Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

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TheMikado
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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by TheMikado » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:25 pm

Meshack wrote:
I’m not reading the essays but Mikado, you have the wrong idea of Manga Gokuh and Manga Toppo. Toppo said Gokuh was off-guard so he was able to counter. He also said if he wasn’t able to, he wouldn’t have know if he would be able to beat him. Toppo and Gokuh are around the same power. We just don’t know who’s stronger than other.
Why is there an issue that a human is stronger than a Hakaishin? You know this isna fictional world where Toriyama can have the characters as strong as they are the way he wants them to write? We don’t know what Jiren has gone through to get to the level he is at. He meditates a lot and that is probably the way he gets most of his training from. Maybe he does a different kind of meditation. Maybe he does have god ki. Toppo was shown to have god ki in the manga. Maybe Jiren has it too. Jiren is a Pride Trooper so maybe he fights stronger opponents and gets stronger than that. You’re logic is that Jiren shouldn’t be so strong because of his peers but Gokuh and Vegeta are more powerful than the other members of the Dragon Team. NO WAY they can be as strong as they are because the others are not as strong! Gokuh’s power make no sense because Gohan is not as strong as Gokuh. Kamesennin is the weakest of them all but Vegeta can’t be as strong as he is because Kamesennin is not as strong... See... your logic is flawed. The difference between Gokuh and Jiren is that we’ve seen Gokuh’s struggle to get as strong as he is, not Jiren
No unfortunately you have it wrong.

In the manga Goku's stronger form is CSSB which is the state he fights Toppo in.
In the anime Goku fights in SSBxKK and are around equal, yet we know for a fact Goku can turn it up to SSBxKKx10 at will.

Thus in the manga Goku is around Toppo's level of power AT HIS MAX.
In the anime Toppo is around a FRACTION of Goku's full power that we are aware of at the time. That's the difference.
Basically in the anime we have zero idea where they are relative to each other's max strength because neither showed it.
Goku could be several times stronger than Toppo as SSBxKKx10 or Toppo could be 100x stronger. Which means Jiren would need to be several times stronger than that.
We have no idea how strong anyone else because that's the trend of the anime. Its ambiguous. The easiest way to interpret the anime scene is that Toppo is outclassed by SSBxKK which is only a fraction of Goku's know full power, but we have no idea what's true or not.

In the manga we know for a fact Goku is around Toppo's level at his strongest in his strongest form.

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by buutenks » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:12 pm

Well in Jiren's defense. GoDs of each universe were previously mortals. So, Jiren could be a GoD, but he doesnt want. I am pretty sure most GoDs were granted GoD status because they were ridiculously powerful and gifted, while others were proly very powerful but needed more training so they trained and eventually reached that level, like Toppo.

Now if say, Jiren was Angel level, then ye, that would make zero sense. So, Jiren should be viewed as a powerful GoD, but without Hakai.

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by Meshack » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:12 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Meshack wrote:
I’m not reading the essays but Mikado, you have the wrong idea of Manga Gokuh and Manga Toppo. Toppo said Gokuh was off-guard so he was able to counter. He also said if he wasn’t able to, he wouldn’t have know if he would be able to beat him. Toppo and Gokuh are around the same power. We just don’t know who’s stronger than other.
Why is there an issue that a human is stronger than a Hakaishin? You know this isna fictional world where Toriyama can have the characters as strong as they are the way he wants them to write? We don’t know what Jiren has gone through to get to the level he is at. He meditates a lot and that is probably the way he gets most of his training from. Maybe he does a different kind of meditation. Maybe he does have god ki. Toppo was shown to have god ki in the manga. Maybe Jiren has it too. Jiren is a Pride Trooper so maybe he fights stronger opponents and gets stronger than that. You’re logic is that Jiren shouldn’t be so strong because of his peers but Gokuh and Vegeta are more powerful than the other members of the Dragon Team. NO WAY they can be as strong as they are because the others are not as strong! Gokuh’s power make no sense because Gohan is not as strong as Gokuh. Kamesennin is the weakest of them all but Vegeta can’t be as strong as he is because Kamesennin is not as strong... See... your logic is flawed. The difference between Gokuh and Jiren is that we’ve seen Gokuh’s struggle to get as strong as he is, not Jiren
No unfortunately you have it wrong.

In the manga Goku's stronger form is CSSB which is the state he fights Toppo in.
In the anime Goku fights in SSBxKK and are around equal, yet we know for a fact Goku can turn it up to SSBxKKx10 at will.

