Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:34 am

@Cetra
It goes without saying I 100% disagree with your take on canon and will only reply to such in the corresponding threads from now on cheers lol
Yes, and that mustache was a character design of Akira Toriyama himself.
You know as they say, even the greatest minds can make mistakes, he was certainly in a bad period of his life, giving greenlight to GT and all lol

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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by Cetra » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:00 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:@Cetra
It goes without saying I 100% disagree with your take on canon and will only reply to such in the corresponding threads from now on cheers lol
And as mentioned in previous posts already it does not matter in the slightest what you disagree with because a) you do not have the power to decide canonicity and b) do not understand how canonicity is defined. Virtually everything you say in your claims ignores the concept of how canonicity is rightfully defined as absolutely everything you say is based on claims of yours that are highly subjective and try to rate something as canonical when it a) has never been declared as canonical and b) does not follow how something can be declared as canonical. So your little provoking message of "from now on will only reply like this" really only reflects polemic as well as that you have no interest in a) actual conversation and b) using made-up definitions of yours instead of actual functioning logic and definitions fully disrespecting rightholders just so your own claim, that as you seem to still not understand, has no power over the franchise. You simply do not understand there is no "take on canon". I do not have the right to have any take on that and you do not have either. I can only post something that reflects something respecting the rights of license holders or do not, as it is in your case. With that post of yours I am fairly sure by now that you either are completely non-interested in actually respecting the rights of license holders just because you want to have a power you do not have or simply want to troll. And I do not know which one is better or worse. Also I am not even sure if you understand what you wrote because your post implied "I disagree with you and thus will only reply to exactly those posts just to troll you" which, if actually meant like that, would be an incredibly inflamatory post of yours even more polemical than it seems at first glance. It would also be no use because you are not arguing in any way with any logical definitions or axiomatic, reasonable thoughts where someone could say "you got a point with that". So if you really want to argue with me just for the sake of trolling in following threads just out of malevolence be sure that I will report your everytime. You will not gain anything from countering an argument when it rains and a person says "It rains outside" by saying "no, it doesn't lol" while talking about the same context. If you argument has no truthful basis and is also just written to troll people why even post? Is the joy you get from trolling worth your time?
Last edited by Cetra on Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:13 am

I just don't want to keep derailing the thread but you leave me no choice, what is canon is what comes from the author. Toriyama's contributions to GT cannot be canon as they are too minor and that show is a completely separate entity from DB, DBZ, and DBS. You can say GT is part of the franchise as a whole because there is 64 episodes but it remains a fan-fiction. I know some people like to think it's all about the ownership of the rights but there is law on one side and common sense on the other cheers lol

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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by Cetra » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:28 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:I just don't want to keep derailing the thread but you leave me no choice, what is canon is what comes from the author.
Okay, you have not read a single post I wrote.

NO, what is canonical does NOT automatically come from the author. That is a baseless claim of yours and nothing else. George Lucas was one of multiple authors of Star Wars and was able to decide about the status of canonicity. He is still an author of episode 1-6 but has no longer any creative power over the franchise meaning he does not have the power to decide about ep. 1-6. That does not mean Disney will change it but he simply has no creative license over that anymore and can be considered glad when he gets the position of giving advice because he is respected for his past work. What is canonical comes from an official license holder who NORMALLY happens to be the original author or an author that works for an official license holder. That is how it is and that is why works of authors are normally canonical. Just because Toriyama-san invented Dragon Ball it does not automatically make it canonical because when I invent something it can still from the very beginning or later on be declared as non-canonical even though I wrote it. An author writing something does not make things undeniably canonical. It is about the rights and that's that. Toriyama-san's involvement in relevant Dragon Ball-related stuff comes from Toei and Shueisha's (two right holders when it comes to either animated media and/or overall Dragon Ball) knowledge that people will buy and consume things easier when it comes from the original author as well as the fact that Toriyama-san deliberately changed Kami to Kami instead of just checking it and this did lead to incredibly well reception box office-wise as well as to Fukkatsu no F. So what exactly did I leave you no choice for? You have provided no factual information so far. Toriyama-san is involved in the franchise and his work is well respected by the other license holders. And that's it. Canonicity is still not automatically decided and just alone by the original author. This may shock you know but Dragon Ball Super's bullet points are nothing but exactly that. A barebones script. That is not even close to being comparable to what the writers in the show actually have to write then. That means Toriyama-san is to be respected for that bullet points script but does that mean you do not respect those who write the actual story? And believe me, there is a major difference in writing a full story and a bullet points script. I know what I am talking about. Anyways, I am drifting off here. Toriyama-san is not the sole owner and is technically not the only one who can decide. He is simply respected enough because of his work and because it sells better that way. But that's exactly the next point: That happens only because the other license holders want it that way. If there is no case of "official licenses" or anything because it is not an official product then of course there is only the case of intellectual property but as you can see, even that is ultimately pinned down to one thing: Property again.
PsionicWarrior wrote:IToriyama's contributions to GT cannot be canon as they are too minor and that show is a completely separate entity from DB, DBZ, and DBS.
Dragon Ball GT does not need Toriyama-san to be declared as canonical. That is what you do not understand.
PsionicWarrior wrote: You can say GT is part of the franchise as a whole because there is 64 episodes but it remains a fan-fiction.
You do not understand what fan-fiction is. "Fan-fiction" is inofficial work written by a fan and that's it. Dragon Ball GT was written by Aya Matsui, an official employee of Toei Animation. Even if - let's just say that for a moment - Dragon Ball GT would be non-canonical it would not equate to being fan-fiction.
PsionicWarrior wrote:I know some people like to think it's all about the ownership of the rights but there is law on one side and common sense on the other cheers lol
No, there is no "one side and the other". Common sense would be to include everything relevant to actually understand what it is about and not ignore that stuff. If Toriyama-san would suddenly sell his entirety of Dragon Ball and write a Dragon Ball story after that it would be canonical to Dragon Ball for you but that is exactly what would not be the case. Those who own it would have the power to say "well, it is written by a man who is well respected and who knows what he is talking about so let's make it a thing".
Last edited by Cetra on Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:36 am

