Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

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Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by ssj4 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:07 am

One reason I dislike SSJBlue is the fact that due to it making Goku and Vegeta overpowered, it creates a sense of fake tension. I mean, Goku and Vegeta have no reason to fight in their base forms unless they are not being serious, which seriously draws away high tension. It is kind of lame to watch the series knowing Goku and Vegeta can end stuff so easily unless they forgot about their forms, which makes no sense. What does everyone else think of this?

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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by MisteryOne » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:55 am

This is why the manga did the correct thing with the whole stamina issie while the anime completely ignored it for not reason.
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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by TBMx » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:49 am

No, as SSB by itself is very beatable. Stack Kaioken x10 and limitbreaker transformation and yeah, you get a distinct lack of tension.

Goku is the only problem here. Everyone expects Vegeta to lose to begin with.

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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:06 pm

SSJB can't really be overpowered if they go up against a major antagonist that is as strong, or even much stronger, than SSJB from nearly the get-go. And that's the case 90% of the time in the every major arc Super.

As a matter of fact, SSJB hasn't got that good of a record in (serious) combat in Super:

Resurrection F arc:
- SSJB Goku gets his ass kicked 90% of the fight against Golden Freeza and only gets the advantage when Golden Freeza gassed out. Taken out by Sorbet's ring after dropping his guard and is saved by Vegeta. (L)
- SSJB Vegeta beats up a burned out Golden Freeza so badly he regresses to his Final Form. (W)
- Final Form Freeza kills SSJB Vegeta by blowing up the Earth (L)
- SSJB Goku only gets a reprieve when Whis literally pulled a Dues Ex Machima and kills Freeza with a Kamehameha. (W)

Universe 6 arc:
- SSJB Vegeta instantly knocks out Cabba (W)
- SSJB Vegeta flat out jobs to Hit (L)
- Hit withstood everything SSJB Goku threw at him, even when Goku multiplied the power of SSJB tenfold. Goku forfeits the match as he pretty much gassed out. (L)

Future Trunks arc:
- SSJB Vegeta jobs out again, this time to SSJR Goku Black. And that was after Goku Black in his base form no sold everything SSJB Vegeta threw at him. (L)(L)
- SSJB Goku gets badly beaten by both SSJR Goku Black and Future Zamasu. (L)(L)
- SSJB Goku and Vegeta fight SSJR Goku Black and Zamasu again and get their arses handed to them... again. (L)(L)
- SSJB Goku and Vegeta fight SSJR Goku Black and Zamasu FOR A THIRD TIME. And it's only in this occasion where Goku and Vegeta, but more-so Vegeta, get an advantage on either of them. (W)
- Merged Zamasu happens and decimates SSJB Goku and Vegeta at the same time. (L)(L)
- SSJB Goku wins a beat struggle against Merged Zamasu and then sends Merged Zamasu to the floor with SSJB/Kaioken combo attack (W)(W)
- SSJB Vegetto appears fights Merged Zamasu and can't get the job done before Vegetto defuses. (L)

Universe Surivival arc (So far):
- SSJB Vegeta is made to eat dirt by Beerus who tanks a punch to face (L) *Manga only*
- SSJB Goku defeats Bergamo (W)
- SSJB Goku and Toppo fight to a draw (D)
- SSJB Goku beats Gohan in a sparring match (W)
- SSJB Goku and Vegeta eliminate the Trio De Dangers at the same time. (W)

Filler Episodes:
- SSJB Goku kills SSJB Copy Vegeta (W)
- SSJB Goku fights to a draw with Hit (D)

The use of SSJB has only really become a source of contention in the Universal Survival arc with how Goku uses it. But it is stressed that Goku doesn't want to blow through all his power and is pacing himself so that he can mange his power and last longer in the tournament.

Despite that, Goku has still used SSJB in scenarios where he may not have needed to do so. However, time moves incredibly slow in the Tournament Of Power arc in-universe, and Goku used SSJB about 5 times and only for about 10-15 seconds at the most in each occasion.

SSJB may drain stamina over an unspecified period of time, something that is stated as far back as the Universe 6/7 tournament, but it doesn't have the crippling power and stamina issues like SSJ3 has. So the use of the form in its frequency in the Future Trunks arc isn't really something to get worked up over, as some fans have done so. Especially since the use of the form in the major battles in that arc last no more than 2 episodes in a row before the main cast (Goku and Vegeta) get a chance to collect themselves.