Thus in the manga Goku is around Toppo's level of power AT HIS MAX.
In the anime Toppo is around a FRACTION of Goku's full power that we are aware of at the time. That's the difference.
Basically in the anime we have zero idea where they are relative to each other's max strength because neither showed it.
Goku could be several times stronger than Toppo as SSBxKKx10 or Toppo could be 100x stronger. Which means Jiren would need to be several times stronger than that.
We have no idea how strong anyone else because that's the trend of the anime. Its ambiguous. The easiest way to interpret the anime scene is that Toppo is outclassed by SSBxKK which is only a fraction of Goku's know full power, but we have no idea what's true or not.

In the manga we know for a fact Goku is around Toppo's level at his strongest in his strongest form.
Why are you using the anime as a reference for what Toyotarou does in the manga? Not saying it’s forbidden but the anime is pretty inconsistent with the power.

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by greeZH » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:20 am

My theory. Jiren is the god of destruction of universe 11. Not Vermouth.

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:07 am

TheMikado wrote:
Meshack wrote:
I’m not reading the essays but Mikado, you have the wrong idea of Manga Gokuh and Manga Toppo. Toppo said Gokuh was off-guard so he was able to counter. He also said if he wasn’t able to, he wouldn’t have know if he would be able to beat him. Toppo and Gokuh are around the same power. We just don’t know who’s stronger than other.
Why is there an issue that a human is stronger than a Hakaishin? You know this isna fictional world where Toriyama can have the characters as strong as they are the way he wants them to write? We don’t know what Jiren has gone through to get to the level he is at. He meditates a lot and that is probably the way he gets most of his training from. Maybe he does a different kind of meditation. Maybe he does have god ki. Toppo was shown to have god ki in the manga. Maybe Jiren has it too. Jiren is a Pride Trooper so maybe he fights stronger opponents and gets stronger than that. You’re logic is that Jiren shouldn’t be so strong because of his peers but Gokuh and Vegeta are more powerful than the other members of the Dragon Team. NO WAY they can be as strong as they are because the others are not as strong! Gokuh’s power make no sense because Gohan is not as strong as Gokuh. Kamesennin is the weakest of them all but Vegeta can’t be as strong as he is because Kamesennin is not as strong... See... your logic is flawed. The difference between Gokuh and Jiren is that we’ve seen Gokuh’s struggle to get as strong as he is, not Jiren
No unfortunately you have it wrong.

In the manga Goku's stronger form is CSSB which is the state he fights Toppo in.
In the anime Goku fights in SSBxKK and are around equal, yet we know for a fact Goku can turn it up to SSBxKKx10 at will.

Thus in the manga Goku is around Toppo's level of power AT HIS MAX.
In the anime Toppo is around a FRACTION of Goku's full power that we are aware of at the time. That's the difference.
Basically in the anime we have zero idea where they are relative to each other's max strength because neither showed it.
Goku could be several times stronger than Toppo as SSBxKKx10 or Toppo could be 100x stronger. Which means Jiren would need to be several times stronger than that.
We have no idea how strong anyone else because that's the trend of the anime. Its ambiguous. The easiest way to interpret the anime scene is that Toppo is outclassed by SSBxKK which is only a fraction of Goku's know full power, but we have no idea what's true or not.

In the manga we know for a fact Goku is around Toppo's level at his strongest in his strongest form.
In the anime Toppo is also stated multiple times by multiple characters to be Goku's equal or roughly equal.

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by Saturnine » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:36 am

Also, in the anime Goku's around equal to Toppo at regular SSj Blue, with no Kaioken. He only went Kaioken at the end, no exchange of blows was made from that point, because the GP stopped the fight.

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by gofishus » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:57 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
It's not forbidden, the issue was and has been the gap in power. The gap between the rest of everyone in the tournament and Jiren was so wide and vast Jiren should be legendary. Yet he is played like a complete nobody. As stated above, Jiren may only be slightly stronger than the strongest fighters of his universe in manga. So nothing so exceptional about him other than just happening to be the strongest out of the Pride Troops.

Basically
Anime: Jiren appears to be very strong by a wide margin. Far stronger than SSJxKKx20. Toppo seems to have trouble with SSKxKK. Jiren is at least 10x possibly a lot more than that than Toppo.
Jiren was forced to be this exceptionally strong because Toppo was not overwhelming against SSBxKK. Thus because your starting point is so high you have to artificially inflate Jiren further to increase the drama because we know Goku can go SSBxKKx10 at will.

Manga: Jiren is stronger Toppo who is stronger than Goku's strongest forms. Even if Jiren is only 2x stronger than Toppo, Goku has nothing to combat this. Drama is still present without increasing the strength of Jiren and in turn the power gap.

So again to break this down. Because of the setup Jiren can be only mildly stronger than Toppo and still a dire threat in the manga. This helps the suspension of belief even within a fictional world. In the anime, Jiren must be at least 10x stronger than Toppo to even be at the level where he can rival Goku in his stronger form. Thus in order to make him a threat Jiren must be beyond 10x stronger than SSB which subsequently leaves every other character in the dust powerwise and make every other fighter trivial by comparison to Goku's power which he will fight Jiren at.