Cetra wrote:Okay, you have not read a single post I wrote.
I thank you for your elaborated response but I have. I understood from your first post for you canon is nothing more than another term for 'official'. I have full right to disagree with that lol

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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by Cetra » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:40 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Cetra wrote:Okay, you have not read a single post I wrote.
I thank you for your elaborated response but I have. I understood from your first post for you canon is nothing more than another term for 'official'. I have full right to disagree with that lol
Err, no? You did not understand a single thing. "Canonicity" in my post is never explained or implied as synonymous to "official". You selectively used the parts you wanted to read again and ignored the rest. What you claim I said could not be further from the truth. And again it does not matter what right you and I have to agree and disagree. We all have that right. It will not change that you provide no actual and functioning explanation that uses any working logic to define canonicity. I never said "official = canonical": Official things can be non-canonical. Old Star Wars books are canonical yet declared as no longer equally canonical and only be a part of the Legends universe. And there are many other examples. What you say I said shows in any way you do not have the interest to properly read what I wrote.
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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:42 am

Well you repeatedly said it's only about the rights and property, isn't that what officially makes things official lol

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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by Cetra » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:45 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:Well you repeatedly said it's only about the rights and property, isn't that what officially makes things official lol
Owners can distribute official content but that is not the same thing as the owner's power to declare canonical material. Everything the owners make is official. But the owners can declare the state of canonicity, thus what is canonical, non-canonical or undefined. I never even remotely said "official = canonical" and "property and license holders talk = official talk = canonicity talk" is an inappropriate equation if that is what you read from my posts. If that were what I said the discussion would be redundant because then canonicity would never be a thing in the first place as there would be no negative and no positive state to compare with when it comes to officially licensed products. And as said, I did not say that. But in case of Dragon Ball it is not even that far off because there never was a normal declaration. That however, is not the same reason as the equation that you seem to have understood and which I was not talking about.
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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:51 am

Cetra wrote:But the owners can declare the state of canonicity, thus what is canonical, non-canonical or undefined.
Look man it's not because Toei said GT is canon that I will agree it's canon, GT is 100% irrelevant to anything else from the DB universe and is NOT the work from Toriyama either lol
The only canonical continuation of Z is Super, is it a worthy continuation or not is a completely different debate lol
I never even remotely said "official = canonical" and "property and license holders talk = official talk = canonicity talk" is an inappropriate equation if that is what you read from my posts.
Yeah that is what I understood from your posts, my mistake then lol

