Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

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Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:24 pm

What is he?

1. A Mortal
2. A non fused character.
3. Related to the points above again, he's not a God, nor does he (presumably) possess God ki, but rather mortal ki.) he's just an Alien.. a random alien, normal ki- using, non fused mortal, that may or may not train and/or have special skills that SOMEHOW is this insanely strong where he most likely rivals or even surpasses a God of Destruction. How does that make any sense from a storywriting perspective?

Look at the past, and these previous villains actually had a reason to be as powerful as they were.

1. Vegeta (Prince of the saiyans, nr.1)
2. Freeza (strongest alien being in the universe) i mean, at least someone has to be right?
3. Beyond biology! (Unfair unnatural, unlimited energy powerful androids!) makes sense right? They surpass even the most powerful biological being in the universe (Freeza).
4. Cell has been designed to be superior to them in anyway, and to top it off, absorbs them to become even stronger! (Makes totally sense!)
5. To end it all, the legendary, ancient Magical being (monster) Buu! A being so strange, it has existed forever, can regenerate on the highest level, can survive anything, can turn people into anything he wants, and just basically is the highest known entity at the time. (Makes sense for him to be so strong aswell) he's no ordinary alien... thats the point i want to make.
6. Beerus, the God of Destruction! need i say more about this one? It's all in his name!

So what is Jiren?
A random grey! Is this the best Toriyama can come up with????

Let me know your thoughts!

Again:
1. Strongest biological being
2. Unnaturally powerful androids
3. Ancient magical and indestructible force of nature
4. God of Destruction.


5.... A Random Alien...
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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by Boo Machine » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:38 pm

I don't think we know nearly enough about Jiren to say whether or not his strength makes any sense. If the roles of Jiren and Beerus were reversed and Jiren was the God of destruction we all knew and loved, and Beerus was the mysterious fighter, then we would be saying "What the hell, he is just a purple cat!" In fact when the poster for Battle of Gods came out I remember some folk being upset that the new major villain was some purple Egyptian rabbit. I think we should know better by now not to assume things by appearances alone. Being a God of destruction doesn't make a character strong, a character becomes a god of destruction because they are strong. So even IF jiren was stronger than one, it's not an outlandish concept. Toppo himself is a candidate to be a God of Destruction.

Also just because Beerus was the last strong guy doesn't mean that the next strong Guy has to be even stronger. There haven't been any yet that surpass him, because Beerus isn't just another antagonist. He has a role in the universe and is arguably a goal for Goku to reach one day. So whatever challenge Goku faces doesn't necessarily have to be stronger than Beerus. They just have to be tough enough to challenge Goku. If the little monkey boy from space can get where he is through hard work, then there really isn't any reason any other fighter in any universe couldn't reach that point as well through work or even other methods.
Last edited by Boo Machine on Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:49 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by Yedis » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:43 pm

I thought you were going to go another direction and ask how can a race produce someone this strong (Jiren), but not have any other members of the race on the team? :lol:


However, we don't know enough about Jiren's background to make this declaration imo. He could be prodigy, a result of experimentation, a mutant, a hybrid of a bunch of species, etc, etc. With the characters you listed we have the luxury of knowing some background information.

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by Benedetto12 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:51 pm

We don´t know nothing about Jiren, except: He is the stronger pride trooper, even stronger than Toppo who is a GOD candidate.

His might can be justified various ways, just wait till we know more of him

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:58 pm

Just going off the NEP, Belmond seems to know Jiren. Maybe it was like Goku and Vegeta in U7 and Jiren and Toppo trained with Belmond and Marcarita.

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:00 pm

Boo Machine wrote:I don't think we know nearly enough about Jiren to say whether or not his strength makes any sense. If the roles of Jiren and Beerus were reversed and Jiren was the God of destruction we all knew and loved, and Beerus was the mysterious fighter, then we would be saying "What the hell, he is just a purple cat!" In fact when the poster for Battle of Gods came out I remember some folk being upset that the new major villain was some purple Egyptian rabbit. I think we should know better by now not to assume things by appearances alone. Being a God of destruction doesn't make a character strong, a character becomes a god of destruction because they are strong. So even IF jiren was stronger than one, it's not an outlandish concept. Toppo himself is a candidate to be a God of Destruction.

Also just because Beerus was the last strong guy doesn't mean that the next strong Guy has to be even stronger. There haven't been any yet that surpass him, because Beerus isn't just another antagonist. He has a role in the universe and is arguably a goal for Goku to reach one day. So whatever challenge Goku faces doesn't necessarily have to be stronger than Beerus. They just have to be tough enough to challenge Goku. If the little monkey boy from space can get where he is through hard work, then there really isn't any reason any other fighter in any universe couldn't reach that point as well through work or even other methods.
This is soo wrong on so many levels. Yes. You have to be at a certain level in order to be considered worthy of taking on the job of destroyer, HOWEVER this is not just it. Taking on the role and thereby actually becoming a God of Destruction, together with the training you'll be receiving from your new Angel Guide, is what gives you an extremely, in fact, insanely, massive power boost. Not only that, but you will gain new insanely haxed abilities, such as surviving in space, the ability to ERASE anyone just by saying Hakai, the ability to sense or perhaps even smell murderous intent, God Ki, etc. And perhaps many more for all we know.

