Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Totamo » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:12 am

TBMx wrote:No, not really. Toyotaro just treats Vegeta the way every other shonen anime treats the hero's archrival. This is how Beyblade treats Kai Hiwatari. How Yugioh treats Seto Kaiba. How Hikaru No Go treats Akira Toya. How Naruto treats Sasuke. I could go on. It seems surprising to dragonball fans, and seems like the author is a Vegeta fan, because they're not used to it.

Now Toriyama and Toei don't hate Vegeta per se, I can't imagine any writer or company being immature enough to hate their own character, they just has a massive hard on for Goku that makes all other characters minor. Really minor by comparison. Meaning the anime stands or falls on Goku alone. Just like Dragonball GT.
The moment Vegeta eclipses Goku, he loses all meaning as a character.
He has no meaning in the anime. He's just there.
No, Toriyama does not like Vegeta. Its his least favorite character He only kept him around because he is easy to write for and he is great at moving the story.

And here is the difference between the Vegeta and everyone else you listed, Goku never cared nor ever saw Vegeta as his rival. Especially not in super, where he is now focused on Hit.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Totamo » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:24 am

sintzu wrote:
Kataphrut wrote:Vegeta had the least connection to Zamasu and Black. He was just there to back up his son/avenge his alternate wife.

The moment Vegeta eclipses Goku, he loses all meaning as a character.
Just ? someone killing your wife and trying to kill your son isn't enough to build a connection between you 2 ?

How so ? Vegeta doesn't just exist to make Goku look good. Look at Sasuke, he's Naruto's rival but he's his own character who's never there to make Naruto look good. If a rival is written just to prep up the main character then that's bad writing. Plus Vegeta's eclipsed Goku in the past as well so Why is it an issue now ?
Yes, he does. Sauske exist to amplify Naruto's ideology by going against it.


Rivals being used to prep up main characters are why they even exist. They are there to be beaten


And no, Vegeta has never eclipsed Goku, at least not for more than a couple episodes or chapters. Goku always had something up his sleeve.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by TBMx » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:55 am

Totamo wrote: No, Toriyama does not like Vegeta. Its his least favorite character He only kept him around because he is easy to write for and he is great at moving the story.

And here is the difference between the Vegeta and everyone else you listed, Goku never cared nor ever saw Vegeta as his rival. Especially not in super, where he is now focused on Hit.
The quote where he implied he doesn't like Vegeta was a long time ago. He since said something about giving Vegeta a main role: http://thedaoofdragonball.com/blog/news ... geta-hero/

Not that he will ever make good on that, as he and Toei are to tunnel visioned on Goku for that.

As for Goku's attention being on Hit in the anime, Hit is beginning to take the role of being there to make Goku look good. In the episode that made me quit watching, Goku saves him in "dramatic" fashion like he's a damsel in distress and goes straight through the attack Hit had to avoid.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Totamo » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:18 am

TBMx wrote:
Totamo wrote: No, Toriyama does not like Vegeta. Its his least favorite character He only kept him around because he is easy to write for and he is great at moving the story.

And here is the difference between the Vegeta and everyone else you listed, Goku never cared nor ever saw Vegeta as his rival. Especially not in super, where he is now focused on Hit.
The quote where he implied he doesn't like Vegeta was a long time ago. He since said something about giving Vegeta a main role: http://thedaoofdragonball.com/blog/news ... geta-hero/

Not that he will ever make good on that, as he and Toei are to tunnel visioned on Goku for that.

As for Goku's attention being on Hit in the anime, Hit is beginning to take the role of being there to make Goku look good. In the episode that made me quit watching, Goku saves him in "dramatic" fashion like he's a damsel in distress and goes straight through the attack Hit had to avoid.
Which he did not do probably because he didn't like vegeta.

Yes, thats what rivals do. Make the other guy look good.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Basako » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:25 am

I think he has had so much battle time in the manga, Vegeta has a strong fanbase and he will always be there. But he is mostly one step behind Goku. He just got the mastered SSB.

He will have a big win in the tournament, but he'll probably lose to Jiren. We know the story.
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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:38 am

sintzu wrote: Yes it does, he killed his wife plus his son can't fight him so it's his job to take over.

In the Buu arc he said Goku was better, not that he won't try to catch up. He just doesn't hate him and want him dead like before. There are better writers here than me so if I try to improve my writing does that mean I'm going against what I said about them being better ?

