black slaughters Vegeta the first time he becomes Rose and we have a new contender for all-time great Dragon Ball villain. Manga Black gets slaughtered by Vegeta and it's like "why should we care?" I don't think that's nearly as egregious as the fact that Vegeta got the final blow on Zamasu instead of Trunks. That's outright disgusting.

The 10% power excuse doesn't reflect well on Hit either. The U6 tournament was already heavily skewed toward Goku and Vegeta, it didn't need that caveat to undermine the one character who could properly challenge them. I honestly don't think Vegeta's been badly represented in Super, the manga doesn't need to keep undermining other characters to build him up.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by sintzu » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:29 am

It's one of the reason I prefer the manga to the anime. In the Champa arc they found a way to take him out without humiliating him and making Goku overpowered, in the Black arc he was the main protagonist for most of it & the current arc started with a great fight between him and Beerus. This is how I expected Vegeta to be written after the Buu arc but the anime continues to drop the ball with him in favore of forcing Goku down out throats.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote: Vegeta gets so much fan service it's kind of ridiculous

The opening of the chapter of the U.S arc makes Vegeta a bit of jerk that he's off gallivanting with Beerus and Whis for no reason yet while his wife is pregnant back home.

This is the type of of writing that isn't gonna make him Toriyama successor.
What's fan service about what he's done ? showing the story from others' point of view is just the author not wanting to use the same characters all the time.

How does that make him a jerk ? he went back right away so it seems like he was just there for a day. Just because she's pregnant doesn't mean he has to stay at home 24/7.

He already is.
Hawk9211 wrote:
Zeru14 wrote:Definitely, the manga had Vegeta be the originator of the Red-Blue transformation tactic. While the anime treats Goku as the one to do it.
Goku did it before in U6 tournament arc vegeta just perfected it.
Goku just went from Ssj to SsjG to SsjB. Vegeta is the one who was able to switch between them which is something the anime has seemingly given to Goku :yawn: .
Kataphrut wrote:We all complain about the trope of the rival who gets jobbed to make the hero look good, but those tropes exist for a reason.

Manga Black gets slaughtered by Vegeta and it's like "why should we care?"

I don't think that's nearly as egregious as the fact that Vegeta got the final blow on Zamasu instead of Trunks. That's outright disgusting.

I honestly don't think Vegeta's been badly represented in Super.

The manga doesn't need to keep undermining other characters to build him up.
He jobbed because of how blinded he was, once he opened his eyes at the end of the Buu arc he shouldn't be in that position anymore and thankfully the manga knows this.

Because Black got back up and beat him, Vegeta beating him at first was to build up Rose unlike what the anime did where it and his base form are pretty much equal.

Vegeta getting the final blow on a villain was loooooooong overdue.

In the Champa arc Goku made him look like nothing with the Kaioken. Black made him look like an idiot who had no battle experience during their first fight, when they fought him again he just stood there doing nothing and when he finally got to "beat" him, he got back up and cornered him with those clones. He's done nothing so far in the current arc.

Yes it does, the world is a better place with Vegeta on top. :mrgreen:
Last edited by sintzu on Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Totamo » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:55 am

Yes and when a manga does a gag about Goku, it tends to go far above than what the anime did.



I don't think Toyo likes Goku.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by sintzu » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:56 am

Totamo wrote:I don't think Toyo likes Goku.
He said he's his favorite character and it shows during his fight with Merged Zamasu.
Mercenary wrote:Toyotaro didn't even show who finished off Frieza in ROF arc so that makes me think that he didn't want to make Vegeta look like a fool again.
RF was made to show where Goku and Vegeta need to improve, Goku lets his gaurd down so he got taken out through a small laser gun while Vegeta was overthinking Freeza's death and it cost him his life and earth. Toyotarou didn't even show Goku's fight with Freeza in his golden form.

