People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by sintzu » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:29 am

Vegeta-Sama wrote:I want this Goku back, not this clown we have in Super.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75gUJ_4SyY0
We'll never get that again. It seems like Toei are trying to make him as Luffy like as possible, never mind the fact that it was Goku who inspired Oda to create Luffy.
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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Zagacious » Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:27 am

Jigurashi wrote:
Zagacious wrote:
Jigurashi wrote: That doesn't really work since Gohan and 17 aren't so much weaker than Goku to the point where they couldn't replicate what he did against just about everyone he's fought in the tournament so far.

As supposed to the suspense of him effortlessly defeating everyone? Okay

That's exactly the point, the people that Goku defeated were a lot weaker than him, what's enjoyable about seeing him KO people who have no chance? Android 17 and Gohan wouldn't just one shot everybody once they took it seriously that's what would make it a better fight.
But they would that's the problem, Gohan and 17 would one-shot the people Goku beat if they fought seriously. Neither of the two are far off from SSB Goku, who could one-shot everyone he beat so far, meaning Gohan and 17 would do the same unless they held back like Goku did, so how is that anymore exciting? The same thing literally applies to Gohan and 17. I'm not sure why you think it'd be more exciting to see Gohan or 17 one-shot and am even more confused why you think it'd be more of a fight if Gohan or 17 were serious.

If you actually believe Android 17 and Gohan are close to Goku SSB in power then there's really nothing to discuss.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Jigurashi » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:23 am

Zagacious wrote:
Jigurashi wrote:
Zagacious wrote:

As supposed to the suspense of him effortlessly defeating everyone? Okay

That's exactly the point, the people that Goku defeated were a lot weaker than him, what's enjoyable about seeing him KO people who have no chance? Android 17 and Gohan wouldn't just one shot everybody once they took it seriously that's what would make it a better fight.
But they would that's the problem, Gohan and 17 would one-shot the people Goku beat if they fought seriously. Neither of the two are far off from SSB Goku, who could one-shot everyone he beat so far, meaning Gohan and 17 would do the same unless they held back like Goku did, so how is that anymore exciting? The same thing literally applies to Gohan and 17. I'm not sure why you think it'd be more exciting to see Gohan or 17 one-shot and am even more confused why you think it'd be more of a fight if Gohan or 17 were serious.

If you actually believe Android 17 and Gohan are close to Goku SSB in power then there's really nothing to discuss.
This applies more to yourself tbh. Besides the fact the narrator himself stated that Gohan rivals Goku's power but let's ignore that to pretend like SSB Goku is leaps and bounds above him or 17. But if you want to continue believing they're several tiers below SSB Goku that's fine, but it doesn't make your point any stronger when your claiming something that's false.
sintzu wrote:
Vegeta-Sama wrote:I want this Goku back, not this clown we have in Super.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75gUJ_4SyY0
We'll never get that again. It seems like Toei are trying to make him as Luffy like as possible, never mind the fact that it was Goku who inspired Oda to create Luffy.
I'd argue Goku was just as good as he was in that clip in both fights with Hitto and for most of the FT Saga.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Lionel » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:28 am

You know at this point I think most of us might feel compelled to take things in strides. It won't stop us from dissecting every scene, but I can understand the sentiment some have for emptying your brain for the show.

I didn't see anyone complain when Tao surpassed Karin, another god, through cybernetic upgrades back in DB. Gohan and #17 reaching god level now sounds about the same, even though I personally believe the latter requires a greater leap of faith in some ways than the former does.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:48 am

Zagacious wrote:If you actually believe Android 17 and Gohan are close to Goku SSB in power then there's really nothing to discuss.
You never know with power levels in Super lol, it is also under my impression 17 and Gohan aren't so far behind.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Kanassa » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:21 am

sintzu wrote:
Vegeta-Sama wrote:I want this Goku back, not this clown we have in Super.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75gUJ_4SyY0
We'll never get that again.
We never lost that Goku.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Shaqazooloo » Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:00 pm

I skipped episode 104 because they pretty much just shoe-horned Goku into a fight where his presence was most likely not needed. My main problem with him this arc and why I could deal with him in other arcs is that Goku's being forced onto us. I think Caulifla has a similar problem (makes sense, she is his counter-part) and I dislike her for the same reason.

Caulifla is getting too many powerups too fast, is getting tons of attention and the writers obviously want her to be something big. She's basically the Roman Reigns of Dragon Ball Super, it all comes off as feeling unnatural and forced.

