Kinokima wrote:Boo Machine wrote:JazzMazz wrote:
Yeah, at the end of the Buu arc Vegeta's motivation for getting stronger changed to getting the strongest he could get, he ended his rivalry with Goku by accepting he was the best. In Super his done a complete 180 and gone back to being angry when Goku becomes way more powerful than him. Hell, in this arc alone Vegeta in one of the dumbest monologues ever states how his going to "be the one to knock out Kakarot and win the ToP".
Not that I think Vegeta is handled the best way possible, but I don't feel like just because he accepted Goku was better than him, that he suddenly has to stop being Gokus rival. Rivalries don't have to be antagonistic with 2 characters hating each other. Being a Rival means you're in competition with someone.
Which is why I disagree with vegeta being 1:1 with his Cell arc self. I disliked Cell arc Vegeta. That Vegeta put his ego over everything else to the point where it put everyone in danger. The vegeta in the current arc has gone out of his way to help Goku and Roshi. I feel like his monologue doesn't mean he is a gigantic prick again or regressed as a character. At the very least not to his Cell arc self.
Vegeta is absolutely nothing like Cell Vegeta. In this arc or any of Super. The fact that people can't see this means they miss subtle things about Vegeta's character or take everything he says at face value ignoring his actions.
A perfect example is the last episode when he tells Roshi that I am not here to help you I just can't stand Frost but when he sees Roshi is about to do the Mafuba again he yells stop moving around you will die. It is the same when he jumped into help Goku to fight the Universe 9 characters. It was obvious he jumped into help. But Vegeta is never going to outright admit that.
As for Vegeta saying I am going to win the TP on my own. He's still a Saiyan the same way Goku is. For both character the idea of relying on others is difficult for both of them. They want to fight the strongest characters and win on their own. It doesn't mean if someone is actually in trouble they will let them die or if it comes down to it and they need to use team work they won't. But of course in Vegeta's mind having to use team work is not what a Saiyan would do. And I could see Vegeta relying on himself to much and causing trouble for himself later down the line. But just because Vegeta is not perfect and can still make mistakes from time to time doesn't mean he is back to his old self either.
And yes Vegeta's rivalry with Goku in Super is completely different to how it was in Z. I already used the example in another thread of how Vegeta talked to Cabba and Future Trunks. That he expects them to try to surpass him. So if he says this Cabba and Trunks why would people think Vegeta is going to just sit around and just let Goku get stronger and stronger without trying to catch up to him. That's not in his nature. The difference in Super is this rivalry is not antagonistic (although it doesn't mean Vegeta will never ever be jealous of Goku but the difference is he can now move past that jealousy and still try to improve himself for the better whether he catches up to Goku or not).
Sorry when it comes to Vegeta I just have a lot to say!
It boggles my mind that people think that Vegeta's character in Super is anything like his characterisation in the Android/Cell arc. Android/Cell arc Vegeta was a bitter, angry, angsty bastard who bitched and moaned about nearly everything was willing to let people die to satisfy his ego. Vegeta's incarnation in Super is so far away from that.
In second episode of Super, he actually pulled through with his promise to go to take Kid Trunks on a day out, even though he clearly wasn't enjoying it, he still persevered for as long as he could to make Trunks and Bulma happy. Throughout the Future Trunks arc he was constantly supportive of Future Trunks and even mentioned that he wasn't fighting for himself but for Future Trunks world. And then he flat out refused to train with Goku in order to be with his wife at all time while she was heavily pregnant really speaks volumes for how much the character has progressed. He even wanted a more Saiyan-esque name form Bra and showed Trunks how to properly change her diaper. Vegeta during the Android/Cell arc would have never said or done any of this. Hell, even Majin Boo arc Vegeta wouldn't have said or done any of this since even during that time its established he's still quite distant with his family and socially reclusive given he admits he's never shown any physical affection towards his son.
People also take Vegeta's "Goku is Number 1" speech far to literally. There isn't enough context in the original story to suggest that after he admitted that Goku was "number 1", he just resided to that fact and stopped training because he's fine with status quo of being forever second banana to Goku. Vegeta knows that Goku for the moment is his superior but that doesn't equate to Vegeta residing to never wanting to improve himself. That is further emphasised with the Kanzenban ending of the final chapter in the manga where Vegeta states that he still wants to defeat Goku, and by that virtue, he wants to become as strong, if not, stronger than Goku. That desire of wanting to improve himself is still there. We don't actually know what Vegeta was doing from the end of Majin Boo arc to the final chapter in the manga. He may have still be training with the secret desire of wanting to keep with Goku.
The fact he's not perturbed at all by the wacky and goofy situations he may get himself into, like the escapades of the Copy Vegeta arc and the Arale episode, and the fact he's more than willing to humble himself, as shown with Beerus, just shows how much his character has grown. Yes, Vegeta still a guy that can still occasionally get angry and/or frustrated in some scenarios, like when Goku pulled off the SSJB/Kaioken combination technique, but quickly understands and accepts the fact that there some things that Goku can do that he can't, and doesn't angst and mentally stew over the whole deal and doesn't fly off the handle like he would have done many years ago.
Vegeta is more than willing to express his love and care for his family from time to time and how much his friendship with Goku means to him. Vegeta talking about how he'll defeat Goku and be the last one standing in the Tournament Of Power are statements that don't really hold a lot of weight to them considering you know it's just typical competitive banter from the context of a rivalry that's far more friendly and civil. Anybody who's family with any kind competitive sport, especially football and boxing, know that rivalries like that exist and comments like the one Vegeta made are extremely common. The progress into being friendly rivals who use each other to measure their personal growth is progress indeed. Vegeta doesn't need to be completely indifferent to Goku's ability and his progression of strength. It's just no longer the sole factor in determining his self-worth.
People may not be so keen on Vegeta being domesticated, but I enjoy seeing dad and supporting husband and actually being more outward with how much he wants to care for his family instead of being a tsundere twit about it like he was in the Majin Boo arc or the spiteful, whiny, evil prick who had a huge chip on his shoulder and was willing to let people die to satisfy his ego like he was in the Android/Cell arc.
So... yeah. I can't understand how anyone can think that Vegeta's characterisation in Super resemble that of the how he was characterised in the Future Trunks arc. He's show in Super to be not the same guy who always seemed to have a stick the size of Texas always stuck up his ass. Vegeta's characterisation is natural evolution of the character given he's learnt that life is too shot to pissed, grumpy or condescending over everything or anything and just settled down.