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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by TBMx » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:33 pm

SSred Goku can fight in space and withstand hits that could obliterate the entire universe.

SSblue Vegeta gets killed by the earth's explosion.

What's wrong with this picture.

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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by Yedis » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:39 pm

ssj4 wrote:One reason I dislike SSJBlue is the fact that due to it making Goku and Vegeta overpowered, it creates a sense of fake tension. I mean, Goku and Vegeta have no reason to fight in their base forms unless they are not being serious, which seriously draws away high tension. It is kind of lame to watch the series knowing Goku and Vegeta can end stuff so easily unless they forgot about their forms, which makes no sense. What does everyone else think of this?
Need a time reversal to beat Golden Frieza
One shot Cabba
Did not beat Hit
Did not beat Goku Black or Future Zamasu
Got killed by Hit
Did not one shot Toppo
Fought evenly with Android 17
Did not one shot Ultimate Gohan
Fought evenly with Golden Frieza a second time
Could not beat Kale
Likely not going to beat Jiren

The lack of tension has nothing to do with SSB.
Last edited by Yedis on Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:41 pm

There's overall generally been a lack of tension in Super (aside from the Future Trunks arc), but it's not because of SSB. Like Lord Beerus pointed out, SSB has been flat out ragdolled in Super. Very underwhelming if you ask me.

This is why I think each arc in Super lacked tension:
*God and God + RoF arcs - Given most of us already saw the respective movies, we already knew what was going to happen most of the way
*U6 vs U7 arc - it's a tournament arc with no life-or-death stakes involved, so yeah
*Future Trunks arc - the only arc that had any real tension in my opinion. The people that died in that arc... didn't come back...
*Tournament of Power arc - see, this arc has what fans refer to as "artificial tension": sure Zeno is wiping out the universes that lose, but at the same time, no universe has really been given a proper introduction (aside from U6 and U7), so there's a lack of attachment to the other universes that do get erased. The characters are there on screen for like, 3 minutes then we never see them again. Well, ok *insert Saitama's face here*

Though, to counter my own point regarding the movie retellings, hell, there are moments in DBZ I watch that are still pretty tense to me - so you could also blame Super's writers too.

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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by emperior » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:29 pm

Honestly, what kills all the tension is EoZ. If we didn't know about it, we could be wondering things like "What if Vegeta/Krillin/whoever but Goku gets killed forever?" suddenly Beerus' threats could be taken seriously, Goku choosing Freeza for the ToP would be the best choice. Zeno erasing people would have more weight - you know I could go on longer.
It's why Future Trunks arc worked. Sure we knew Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have died, though even without EoZ I wouldn't have expected to see them dying. But for Future Trunks, he could have died any moment. We even saw Future Bulma getting killed on the very first episode of the arc, and it looked like Future Mai also had the same fate. In the end, all the future survivors were permanently killed. HonestIy, who the fuck expected it?

Hopefully Super will get after EoZ, so we can finally have some true tension.
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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by MagmonKai » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:08 pm

emperior wrote:Honestly, what kills all the tension is EoZ. If we didn't know about it, we could be wondering things like "What if Vegeta/Krillin/whoever but Goku gets killed forever?" suddenly Beerus' threats could be taken seriously, Goku choosing Freeza for the ToP would be the best choice. Zeno erasing people would have more weight - you know I could go on longer.
It's why Future Trunks arc worked. Sure we knew Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have died, though even without EoZ I wouldn't have expected to see them dying. But for Future Trunks, he could have died any moment. We even saw Future Bulma getting killed on the very first episode of the arc, and it looked like Future Mai also had the same fate. In the end, all the future survivors were permanently killed. HonestIy, who the fuck expected it?

Hopefully Super will get after EoZ, so we can finally have some true tension.

I agree with you, because these events take place before the EOZ we can't take any of it seriously. Can you imagine the ToP taking place after EoZ? We would be shitting our pants in fear of what might happen with Jiren. And Goku's Limit break form would be much more impactful when it arrives.