Goku's screen-time and focus in previous arcs made sense and felt natural, here however, it doesn't make sense with the battle royale setting and the 48 minute time limit. They brought back all these other characters only to mostly focus on Goku? They gave the ToP a 48 minute time limit to have Goku be involved in most of the action, making the 48 minute time limit not believable and confusing? Having Goku get involved with everything, either on his own or someone attacking him has felt unnatural and forced. He's basically the John Cena of this battle royale at this point.

I can atleast tolerate Caulifla because I don't hate her character, just that she's forced on the audience. Goku on the other hand, i've grown to dislike his character over the course of the show, so when they start forcing him down my throat it's almost unbearable.

It doesn't help that the tournament feels like it was booked by the WWE creative team! Okay i'll stop with the WWE comparisons, but I got one more. Jiren is the Brock Lesner of the ToP except he actually gets more screen-time in this one battle royale than Brock Lesner gets in a full year.
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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by HeroR » Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:18 pm

Shaqazooloo wrote:I skipped episode 104 because they pretty much just shoe-horned Goku into a fight where his presence was most likely not needed. My main problem with him this arc and why I could deal with him in other arcs is that Goku's being forced onto us. I think Caulifla has a similar problem (makes sense, she is his counter-part) and I dislike her for the same reason.

Caulifla is getting too many powerups too fast, is getting tons of attention and the writers obviously want her to be something big. She's basically the Roman Reigns of Dragon Ball Super, it all comes off as feeling unnatural and forced.

Goku's screen-time and focus in previous arcs made sense and felt natural, here however, it doesn't make sense with the battle royale setting and the 48 minute time limit. They brought back all these other characters only to mostly focus on Goku? They gave the ToP a 48 minute time limit to have Goku be involved in most of the action, making the 48 minute time limit not believable and confusing? Having Goku get involved with everything, either on his own or someone attacking him has felt unnatural and forced. He's basically the John Cena of this battle royale at this point.

I can atleast tolerate Caulifla because I don't hate her character, just that she's forced on the audience. Goku on the other hand, i've grown to dislike his character over the course of the show, so when they start forcing him down my throat it's almost unbearable.

It doesn't help that the tournament feels like it was booked by the WWE creative team! Okay i'll stop with the WWE comparisons, but I got one more. Jiren is the Brock Lesner of the ToP except he actually gets more screen-time in this one battle royale than Brock Lesner gets in a full year.
How is Cali forced? In this tourument she wasn't in 97, got a brief easy to miss appearance in 98, wasn't in 99, got focused in Episodes 100 and 101, wasn't in 102 or 103, and get some scenes in 104. Since the tourument started she's been in four out of eight epsoides and only got primary focused in two. And Kale had taking up the same amount of scene time.

And I find it funny that you said 104 shoehorned Goku while you also admit not even seeing the epsoide.

Finally, most of Goku's scene time happened because people were attacking him. 98 happened because U9 targeted him. 100, Cali target him when he was fighting someone else. 101, all those Pride Troopers came after him on Toppo's order. 102, the magical girls attacked him along with Vegeta and 17. 103, Goku finishes the fight with the magical girl. 104 is the only epsoide after 97 that Goku jumped into a fight.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Shaqazooloo » Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:44 pm

HeroR wrote:
Shaqazooloo wrote:I skipped episode 104 because they pretty much just shoe-horned Goku into a fight where his presence was most likely not needed. My main problem with him this arc and why I could deal with him in other arcs is that Goku's being forced onto us. I think Caulifla has a similar problem (makes sense, she is his counter-part) and I dislike her for the same reason.

Caulifla is getting too many powerups too fast, is getting tons of attention and the writers obviously want her to be something big. She's basically the Roman Reigns of Dragon Ball Super, it all comes off as feeling unnatural and forced.

Goku's screen-time and focus in previous arcs made sense and felt natural, here however, it doesn't make sense with the battle royale setting and the 48 minute time limit. They brought back all these other characters only to mostly focus on Goku? They gave the ToP a 48 minute time limit to have Goku be involved in most of the action, making the 48 minute time limit not believable and confusing? Having Goku get involved with everything, either on his own or someone attacking him has felt unnatural and forced. He's basically the John Cena of this battle royale at this point.

I can atleast tolerate Caulifla because I don't hate her character, just that she's forced on the audience. Goku on the other hand, i've grown to dislike his character over the course of the show, so when they start forcing him down my throat it's almost unbearable.