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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by Cetra » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:00 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Look man it's not because Toei said GT is canon that I will agree it's canon, GT is 100% irrelevant to anything else from the DB universe lol
Do you even understand what you yourself write at times? Toei Animation did not say Dragon Ball GT is canonical and I am not even disputing that - the fact that I am trying to make you realize here is that if the license holders were to come out one day and say "this is canonical and this and that" that it would not matter in the slightest what you agree with and that you claim only the author can decide. You do not have to accept that. No one can force you to accept that but your flawed vision cannot magically change the nature of a product that you do not own. And please stop with your other claims like "this is irrelevant and this is irrelevant lulz" because a) sales number-wise all Dragon Ball-products are relevant and b) you cannot decide in the slightest what is relevant continuity-wise. It is not coherent with the series right now, so what? Then millions of things in the show would not be relevant. Who is to say they care about that? They do not. Who is to say they do not one day decide to just remake it? You have to accept it that you can like or dislike as much as you want but it will not change what the series is and your claims also won't and yes "lulz this decides and this is irrelevant" blatantly ignoring the flaws within those claims and disrespecting license holders and all are nothing but that: Claims. Well, of course you do not need to accept it. You also don't need to accept that you will die. It would just be easier, because you cannot do anything about it anyway. That does not mean you have to like dying.
PsionicWarrior wrote: The only canonical continuation of Z is Super ...
Except it is not. That is another claim of yours. If you really read through my messages you maybe even understand that I already explained that Dragon Ball has an undefined state of canonicity. As far as Super is concerned it is "an official continuation" just as GT is "an official continuation" and that's it. Official again, as you see. But no clear canonicity in sight. Dragon Ball has a very foggy pseudo-canonicty at best when someone really tries to define what we have right now because no one of the official license holders bothers.
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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:04 am

Cetra wrote:[If you really read through my messages you maybe even understand that I already explained that Dragon Ball has an undefined state of canonicity.
In which case your claims hold no more water than mine lol

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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by Cetra » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:06 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Cetra wrote:[If you really read through my messages you maybe even understand that I already explained that Dragon Ball has an undefined state of canonicity.
In which case your claims hold no more water than mine lol
Which claims? That license holders have power? That is no baseless claim. And everything I say is based on that argument. Really everything I say is in respect to their rights as well as the logic but you are approaching me with a very internet-typical youtube-y attitude just ignoring stuff and bringing in claims based on very subjetive aspects. So how exactly is that comparable to what I am saying? And what you are trying to say here does not even make sense because Dragon Ball having an undefined canonicity does not invalidate my explanations of how canonicity is defined by one. I cannot help but see that you are purely uninterested in a normal discussion and ignore any internal coherency when it comes to the rights of people just so you can keep posting the same thing that is in the end just something that has no internal coherency. So how again does anything I say come close to your "x is relevant lulz", "SSJ4 is non-canonical and irrelevant lulz", "only the author decides lulz"? It doesn't.

The problem is you also post before I have edited my posts and then read even less of the post. And that while you're already only reading the parts you want.

And "Dragon Ball Super is not the only canonical continuation" is not a baseless counter argument of mine to your "it is the only one" because it does not contradict my comment about undefined canonicity. "Not being a canonical continuation" does NOT automatically mean being "non-canonical". That would require canonicity. It can instead all mean simply being undefined. And that directly flows with what I said before.

I can talk about the power of license holders even while Dragon Ball has undefined states of canonicity. One thing does not exclude the other because those are different sub-topics of one big one that I am talking about here. The problem is you are not remotely interested in truly thinking about what I am saying or seeing the flaws of your already very sparse posts. I carefully, no, neurotically consider what I write which is why I rather edit my posts 10 times to correct them if something is missing, do you?

Quite frankly I see no reason to talk to you anymore as I have exactly these types of arguments very often and had them in the past so it is very calculable how it is going to turn out. So I'm gonna drop it.
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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:17 pm

Alright mate sorry for the late reply I had to go AFK for a while lol
Also I would appreciate you put my lols correctly when you ape me and not 'lulz' thanks in advance cheers lol
Which claims? That license holders have power? That is no baseless claim. And everything I say is based on that argument.
But that is exactly what I am contesting. Who are you to decide that, why would people having nothing to do with the original work get to weight on such matters, if you want to talk about made up rules here's a nice one, so what imagine Disney buys DB and retcons everything we ever had, will you consider what Disney made to be canon because “if you want power get the rights”? Please lol
This is IMHO an extremely flawed fallacy to believe property is everything and that you can dismiss the own's creator input (or lack of) in any case, for the nth time the cold truth and facts are Toriyama DIDN'T create GT and Super is so obviously canon and nowhere close to be compatible with GT it is rationally impossible to have them going on same canon level, saying "hey it's alright if one has nothing to do with anything, it's on a different timeline!" or "look, Toriyama said it's fine" certainly doesn't cut it for me as it doesn't changes the facts lol
Please understand I reject the notion of not taking into account at all times who creates what and how as a relevant factor for canon and that is indeed your take against mine lol

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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by gofishus » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:44 pm

gofishus wrote:I find the whole canon vs non-canon argument to be really lame, especially since in Super we have TWO different and distinct canons: the Anime canon and the Manga canon. So which is the "true" canon??
I don't find myself dismissing any DBZ movies or DBGT just because someone else on the internet thinks "BUT ITS NOT CANON SO IT SUCKS!!111" I find enjoyment based on whether or not I personally enjoy the series or not.