This is more about setup and story construction. The characters can be as strong as they need to be, but an 2x gap in power is going to be a lot easier to swallow than 100x gap in power and I would think a good author would be prepared to explain why that gap is so large. It's not that the gap can't exist but one that size is going to harder to explain as "just because".
We've still yet to see everyone in the tournament fight. So to say that Jiren is far beyond anyone in the tournament is really jumping the gun. Especially from Jiren's own account as he's only fought Goku and Hit with any kind of serious effort. How strong Jiren is to the rest of the competition in the Tournament Of Power is still inconclusive because there's no determination of how strong every other character that is still remaining in this Tournament Of Power compared to among themselves.

The only thing that was stated essentially rumoured was that there was a mortal stronger than Hakaishin. And of course, that was a rumour. There's no way that Jiren could have become household name because of his power as a) Nobody knows who Jiren is outside of the Pride Troopers b) The concept of a mortal being as strong or stronger than Hakaishin was an unsubstantiated rumour, very much like the initial SSJ. And the anime has been VERY vague about whether Jiren is indeed stronger than a Hakaishin as it's never directly stated to be the case. Of course, Jiren's bio on Toei's website states his power is in the same domain as an Hakaishin, but bio's of characters in the Tournament Of Power on website have been changed in the past.

In the anime, Toppo fought evenly with SSJB Goku, and even withstood a Kamehameha at point-blank range from him. And then Toppo basically shrugged over everything that just happened and began to power up, indicating that he wasn't even facing SSJB Goku at his strongest. And Goku replying by powering up, through stacking the Kaioken on top of SSJB. Grand Priest even instructs the both of them stop when he notices this because even he believed if they were going to fight like that, one of them would die. So there's no concrete indication that Toppo couldn't withstand SSJB with Kaioken stacked on top, as the fight is left ambiguous as to who would win if the both of them were to go all out. And Toppo even notes that if the best that Goku can do is match his strength, then Jiren will absolutely defeat him in battle in the Tournament Of Power. And before Goku went Ultra Instinct, we've actually yet to see Goku fight Toppo again. For all we know, Toppo when he's fully powered up, could face Goku with Kaioken x2/3/5/10/20 stacked on top and actually defeat him. So whether Goku could defeat Toppo when they both go all out is still up in the air. The situation with Toppo's strength compared to Goku is made even more ambiguous given both parties stated they weren't sure if they could defeat the other opponent.

Both the anime and manga actually have an identical setup: Goku using SSJB can't defeat Toppo and Jiren is stronger than a Hakaishin. The anime adds the emphasis of this by having Toppo indicating he wasn't fighting at full strength and also withstanding everything that SSJB Goku could dish out to him and insinuating that Goku would need to stack Kaioken on top on SSJB to have a chance of possibly defeating him. And the manga adds emphasis to this by having Toppo ring out (Mastered) SSJB Goku almost immediately after Goku turned into (Mastered) SSJB.

As you said characters, can be strong as they need to be, which is pretty much the rule of thumb in Dragon Ball. The reason for an immense gap in strength is something that is rarely discussed in-universe. Nobody every questioned why Freeza, in his suppressed base form was at least 30 times stronger than any of the major antagonist in the previous arc (Vegeta, Nappa and Raditz). The only thing that was established about Freeza is that he was a very strong person in the universe who went around conquering planets. There was no elaboration on where that strength came from or how he developed it. Freeza just had that incredible amount of power to flex around and no one at the time could challenge him.It same reason why the Android were much stronger than Super Saiyans, even though the person who built the Androids had no idea that Super Saiyan even existed. No one questioned how that could be the case. That was just scenario that need to be the case for the plot to move forward, regardless of lack of logic behind it.
But the step is only the same if you were reading bulletpoints which ironically is likely why we have such a discrepancy in execution.
In the anime we know Goku has the capability to SSBxKKx10 and that at whatever level he fought Toppo at he was able to inflict a hit on him.
In fact, at no point was manga Goku even able to land a hit at all on Toppo and that is with Goku using the known full extent of his power which contrasts greatly with the presentation of Goku only using 10% of his maximum power that we know of.

That's pretty much my point, in one scenario Goku is going all at at his highest form and cannot even land a hit. In the other we have Goku able to get 10x stronger but still getting hits in on Toppo and seeming to have the edge.

As far as the no explanation for previous scenarios I've said it 100x times, just because it was done previously doesn't make it good and doesn't give license to do it again even worse. Frieza is the arc I detest the most of Z partially due to this.