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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:18 pm

MagmonKai wrote:
emperior wrote:Honestly, what kills all the tension is EoZ. If we didn't know about it, we could be wondering things like "What if Vegeta/Krillin/whoever but Goku gets killed forever?" suddenly Beerus' threats could be taken seriously, Goku choosing Freeza for the ToP would be the best choice. Zeno erasing people would have more weight - you know I could go on longer.
It's why Future Trunks arc worked. Sure we knew Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have died, though even without EoZ I wouldn't have expected to see them dying. But for Future Trunks, he could have died any moment. We even saw Future Bulma getting killed on the very first episode of the arc, and it looked like Future Mai also had the same fate. In the end, all the future survivors were permanently killed. HonestIy, who the fuck expected it?

Hopefully Super will get after EoZ, so we can finally have some true tension.

I agree with you, because these events take place before the EOZ we can't take any of it seriously. Can you imagine the ToP taking place after EoZ? We would be shitting our pants in fear of what might happen with Jiren. And Goku's Limit break form would be much more impactful when it arrives.
Unfortunately, EOZ bring a few problems. First off, some of the cast will be past their prime (Krillin and Roshi), some of the characters who you thought could be used as a foundation to build future stories on don't show any genuine interest in fighting (Goten and Trunks), some of the cast have appeared content with a normal life and have settled down (Gohan and Android 18), some characters are so lost in the shuffle that you don't know what to do with them (Piccolo and Tien) other characters are left as a deliberate blank slate by Toriyama that it's very easy to fumble their characters when developing them (Pan and Oob).

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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:44 pm

TBMx wrote:SSred Goku can fight in space and withstand hits that could obliterate the entire universe.

SSblue Vegeta gets killed by the earth's explosion.

What's wrong with this picture.

Vegeta can't breathe in space for starters.....
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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by MagmonKai » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:37 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
MagmonKai wrote:
emperior wrote:Honestly, what kills all the tension is EoZ. If we didn't know about it, we could be wondering things like "What if Vegeta/Krillin/whoever but Goku gets killed forever?" suddenly Beerus' threats could be taken seriously, Goku choosing Freeza for the ToP would be the best choice. Zeno erasing people would have more weight - you know I could go on longer.
It's why Future Trunks arc worked. Sure we knew Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have died, though even without EoZ I wouldn't have expected to see them dying. But for Future Trunks, he could have died any moment. We even saw Future Bulma getting killed on the very first episode of the arc, and it looked like Future Mai also had the same fate. In the end, all the future survivors were permanently killed. HonestIy, who the fuck expected it?

Hopefully Super will get after EoZ, so we can finally have some true tension.

I agree with you, because these events take place before the EOZ we can't take any of it seriously. Can you imagine the ToP taking place after EoZ? We would be shitting our pants in fear of what might happen with Jiren. And Goku's Limit break form would be much more impactful when it arrives.
Unfortunately, EOZ bring a few problems. First off, some of the cast will be past their prime (Krillin and Roshi), some of the characters who you thought could be used as a foundation to build future stories on don't show any genuine interest in fighting (Goten and Trunks), some of the cast have appeared content with a normal life and have settled down (Gohan and Android 18), some characters are so lost in the shuffle that you don't know what to do with them (Piccolo and Tien) other characters are left as a deliberate blank slate by Toriyama that it's very easy to fumble their characters when developing them (Pan and Oob).

I know Gohan was severely out of shape a few arcs ago. It didn't take him long to get super powerful. Roshi has been out of his Prime since DB days. I don't think any of that stuff prevents a good arc from happening after EoZ.

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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by emperior » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:07 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
MagmonKai wrote:
emperior wrote:Honestly, what kills all the tension is EoZ. If we didn't know about it, we could be wondering things like "What if Vegeta/Krillin/whoever but Goku gets killed forever?" suddenly Beerus' threats could be taken seriously, Goku choosing Freeza for the ToP would be the best choice. Zeno erasing people would have more weight - you know I could go on longer.
It's why Future Trunks arc worked. Sure we knew Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have died, though even without EoZ I wouldn't have expected to see them dying. But for Future Trunks, he could have died any moment. We even saw Future Bulma getting killed on the very first episode of the arc, and it looked like Future Mai also had the same fate. In the end, all the future survivors were permanently killed. HonestIy, who the fuck expected it?