DBGT is better for me. Number one is the animation style which is more similar to DBZ. the old 90s anime have a distinct style that changed, and Super artistic style feels way too "cute" or "childish" for me. Its missing the "grittiness" of DBZ/DBGT.

Secondly, while DBGT has inconsistent power levels, its nowhere near the clusterf*ck of power scaling that Super is. You're telling me that SSJ2 Trunks is as powerful as someone with God Ki? Base Vegeta is more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks? ok. You're telling me that Android 17 within the span of a few months (because we all know he didnt do sh*t in Buu Arc) got to God tier level? You're telling me Master Roshi is suddenly one of the most powerful characters? Gimme a break. DBGT never had those kind of situations.

Thirdly, I find SSJ4 to be the most original super saiyan transformation period. No color swap of the hair, just purely original. Nice.

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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by Nickolaidas » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:48 pm

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:Yep. Tons of great character moments, really great villains, stellar fight sequences, really funny and just a whole lotta fun.

Even with its flaws, I thoroughly enjoy it.
This. Z was a chore to watch due to its horrible filler and constant one-sided fights. Very few were the battles where foes were evenly matched.

Also, Super seems to be giving the underdogs (of all factions) some good love and I'm all for it.

And Super is simply gold where everything Frieza related.

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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by BWri » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:38 pm

sintzu wrote:
BWri wrote:Toriyama can do whatever he wants as far as I understand. If he wanted, I'm sure Toei would allow him a more hands-on role.
Even if Toei lets him, they still have to answer to Bandai (their biggest sponsor) so if there's something they want then surely they'll get it. That's why we have a female Broly for example.
I doubt that Bandai's suggestions override Toriyama's. I think if Toriyama absolutely did not want female Broly, like if he thought she would ruin his story then she wouldn't be there.
sintzu wrote:
BWri wrote:When I compared him to Oda and Kishimoto, I meant his vision for the story and his level of passion for writing it is just not the same as theirs. He doesn't prioritize the same things they prioritize, such as large casts of characters, backstories, lore, mysteries, intrigue. They had these epic stories that they planned out, constructed, deconstructed, fleshed out, and delved deeply into.
Based on interviews with him, he wrote the way he did to not corner himself into writing a certain way all the time and wanted to experience the story with the readers instead of knowing everything from the start. Had everything been planned out, maybe it would've ended up as just a comedy adventure story rather than the epic Shonen we got.
Yup, that's exactly what I meant. I think the editors, the trends of the time, and his fast paced schedule had a huge impact on how Dragon Ball ended up. If Z was completely Toriyama's baby, then I'm sure it would be drastically different, so would the latter half of the original Dragon Ball.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by Kataphrut » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:58 pm

I'd say so. It has it's fair share of problems, but it also does a lot of things I find enjoyable, some of which put it above 'Z' in my opinion.

I like that it has it's own identity and tone like DB and DBZ. GT started out wanting to be a return to original Dragon Ball in the laziest way possible ("let's make it Kid Goku and a male and female sidekick hunting Dragon Balls again") but by the time Baby rolled around it ended up feeling like one of the bad Z movies. He was the best it ever got, too. Whereas thanks to the introduction of Beerus and Whis, Super has established it's own identity as a hybrid of Divine Comedy and Dragon Ball sitcom. All the new lore it's added with the hierarchy of upper gods and the 12 universes is really interesting and I like a lot of the characters that have come from it.

Plus, it took a while to get there but I like how it's started making the non-Saiyan characters relevant again, and doing so in ways that isn't just "oh, they're just really really strong now". I don't have a problem with them playing fast and loose with power-scaling to do so, since power-scaling has always been a weight around the franchise's neck and it's nice they're taking steps to remove it.