He saved Goku from #19. Piccolo even said that he might've been stronger. He also helped Goku get his body back from Ginyu, pulled Buu out of Buu and came up with the methoed of which Goku used to kill him.
I'm getting a little tired of the back-and-forth so won't try to carry it on for much longer, but here goes.

The Bulma that died wasn't "his" Bulma, it was Future Trunks'. And getting back to my original point, I prefer the anime's pre-Zeno ending where Trunks does in fact defeat Zamasu. Cards on the table, I like the Spirit Sword, I don't care about the logical shenangians, I felt it was a satisfying climax that tied into the major themes of the arc and allowed Trunks to re-earn his role as the Bringer of Hope to his world instead of relying on his dad to do it for him. Vegeta's role in that story was to be to Trunks what Goku was to Gohan in the Cell arc. They even did a Father-Son Galick Gun. If Vegeta ever had to get a win against a main villain, it shouldn't have been in that arc.

I felt like Vegeta was one of the best characters throughout most of Super, it's only very recently, like post Bra-birth where he seems to have regressed into being obsessed with surpassing Goku again. Before, he seemed willing to accept he was at his limits with Super Saiyan Blue and wanted to pass the torch on to folks like Cabba and Future Trunks. Ironically he's gone through the same regression Goku did after coming back in the Buu saga; he's stopped caring about the next generation surpassing him and back to being obsessed with his own growth. And that means he's back to being aloof and going on and on about needing to be "the best" again. It's boring compared to the interesting characterisation we had up to now.

All the examples you put of Vegeta being better are actually just examples where Goku was weakened by another influence. Him being stronger than Goku when he showed up as Super Saiyan for the first time is much of a muchness since both of them were well above #19. I don't know if you've watched the ep where they went inside Buu recently, but Goku was carrying Vegeta through most of it. Vegeta was only able to pull Fat Buu out because Super Buu's attention was on Goku and he didn't notice Vegeta had regained consciousness and made it over to Buu's pod.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by sintzu » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:53 am

Totamo wrote:Yes, he does. Sauske exist to amplify Naruto's ideology by going against it.


Rivals being used to prep up main characters are why they even exist. They are there to be beaten.
He has the same idiology as Naruto now and is just as interesting if not more than before.

I guess it's a good thing Toyotarou doesn't think so.
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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by TBMx » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:59 am

Totamo wrote:
TBMx wrote:
Totamo wrote: No, Toriyama does not like Vegeta. Its his least favorite character He only kept him around because he is easy to write for and he is great at moving the story.

And here is the difference between the Vegeta and everyone else you listed, Goku never cared nor ever saw Vegeta as his rival. Especially not in super, where he is now focused on Hit.
The quote where he implied he doesn't like Vegeta was a long time ago. He since said something about giving Vegeta a main role: http://thedaoofdragonball.com/blog/news ... geta-hero/

Not that he will ever make good on that, as he and Toei are to tunnel visioned on Goku for that.

As for Goku's attention being on Hit in the anime, Hit is beginning to take the role of being there to make Goku look good. In the episode that made me quit watching, Goku saves him in "dramatic" fashion like he's a damsel in distress and goes straight through the attack Hit had to avoid.
Which he did not do probably because he didn't like vegeta.

Yes, thats what rivals do. Make the other guy look good.
Someone who didn't like Vegeta wouldn't say it to begin with.

Rivals aren't there to just look like crap compared to the hero. They're supposed to actually test him. Hit did test Goku, as did Vegeta at one point as did Piccolo. But very soon Goku will be far beyond Hit or Vegeta. Goku has no archrival in the anime. he just has a rival of the month then moves on. Toriyama wrote Vegeta as Goku's final opponent in Dragonball Online, leading some to say Vegeta is Goku's eternal rival, but that doesn't exist in the Super anime. You say Goku's attention is focused on Hit. Not it's not. It's focused on Jiren. Hit is so last year.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Zeru14 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:48 pm

I find it irksome that the anime hasn't had Vegeta utilize the SSJ God form, like his manga counterpart, especially with all the potential merchandise they could get from it.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Lionel » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:08 pm

Vegeta might not be the greatest benchmark for Goku like he once was during the Saiyan arc, but he's still been granted far more narrative clemency than his predecessors. Once a rival had their climactic showdown with Goku, that was it; the following arc would put them in the passenger's seat as Goku's ancillary before he slowly starts to overtake them by training with the next grandmaster of the story. It was like this with Tenshinhan and again with Piccolo. Vegeta has been able to escape from falling into that cycle somehow, most likely through what others have described as Toriyama finding him to be an easy contrivance in moving the story along. Plus, Vegeta happens to be of the same species as Goku so that makes it even easier to write for him keeping pace with him; not that the previously two described rivals couldn't maintain a pace if they were furnished with certain gifts like the Kaioken, but we can't have that, no.