It doesn't help that the tournament feels like it was booked by the WWE creative team! Okay i'll stop with the WWE comparisons, but I got one more. Jiren is the Brock Lesner of the ToP except he actually gets more screen-time in this one battle royale than Brock Lesner gets in a full year.
How is Cali forced? In this tourument she was in 97 with the rest of the teams, got a brief easy to miss appearance in 98, wasn't in 99, got focused in Episodes 100 and 101, wasn't in 102 or 103, and get some scenes in 104. Since the tourument started she's been in five out of eight and only got primary focused in two. And Kale had taking up the same amount of scene time.

And I find it funny that you said 104 shoehorned Goku while you also admit not even seeing the epsoide.

Finally, most of Goku's scene time happened because people were attacking him. 98 happened because U9 targeted him. 100, Cali target him when he was fighting someone else. 101, all those Pride Troopers came after him on Toppo's order. 102, the magical girls attacked him along with Vegeta and 17. 103, Goku finishes the fight with the magical girl. 104 is the only epsoide after 97 that Goku jumped into a fight.
Not to be rude or anything, but I feel like you didn't read my post fully...

I said Caulifla is forced, but not in regards to screen-time, it's how she's handled. The writers obviously want her to be big among the audience by giving her power-ups, big rolls and making her have cool moments or making her look badass. She's good for screen-time but what they do with her is forced.

Sorry about that, I should've said "most likely" shoehorned into that episode. I haven't seen the episode but having Goku get involved and team up with an enemy to face off against the likes of those 2 pride troopers doesn't seem necessary. I mean, they had other options, Hit has his own team afterall...

I addressed that and said that it feels forced. They don't have to have Goku be targeted by everyone and their grandmother, they have other main characters that can be targeted. Aside from Kales rampage, all the instances where Goku's been targeted were pretty idiotic. Weaker characters going after Goku is dumb, because they've already seen his power.

Edit: i just remembered the Kale encounter, that was pretty dumb too, but it made sense suppose...
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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Zagacious » Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:21 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Zagacious wrote:If you actually believe Android 17 and Gohan are close to Goku SSB in power then there's really nothing to discuss.
You never know with power levels in Super lol, it is also under my impression 17 and Gohan aren't so far behind.
Being close in power is very vague in this series but is it logical at all for gohan to be anywhere near SSB Goku based on how much he's been training? Yea I guess it is true they don't even keep track of their own power levels one person could be fodder one episode and god level the next.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by HeroR » Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:22 pm

Shaqazooloo wrote:
Not to be rude or anything, but I feel like you didn't read my post fully...

I said Caulifla is forced, but not in regards to screen-time, it's how she's handled. The writers obviously want her to be big among the audience by giving her power-ups, big rolls and making her have cool moments or making her look badass. She's good for screen-time but what they do with her is forced.

Sorry about that, I should've said "most likely" shoehorned into that episode. I haven't seen the episode but having Goku get involved and team up with an enemy to face off against the likes of those 2 pride troopers doesn't seem necessary. I mean, they had other options, Hit has his own team afterall...

I addressed that and said that it feels forced. They don't have to have Goku be targeted by everyone and their grandmother, they have other main characters that can be targeted. Aside from Kales rampage, all the instances where Goku's been targeted were pretty idiotic. Weaker characters going after Goku is dumb, because they've already seen his power.

Edit: i just remembered the Kale encounter, that was pretty dumb too, but it made sense suppose...
But you didn't explain how she's forced and her big role was no more meaningful than Kale. Cali best form is also Super Saiyan 2 that got left behind ages ago and Ultra Super Saiyan was there to remind everyone how bad it is.

Can't comment since you didn't watch the 104 and it seems you have your mind made up.

Dumb or not, we knew months before the tourument that Goku would have a target on his back. So I don't see how something can be forced when the show stated what was going to happen back in 82. But if that's your feeling, fine.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by pacz360 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:27 pm

Zagacious wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote:
Zagacious wrote:If you actually believe Android 17 and Gohan are close to Goku SSB in power then there's really nothing to discuss.
You never know with power levels in Super lol, it is also under my impression 17 and Gohan aren't so far behind.
Being close in power is very vague in this series but is it logical at all for gohan to be anywhere near SSB Goku based on how much he's been training? Yea I guess it is true they don't even keep track of their own power levels one person could be fodder one episode and god level the next.
Did you forget what series this is?