The thing it does worst is also the thing GT did best which is handling of new Super Saiyan transformations. Super has introduced so many versions of them in such a short amount of time, but half the time glosses over explaining what they are or even how they were obtained. Ironically, I understand Golden Frieza better than God, Blue, Rage, Berserk, Rose or any of the others.

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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by julianix » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:04 am

Dbz will forever hold a place in my heart. Db wasn't even top 3 so whatever. I kind of feel the same about super. It's good; better than nothing I suppose. But a good continuation? No not really I envisioned so much better. With that said at least I'm still watching it, to this day I have no idea what gt is about as I never watched it. I've seen fights online and that's about it.

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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by Freeza9000 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:02 am

BoG and the U6 Tournament arc were inoffensive arcs, that had majorly simplistic story lines, which is why they are considered bad to mediocre by a lot of fans. And the RoF arc was irredeemable garbage, no arguing that. Though it did somewhat provide another side to Freeza's character. But the FT arc was filled with tons of enjoyable character moments. How about the entire first half of the arc, where Trunks has to cope with the death of Mai and his mother? Episode 47 was one of the best episodes in the history of Dragon Ball. It established character and tension, as we see Bulma and Mai pouring every inch of hope into Trunks, and it shows the weight that he carries. Throughout the arc, we see the struggles of the resistance, and Mai and Trunks' great influence on them. Goku Black is a wonderful villain, as he actually has an interesting and compelling personality and drive. And it's not like the FT arc is the only arc with great character moments. What about Gohan's struggle to choose between father or fighter? What about Vegeta training and encouraging Cabba to get better? What about Krillin getting his groove back? What about the unnerving chaotic neutral alliance that Beerus established in the U6 arc? And what about the realization Gohan is currently having about the universal destruction? Whether this show is "trash" or not depends on your ability to cope with with it's shortcomings. To say it has no redeeming qualities, in terms of character development, is just a straight up lie. While yes, DB/Z's development was great, a lot of it's best moments were repetitive, e.g. Villains becoming allies, characters acting like prideful idiots, etc.

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Re: Do you think DBS is a worthy continuation of DB and DBZ?

Post by Kinokima » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:41 am

Well for me Super definitely is. It's not perfect but despite that I absolutely love it.

First of all I think this argument about canon is silly. I don't enjoy GT so I mostly ignore it I wouldn't argue with fans who enjoy it that it isn't canon. I honestly doubt that Akira Toriyama cares if people consider stuff in the anime, super, or GT Canon that he didn't write himself. If you enjoy it then it's canon for you that's fine. If you don't enjoy it can find reason to convince yourself that it's not canon that's fine too. Fans get way too hung up over this type of thing.

But that being said as someone who disliked GT I didn't think another Dragon Ball series could get me back into the series but Super has done it. I probably haven't watched/read anything Dragon Ball related in 16 years. I still have my old DVDS (the original singles) and some VHS but I never found a reason to re-buy the series. It's not that I disliked DBZ. I still felt fond of it. It was my first anime but I moved on.

I see the argument that Super is inferior to a lot of Shounen series. And maybe that's true. I definitely think many modern shounen series took the DBZ formula and improved on it. More skills less power in battle and a better handling of larger casts. I think One Piece especially was a great successor to Dragon Ball. But here is the thing over the years I've had a really hard time staying interested in long running shounen, even the good ones. I would say my tastes in anime have changed. It's not necessarily because I got older (I was already an adult in college when I got into DBZ lol) but I prefer shorter series with a beginning, middle and end. If I watch anything shounen its usually sports series these days. The shounen tropes usually work better for me there.

But despite that I find Super utterly charming. The series as I said actually brought back my love for the Dragon Ball world. I absolutely love the characters and their interaction. The fight scenes are much shorter but personally I find that's a plus. I am not going to say Super is an example of intelligent drama but its a lot of fun.

It probably helps that I don't care about power levels, transformations, or who gets to beat who. I just love spending time with these characters. I love that you have fathers, mothers, children, grandchildren, and friends. And in Super we have a great mixture of family moments mixed in with the action scenes. That is something that does make it feel different from most shounen for me. The slice of life mixed with the action & more dramatic scenes is a perfect formula for me. I read someone call it an action sitcom which I think is great way to describe Super. I also love the addition of new universes and how the Dragon Ball world is being explored and broadened. Most of the new characters have also been very welcome additions.

That's not to say there aren't decisions I didn't like. I am not a big fan of Freeza so I wasn't as pleased he came back as I am sure most fans are (and now we basically have 2 of them). I was disappointed in the end of the Future Trunks Saga. But overall I am having a fantastic time with this series.

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