Hopefully Super will get after EoZ, so we can finally have some true tension.

I agree with you, because these events take place before the EOZ we can't take any of it seriously. Can you imagine the ToP taking place after EoZ? We would be shitting our pants in fear of what might happen with Jiren. And Goku's Limit break form would be much more impactful when it arrives.
Unfortunately, EOZ bring a few problems. First off, some of the cast will be past their prime (Krillin and Roshi), some of the characters who you thought could be used as a foundation to build future stories on don't show any genuine interest in fighting (Goten and Trunks), some of the cast have appeared content with a normal life and have settled down (Gohan and Android 18), some characters are so lost in the shuffle that you don't know what to do with them (Piccolo and Tien) other characters are left as a deliberate blank slate by Toriyama that it's very easy to fumble their characters when developing them (Pan and Oob).
Honestly seeing an old, wrinkly Krillin coming out of retirement to fight for his universe would have been awesome. Though seeing them fighting all together probably for the last time is still cool, but the drama is basically forced because of EoZ. Only 17, Freeza and U6 fighters bring in some real drama.
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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by TBMx » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:13 pm

GodKaio-Ken wrote:
TBMx wrote:SSred Goku can fight in space and withstand hits that could obliterate the entire universe.

SSblue Vegeta gets killed by the earth's explosion.

What's wrong with this picture.

Vegeta can't breathe in space for starters.....
Goku can breathe in the friggin exosphere. You telling me Vegeta Blue can't hold his breath for like one minute while Earth blows up, sense Goku, or whis, or Beerus, or Piccolo, or Tien, or Roshi, or Krillin, or Gohan and go to them?
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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:14 pm

I don't feel SSJB creates a lack of tension in the series. Tension is not about transformations but about how scenes are handled.

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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by gofishus » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:46 pm

TBMx wrote:SSred Goku can fight in space and withstand hits that could obliterate the entire universe.

SSblue Vegeta gets killed by the earth's explosion.

What's wrong with this picture.
Goku is overpowered in Super. We all know that. Yes as someone has mentioned, SSJ Blue Goku never actually "won" any fights. But it doesn't matter. There's a distinct lack of tension because even if Goku is losing we all know he's going to be ok in the end. He's never going to actually die. He'll pull some BS transformation out of his ass or some thing like Zeno button saves him. That's why there's a lack of tension.

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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by Lionel » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:20 pm

I don't have much concern for the blue transformation. It's hackneyed. When you know that Goku and Vegeta are capable of eliminating most of the competition with it, however, it does detract somewhat from the sincerity of other universal fighters' actions. It doesn't take much stamina at all to move about creating gusts of powerful wind strong enough to eliminate the sixty or so fighters who are incapable of opposing you in that form. Chun did it with hardly a swing of his arm during his match against Yamcha back in Dragon Ball. Why can Goku and Vegeta not accomplish the same with their form?

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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by TekTheNinja » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:27 pm

Absolutely, yes. One hundred percent yes. If the other characters were at that level too, it would be fine, but it's so fucking boring to watch characters with godly level power fight characters they don't struggle with at all. (with a few exceptions such as One Punch Man, seeing as it's entirely built off of making interesting scenarios about that concept)
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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by Kataphrut » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:35 pm

It hasn't been a problem up until this arc I reckon. It was weaker than Golden Frieza when it debuted, only winning out due to superior stamina. Since then, Hit, Goku Black and Zamasu have all been able to match or exceed it via various means.

It's only now that the issue of Goku and Vegeta being too powerful is causing a problem since it's clear nobody outside of Universe 6 or 11 can challenge it. There was potential there, but that was somewhat ruined after they blitzed Universe 9 in a single episode.

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Re: Does anyone else dislike SSJBlue due to it creating a lack of tension in the series?

Post by Miracles » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:42 pm

MisteryOne wrote:This is why the manga did the correct thing with the whole stamina issie while the anime completely ignored it for not reason.
The anime has stated Blue consumes tons of energy.
Vegeta and Goku are trying their best to restrain from using it in the TOP.
One of the reasons why Dyspo brought tension cause Goku held back Blue.
The manga just defined how much blue consumes if used consecutively unlike the anime.

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