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by pacz360 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:29 pm

sintzu wrote:
Vegeta-Sama wrote:I want this Goku back, not this clown we have in Super.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75gUJ_4SyY0
We'll never get that again. It seems like Toei are trying to make him as Luffy like as possible, never mind the fact that it was Goku who inspired Oda to create Luffy.
Goku has been acting like himself since the start of the arc

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Basako » Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:48 pm

Goku is the best for me, but I wish he really shared the limited screentime and opponent eliminations with others, at least in this primary phase. But, well, I hope he wins the tournament of power. He deserves to win for once, doesn't happen that often and it would be epic, like when he won the 23rd martial art tournament in the end of DB.
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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Shaqazooloo » Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:34 pm

HeroR wrote:
Shaqazooloo wrote:
Not to be rude or anything, but I feel like you didn't read my post fully...

I said Caulifla is forced, but not in regards to screen-time, it's how she's handled. The writers obviously want her to be big among the audience by giving her power-ups, big rolls and making her have cool moments or making her look badass. She's good for screen-time but what they do with her is forced.

Sorry about that, I should've said "most likely" shoehorned into that episode. I haven't seen the episode but having Goku get involved and team up with an enemy to face off against the likes of those 2 pride troopers doesn't seem necessary. I mean, they had other options, Hit has his own team afterall...

I addressed that and said that it feels forced. They don't have to have Goku be targeted by everyone and their grandmother, they have other main characters that can be targeted. Aside from Kales rampage, all the instances where Goku's been targeted were pretty idiotic. Weaker characters going after Goku is dumb, because they've already seen his power.

Edit: i just remembered the Kale encounter, that was pretty dumb too, but it made sense suppose...
But you didn't explain how she's forced and her big role was no more meaningful than Kale. Cali best form is also Super Saiyan 2 that got left behind ages ago and Ultra Super Saiyan was there to remind everyone how bad it is.

Can't comment since you didn't watch the 104 and it seems you have your mind made up.

Dumb or not, we knew months before the tourument that Goku would have a target on his back. So I don't see how something can be forced when the show stated what was going to happen back in 82. But if that's your feeling, fine.
She's forced because of how rushed she is. She's gotten too much too fast and the writers have made no effort in hiding how they want Caulifla to be the next big thing and have her catch up to someone like Vegeta. I sort of don't know how to explain it any better than that and I don't really have another anime to compare to because it's been a bit since i've watched one.

Fair enough, I suppose. I was willing to give it a chance though, however, from comments on the episode, Goku's involvement wasn't necessary, and him not being in the episode would've been better, so I avoided it.

That felt like a dropped plot point to me (like most things that happened before the tournament), I don't think anybodies brought that up since. I remember one off-hand comment from the GoD that are exempt from the ToP (that didn't even refer to people going after U7, just saying that they were lucky to be given the chance), but other than that I don't even think the Trio De Dangers brought that up. I could be wrong though and just missed a comment. It would still be forced because of the battle royale setting, we shouldn't be seeing Goku this much in this type of environment imo.

This is just how I feel. I don't think Goku should be getting as much screen-time as he's been getting and it feels unnatural too me.
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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by HeroR » Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:46 pm

Shaqazooloo wrote:
She's forced because of how rushed she is. She's gotten too much too fast and the writers have made no effort in hiding how they want Caulifla to be the next big thing and have her catch up to someone like Vegeta. I sort of don't know how to explain it any better than that and I don't really have another anime to compare to because it's been a bit since i've watched one.

Fair enough, I suppose. I was willing to give it a chance though, however, from comments on the episode, Goku's involvement wasn't necessary, and him not being in the episode would've been better, so I avoided it.

That felt like a dropped plot point to me (like most things that happened before the tournament), I don't think anybodies brought that up since. I remember one off-hand comment from the GoD that are exempt from the ToP (that didn't even refer to people going after U7, just saying that they were lucky to be given the chance), but other than that I don't even think the Trio De Dangers brought that up. I could be wrong though and just missed a comment. It would still be forced because of the battle royale setting, we shouldn't be seeing Goku this much in this type of environment imo.

This is just how I feel. I don't think Goku should be getting as much screen-time as he's been getting and it feels unnatural too me.
If anything, Kale is the next big thing since her Beserk form tanked a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Kamehameha, while she struggles with Super Saiyan 2 Goku and couldn't even used Super Saiyan 2 properly before Goku showed her.

Everyone have different opinions and you should always judge stuff for yourself.

They did. The gods had a meeting in Epsoide 84 where they blamed Goku and U7 for everything and U4 set up U9 to get U7 erased early with those assassins. Toppo also have issues with Goku to the point of having flashbacks about him. Goku is targeted because he's U7's ace and they don't like him. U9 got themselves wiped because they couldn't let go of their grudge on U7. Emotions rarely make people act rationally.