So while you need to be already strong in order to be a possible candidate, the act of actually becoming a GoD and taking on the role is what makes you truly out of everyone's leaque.
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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by HeroR » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:04 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: This is soo wrong on so many levels. Yes. You have to be at a certain level in order to be considered worthy of taking on the job of destroyer, HOWEVER this is not just it. Taking on the role and thereby actually becoming a God of Destruction, together with the training you'll be receiving from your new Angel Guide, is what gives you an extremely, in fact, insanely, massive power boost. Not only that, but you will gain new insanely haxed abilities, such as surviving in space, the ability to ERASE anyone just by saying Hakai, the ability to sense or perhaps even smell murderous intent, God Ki, etc. And perhaps many more for all we know.

So while you need to be already strong in order to be a possible candidate, the act of actually becoming a GoD and taking on the role is what makes you truly out of everyone's leaque.
That is your speculation. The process of becoming a God of Destruction has never been laid out, other than you have to be strong.

Please don't pushed your headcanon as fact.
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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:11 pm

HeroR wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote: This is soo wrong on so many levels. Yes. You have to be at a certain level in order to be considered worthy of taking on the job of destroyer, HOWEVER this is not just it. Taking on the role and thereby actually becoming a God of Destruction, together with the training you'll be receiving from your new Angel Guide, is what gives you an extremely, in fact, insanely, massive power boost. Not only that, but you will gain new insanely haxed abilities, such as surviving in space, the ability to ERASE anyone just by saying Hakai, the ability to sense or perhaps even smell murderous intent, God Ki, etc. And perhaps many more for all we know.

So while you need to be already strong in order to be a possible candidate, the act of actually becoming a GoD and taking on the role is what makes you truly out of everyone's leaque.
That is your speculation. The process of becoming a God of Destruction has never been laid out, other than you have to be strong.

Please don't pushed your headcanon as fact.
It doesn't have to be laid out in words for us, as the audience, we are expected to fill in certain gaps. It's only logical to assume it would increase their powers, i don't need their confirmation for such a thing. Reason and logic trump all. And i wouldn't exactly call that "headcanon" either as you like to put it, we know for a fact that they gain several "abilities" such as the ones i provided above, so as a next logical assumption, we can assume that besides these newly gained "abilities" their power likewise increases, especially with the whole God ki they will gain. And before you begin to argue that God Ki isn't neccesarily always stronger than regular ki... It's pretty much shown that WHENEVER a regular ki user gains God ki, their power goes up, as shown with Goku and Vegeta and perhaps several others.
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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by Boo Machine » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:14 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: This is soo wrong on so many levels. Yes. You have to be at a certain level in order to be considered worthy of taking on the job of destroyer, HOWEVER this is not just it. Taking on the role and thereby actually becoming a God of Destruction, together with the training you'll be receiving from your new Angel Guide, is what gives you an extremely, in fact, insanely, massive power boost. Not only that, but you will gain new insanely haxed abilities, such as surviving in space, the ability to ERASE anyone just by saying Hakai, the ability to sense or perhaps even smell murderous intent, God Ki, etc. And perhaps many more for all we know.

So while you need to be already strong in order to be a possible candidate, the act of actually becoming a GoD and taking on the role is what makes you truly out of everyone's leaque.
It's not wrong, let alone on multiple levels. (You only discussed one level anyway. ARE YOU HOLDING OUT ON ME!?) I simply didn't bother to go into as much detail because it wasn't the point of the thread. That and it's never quite laid out in the series itself in much detail how to whole process works. Obviously I can see how, if one is chosen to be a God of Destruction, that they might be trained by whomever and become even more powerful and learn whatever it is they need to learn (God Ki, I guess). But to be considered to be a God of destruction one would assume that the candidate has to be pretty damn powerful already.

This is also an assumption on my part but I highly doubt they just pick up anyone to be given such a big responsibility. When I say " Being a God of destruction doesn't make a character strong, a character becomes a god of destruction because they are strong", I'm not saying that character was weak before. I only meant to say that the position or title doesn't give the character strength automatically. It's a job description not a magic spell.

Though even if I was wrong about all this, it still doesn't invalidate my original point, Jiren doesn't have to be as strong as a God of Destruction to be the next challenge to Goku.
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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by Jigurashi » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:44 pm

He literally could have just trained to be at the level he's at now. I don't see how his power makes no sense when we know very little about him.