They skipped it to not waste anymore time with retellings and to get to the new content.
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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:09 am

sintzu wrote: Vegeta getting the final blow on a villain was loooooooong overdue.
Of the three heroes in that story, Vegeta had the least connection to Zamasu and Black. He was just there to back up his son/avenge his alternate wife/because he couldn't let Goku go off and fight without him (take your pick). Whereas Zamasu' beef with Trunks and Goku was very personal. Their actions motivated his descent into villainy and his actions directly targeted and hurt them the most.

So even if you believe Vegeta needs a win (I don't; the moment Vegeta eclipses Goku, he loses all meaning as a character), it certainly shouldn't have been Zamasu. Trunks would never get another chance at a win like that, it's bad enough what episode 67 did to it, let alone the manga twisting the knife further by making him a secondary player.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by sintzu » Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:21 am

Kataphrut wrote:Vegeta had the least connection to Zamasu and Black. He was just there to back up his son/avenge his alternate wife.

The moment Vegeta eclipses Goku, he loses all meaning as a character.
Just ? someone killing your wife and trying to kill your son isn't enough to build a connection between you 2 ?

How so ? Vegeta doesn't just exist to make Goku look good. Look at Sasuke, he's Naruto's rival but he's his own character who's never there to make Naruto look good. If a rival is written just to prep up the main character then that's bad writing. Plus Vegeta's eclipsed Goku in the past as well so Why is it an issue now ?
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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:38 am

sintzu wrote: Just ? someone killing your wife and trying to kill your son isn't enough to build a connection between you 2 ?

How so ? Vegeta doesn't just exist to make Goku look good. Look at Sasuke, he's Naruto's rival but he's his own character who's never there to make Naruto look good. If a rival is written just to prep up the main character then that's bad writing. Plus Vegeta's eclipsed Goku in the past as well so Why is it an issue now ?
Not as much as it does with the son himself :)

I'm just tired of the constant back-and-forth between the two, especially since Vegeta's character development peaked with the Buu arc where, lest we forget, he came to terms with not being as strong as Goku. Him catching up again in Super wasn't too bad since at the start the rivalry felt, for lack of a better word, healthier than it did in Z. But recently it feels like he's regressed into being obsessed with surpassing Goku again, which is boring since we know Goku has to be the strongest. It's one of the reasons why I prefer Kaioken to Mastered SSB: it provides that clear gap that Vegeta will never cross, but at the same time doesn't give Goku a free ride because he can't use it for long.

And I can only think of three times where he was clearly stronger than Goku: Saiyan saga as a villain, Cell saga where he let his pride get the better of him and screwed everything up, and Battle of Gods which lasted for about five minutes.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by sintzu » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:53 am

Kataphrut wrote:Not as much as it does with the son himself :)

It feels like he's regressed into being obsessed with surpassing Goku again.

And I can only think of three times where he was clearly stronger than Goku: Saiyan saga as a villain, Cell saga where he let his pride get the better of him and screwed everything up, and Battle of Gods which lasted for about five minutes.
Yes it does, he killed his wife plus his son can't fight him so it's his job to take over.

In the Buu arc he said Goku was better, not that he won't try to catch up. He just doesn't hate him and want him dead like before. There are better writers here than me so if I try to improve my writing does that mean I'm going against what I said about them being better ?

He saved Goku from #19. Piccolo even said that he might've been stronger. He also helped Goku get his body back from Ginyu, pulled Buu out of Buu and came up with the methoed of which Goku used to kill him.
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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by TBMx » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:01 am

No, not really. Toyotaro just treats Vegeta the way every other shonen anime treats the hero's archrival. This is how Beyblade treats Kai Hiwatari. How Yugioh treats Seto Kaiba. How Hikaru No Go treats Akira Toya. How Naruto treats Sasuke. I could go on. It seems surprising to dragonball fans, and seems like the author is a Vegeta fan, because they're not used to it.

Now Toriyama and Toei don't hate Vegeta per se, I can't imagine any writer or company being immature enough to hate their own character, they just has a massive hard on for Goku that makes all other characters minor. Really minor by comparison. Meaning the anime stands or falls on Goku alone. Just like Dragonball GT.
The moment Vegeta eclipses Goku, he loses all meaning as a character.
He has no meaning in the anime. He's just there.

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