As I said, I'm not going to argue on 'feeling'. I just laid out what the story has setup and it's up to watcher to decide if they like it or not.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Simere » Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:46 pm

Shaqazooloo wrote:She's forced because of how rushed she is. She's gotten too much too fast and the writers have made no effort in hiding how they want Caulifla to be the next big thing and have her catch up to someone like Vegeta.
I haven't gotten that sense. To me she's just another side character to be enjoyed for the now. I'm not even certain she'll do anything later this arc.

I hope your fears are right, though.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by namekiansaiyan » Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:48 pm

HeroR wrote:
Shaqazooloo wrote:I skipped episode 104 because they pretty much just shoe-horned Goku into a fight where his presence was most likely not needed. My main problem with him this arc and why I could deal with him in other arcs is that Goku's being forced onto us. I think Caulifla has a similar problem (makes sense, she is his counter-part) and I dislike her for the same reason.

Caulifla is getting too many powerups too fast, is getting tons of attention and the writers obviously want her to be something big. She's basically the Roman Reigns of Dragon Ball Super, it all comes off as feeling unnatural and forced.

Goku's screen-time and focus in previous arcs made sense and felt natural, here however, it doesn't make sense with the battle royale setting and the 48 minute time limit. They brought back all these other characters only to mostly focus on Goku? They gave the ToP a 48 minute time limit to have Goku be involved in most of the action, making the 48 minute time limit not believable and confusing? Having Goku get involved with everything, either on his own or someone attacking him has felt unnatural and forced. He's basically the John Cena of this battle royale at this point.

I can atleast tolerate Caulifla because I don't hate her character, just that she's forced on the audience. Goku on the other hand, i've grown to dislike his character over the course of the show, so when they start forcing him down my throat it's almost unbearable.

It doesn't help that the tournament feels like it was booked by the WWE creative team! Okay i'll stop with the WWE comparisons, but I got one more. Jiren is the Brock Lesner of the ToP except he actually gets more screen-time in this one battle royale than Brock Lesner gets in a full year.
How is Cali forced? In this tourument she wasn't in 97, got a brief easy to miss appearance in 98, wasn't in 99, got focused in Episodes 100 and 101, wasn't in 102 or 103, and get some scenes in 104. Since the tourument started she's been in four out of eight epsoides and only got primary focused in two. And Kale had taking up the same amount of scene time.

And I find it funny that you said 104 shoehorned Goku while you also admit not even seeing the epsoide.

Finally, most of Goku's scene time happened because people were attacking him. 98 happened because U9 targeted him. 100, Cali target him when he was fighting someone else. 101, all those Pride Troopers came after him on Toppo's order. 102, the magical girls attacked him along with Vegeta and 17. 103, Goku finishes the fight with the magical girl. 104 is the only epsoide after 97 that Goku jumped into a fight.
Goku is not the only one having a fight at any one time they should be cutting between 2 or 3 fights happening at the same time and then it would make it seem better when we see Goku as it would seem like a proper battle royale is happening.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Zagacious » Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:54 pm

pacz360 wrote:
Zagacious wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote:
You never know with power levels in Super lol, it is also under my impression 17 and Gohan aren't so far behind.
Being close in power is very vague in this series but is it logical at all for gohan to be anywhere near SSB Goku based on how much he's been training? Yea I guess it is true they don't even keep track of their own power levels one person could be fodder one episode and god level the next.
Did you forget what series this is?
Just because DBZ had a few inconsistencies doesn't mean DBS can just be a free for all where power scaling means nothing. This will never be a good excuse its just a dismissive tactic people use saying DBZ had no scale is just flat out wrong.

In DBZ you can almost always tell who is stronger or more skilled and every power up had at least some explanation. In DBS you really can't. Which can be a good thing in some ways, but then you have endless arguments like this where both sides have good points and no one can agree then maybe they need to be a little more clear.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Shaqazooloo » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:02 pm

Simere wrote:
Shaqazooloo wrote:She's forced because of how rushed she is. She's gotten too much too fast and the writers have made no effort in hiding how they want Caulifla to be the next big thing and have her catch up to someone like Vegeta.
I haven't gotten that sense. To me she's just another side character to be enjoyed for the now. I'm not even certain she'll do anything later this arc.

I hope your fears are right, though.
aayyy, atleast someone can find happiness from my fears! :thumbup:

I honestly think she's gonna go blue before the end of the tournament and become a recurring character. I hope she doesn't, but i'm prepared to provide salt for Caulifla fans if it happens.
Favorite Dragon Ball Characters
1. Waluigi
2. Whis
3. Evil Buu

Likes: Lanky characters
Dislikes: Playing by the rules

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