Good for Vegeta that the author still takes the time to give him a leg up in the story. No one else can boast for having that kind of privilege and commitment.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Miracles » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:30 am

Vegeta's favorable circumstances in the manga show that he is better than his anime counterpart.
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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Jigurashi » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:16 am

In comparison to the anime? Yeah. Toyo treats Vegeta more like an equal to Goku where Goku is mostly one step ahead but not to a very large degree. In the original manga and Super's anime though, he's more blatantly written to be inferior to Goku. After the Saiyan Saga, he wasn't written to be Goku's equal, he was written to be his inferior. Which is the big difference between Vegeta and other rival characters. Vegeta isn't much of a rival in the anime and isn't portrayed as one worth taking seriously so I don't have much of a problem with him being weaker than Goku a great deal, especially since their "rivalry" has been one-sided for a long time now. Super's put its focus on Hitto and now Jiren, and Goku is still trying to get Freeza to be a rival. I personally don't care that Vegeta is massively weaker than Goku in he anime. But it's also the fact that they make him massively weaker but expect me to take him seriously as a rival when they don't portray him as being anywhere capable of being a legit rival to Goku. His interactions with Goku in the manga and anime for me are stale as fuck also imo. I've been greatly enjoying Goku in the anime interacting with Freeza, Gohan, 17, Roshi, and Kuririn recently way more than Vegeta.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by KuririnNoKotoKa » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:25 am

Toyotaro is a fan, so it's expected that he would write like one, which includes trying to play a rivalry that isn't really there to begin with, but totally exists in the fandom's perception of it, regardless of it being a detriment to both characters by this point.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Kinokima » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:48 pm

Everything Toyotaro writes is approved by Toriyama. If Toriyama didn't agree with where Toyotaro was taking Vegeta he would say so. Maybe Toyotaro does love Vegeta (although he has said in interviews that Goku is his favorite) but then so do a lot of fans. Vegeta is probably the second most popular character after Goku so giving a popular character attention is not exactly odd.

I am more caught up to the anime than the manga. If the manga has even more scenes that will make me happy as a Vegeta fan than fantastic but I don't really see how the anime is treating Vegeta badly in comparison. Again I am at a loss why fans need Vegeta to be stronger than Goku? It's not going to happen. But Vegeta as a character continues to grow both in strength and other ways. It's wonderful to me to see Vegeta pretty much fully embrace his role on Earth. Of course that happened at the end of the Buu saga but in Super you actually get to see it play out. And just because Vegeta isn't number 1 doesn't mean he doesn't have moments to shine. Although of course I'd love him to win more fights but when it comes to Goku everyone loses in terms of winning fights not just Vegeta. Also while Goku is stronger, Vegeta is definitely not massively weaker than Goku in the anime. That is as ridiculous as saying Vegeta is stronger than Goku.

I do think the rivalry is more one sided because as I said in another thread Goku is always looking to the next strongest fighter and Vegeta is always looking to Goku. But people seem to think a rivalry can only be done in one way. Storytelling wise Vegeta still grows because of his feelings towards Goku and as fan that is still enjoyable for me to watch. Not to mention where in the past the rivalry was more antagonistic on Vegeta's part I feel now it has turned into something positive & fun. To me Vegeta and Goku have become like an old married couple. I guess not everyone likes to feel comfortable with the characters but I personally love the relationship that has developed between them.

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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by Miracles » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:07 pm

Kinokima wrote:Everything Toyotaro writes is approved by Toriyama. If Toriyama didn't agree with where Toyotaro was taking Vegeta he would say so...
This is true. The way Vegeta is in the manga or anime...It's Toriyama's Vegeta still!
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Re: Is it just me or Vegeta gets a lot of love from Toyotaro?

Post by ChronoTwigger » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:12 am

Vegeta could do and say things Goku can't. That's why an author could focus on him easily.
I think Toyotaro give something more to Vegeta as Goku is too much iconic (less "human") and actually doesn't have any real goal ("wanna be strongerrrr" is not a narrative goal).
As an author, I really find Vegeta more interesting now. That could be the reason I feel too Toyotaro is givin something more to him.
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