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by HeroR » Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:39 am

GodVegetto91 wrote: It doesn't have to be laid out in words for us, as the audience, we are expected to fill in certain gaps. It's only logical to assume it would increase their powers, i don't need their confirmation for such a thing. Reason and logic trump all. And i wouldn't exactly call that "headcanon" either as you like to put it, we know for a fact that they gain several "abilities" such as the ones i provided above, so as a next logical assumption, we can assume that besides these newly gained "abilities" their power likewise increases, especially with the whole God ki they will gain. And before you begin to argue that God Ki isn't neccesarily always stronger than regular ki... It's pretty much shown that WHENEVER a regular ki user gains God ki, their power goes up, as shown with Goku and Vegeta and perhaps several others.
You mean like the fandom was so certain that the golden Super Saiyan forms were gone?

It isn't logical, it's your using headcanon to fill in holes and then complaining that your headcanon may not be correct. We don't even know how these 'abilities' are gained since manga Goku did Haki with no special training that we know of.
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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:35 am

I don't think Jiren has god ki, since the previews imply everyone will be able to feel it when he powers up. God ki can't be sensed normally, unless they forgot that little detail.

There is precedent for a character being as strong as Jiren is though: Freeza. Yes, he was initially weaker than the Androids, Cell or Buu, but he managed to eclipse them with just four months of training, and go even further beyond that with meditation, which incidentally seems to be Jiren's main method of training. If we assume that unlike Freeza, Jiren trains regularly (those pecs don't lie) you could easily justify him being as insanely strong as he is. We'll have to wait and see what kind of explanation they give him.

It is a little ridiculous that he's SO far above anyone else in the tournament, but at the same time Goku and Vegeta have such a massive advantage over everyone else by having god ki, they need a threat like that to balance it out.

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by Freeza9000 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:42 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:Related to the points above again, he's not a God, nor does he (presumably) possess God ki, but rather mortal ki.) he's just an Alien.. a random alien, normal ki- using, non fused mortal, that may or may not train and/or have special skills that SOMEHOW is this insanely strong where he most likely rivals or even surpasses a God of Destruction. How does that make any sense from a storywriting perspective?
So what are you basing all this off again? Oh right, your own headcanon.

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by MaskedRider » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:56 am

I wouldn't rhetorically ask if this is the best Toriyama could come up with, I would say that it is a very Toriyama thing to come up with given past Dragon Ball antagonists (Freeza being universally recognized as terrifying and then...cyborgs built on Earth...? I know you pointed out it going beyond biology but its still wild)

You also have to remember that Gods in the context of DB can die just as easily as humans and possessing God Ki doesn't stop you from being hurt by the basic of sci fi concepts such as a laser. We don't know anything about Jiren's racial biology or his people. If I recall correctly we saw him meditating and for all we know that could be his people's sacred ancient ritual to boosting your being. We're also talking about a series where an immortal being could potentially be sealed away in a broken vase put together by glue.

My two cents on Jiren though is that he seems boring compared to Hit. At least Hit has layers with his assassination background and his moves involving time. Jiren is just WOAH HES FAST! WOAH HES STRONG!

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by TheOne » Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:56 am

MKCSTEALTH wrote:Just going off the NEP, Belmond seems to know Jiren. Maybe it was like Goku and Vegeta in U7 and Jiren and Toppo trained with Belmond and Marcarita.
Naturally he had to meet him over the last 40 hours. But I seriously doubt he knew Jiren before the exhibition match.

Belmond wouldn't of been so concerned if toppo could take Goku in the tournament. Toppo reassured him if he couldn't, his friend Jiren would do it.
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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by Kishido » Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:59 am

I just ask myself how strong would the likes as Jiren, Hit and Co would be with god ki.

Hell I do not even understand why Vados hasn’t even tried to reach it Hit if she knows about his on the fly learning

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by SansrivaaL » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:41 am

Why does it need to be fcking complicated and you start lashing out on Toriyama and making a remark like "is that the best Toriyama can think of?"
He made a mysterious character thats living up to his title, a stronger being than the one who's supposed to be next GoD on their universe, need I say more?

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:27 am

BOG showed there were mortal beings who could stand against the gods.

At this point we do need to know more about Jiren, though.
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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:21 am

As others have pointed out, there is not enough known about Jiren's background to determine why he's so strong. But even in that case, do we need a backstory? Can't we just have a character in Dragon Ball who is very strong and doesn't need to rely on a gimmick for that to be the case? This seems like another case of making a mountain out a molehill.
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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by Kanassa » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:15 am

TheOne wrote:
MKCSTEALTH wrote:Just going off the NEP, Belmond seems to know Jiren. Maybe it was like Goku and Vegeta in U7 and Jiren and Toppo trained with Belmond and Marcarita.
Naturally he had to meet him over the last 40 hours. But I seriously doubt he knew Jiren before the exhibition match.

Belmond wouldn't of been so concerned if toppo could take Goku in the tournament. Toppo reassured him if he couldn't, his friend Jiren would do it.
To be fair, he could have met Jiren before all this, but just at a point in Jiren's life where he wasn't so strong.
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