However, even in this Frieza is the emperior of the entire universe. He has status and a proven record no one else can be close to claiming. His power matches his title.
The Androids were the apocalyptic doomsday bringers. Their power matched what they were plot and character wise.
Cell claims to be the ultimate life-form formed from the cells of the strongest creatures. His power, once completed, matches his claim.

Jiren is a Pride troop. And that's fine but what about Jiren separates him from the other Pride Trooper? His Strength alone.

The difference in presentation here is that in the manga the Pride Troops as a whole are getting representation as being exceedingly strong against Goku's strongest form. Whether that continues is unknown. However the setup seems to be making the Pride Troops over all a strong group just like the Ginyu force rather than groups strength being represented by a single character. In this way Jiren is and can be just the strong silent guy, because he isn't the whole enemy, rather the Pride Troopers as a whole are a possible treat to Goku rather than just Jiren himself.

The dynamic completely changes from him being Super strong when compared to his peers to just the strong guy among the already really strong guys that are giving Goku trouble.

I do think we have to wait to see how it all plays out but thus far the step narratively is exactly what I expected. My chief complaint on Jirenx execution has been Jirens exceptionalism in this tournament and once again my chief argument has been addressed by the narrative of the manga. I don’t think that my ability to identify these issues and the mangas ability to correct them are mere coincidence. It’s because i an identifying a real and valid storytelling critique of the anime and the manga uses good story telling mechanisms to correct it avoid that issue.
It’s clear when making the manga they realized the folly of Jirens exceptionalism too.
No the Androids dont make any sense. A human who had no knowledge of Super Saiyans built them and they ended up being many times stronger than Frieza who was the Lord of the Universe. That doesn't make sense. Frieza is the strongest natural born creature in the universe, ok I can get that. Majin Buu - he's strong because he's thousand year old ancient evil, ok I can get that. But why are robots that are artificially created so powerful? They have no right to be more powerful than super saiyans - and they are localized to Earth btw, not universal scale like Frieza or Majin Buu. And freaking Cell - who never been to any other planet besides Earth - is at the power level of a SSJ2. And now we have Android 17 who apparently is god tier after training for a few months.

I never understood why the Android were and are as powerful as they are. Jiren makes more sense to me than Android 17 does.

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by gohan_black » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:01 pm

jiren fighting skill is boring as well. hes just strong. he dosent have any interesting teqhnics like hit got

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by TheMikado » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:33 am

Meshack wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Meshack wrote:
Why is there an issue that a human is stronger than a Hakaishin? You know this isna fictional world where Toriyama can have the characters as strong as they are the way he wants them to write? We don’t know what Jiren has gone through to get to the level he is at. He meditates a lot and that is probably the way he gets most of his training from. Maybe he does a different kind of meditation. Maybe he does have god ki. Toppo was shown to have god ki in the manga. Maybe Jiren has it too. Jiren is a Pride Trooper so maybe he fights stronger opponents and gets stronger than that. You’re logic is that Jiren shouldn’t be so strong because of his peers but Gokuh and Vegeta are more powerful than the other members of the Dragon Team. NO WAY they can be as strong as they are because the others are not as strong! Gokuh’s power make no sense because Gohan is not as strong as Gokuh. Kamesennin is the weakest of them all but Vegeta can’t be as strong as he is because Kamesennin is not as strong... See... your logic is flawed. The difference between Gokuh and Jiren is that we’ve seen Gokuh’s struggle to get as strong as he is, not Jiren
No unfortunately you have it wrong.

In the manga Goku's stronger form is CSSB which is the state he fights Toppo in.
In the anime Goku fights in SSBxKK and are around equal, yet we know for a fact Goku can turn it up to SSBxKKx10 at will.

Thus in the manga Goku is around Toppo's level of power AT HIS MAX.
In the anime Toppo is around a FRACTION of Goku's full power that we are aware of at the time. That's the difference.
Basically in the anime we have zero idea where they are relative to each other's max strength because neither showed it.
Goku could be several times stronger than Toppo as SSBxKKx10 or Toppo could be 100x stronger. Which means Jiren would need to be several times stronger than that.
We have no idea how strong anyone else because that's the trend of the anime. Its ambiguous. The easiest way to interpret the anime scene is that Toppo is outclassed by SSBxKK which is only a fraction of Goku's know full power, but we have no idea what's true or not.

In the manga we know for a fact Goku is around Toppo's level at his strongest in his strongest form.
Why are you using the anime as a reference for what Toyotarou does in the manga? Not saying it’s forbidden but the anime is pretty inconsistent with the power.
That was the entire point of the things I wrote. It's that in the anime it requires Jiren to be 5-10x stronger than Toppo. Where the manga Jiren could be 0.5x stronger than Toppo and still be a tremendous threat to Goku because he does not have anything about the form he fight Toppo with. Goku shows his max power against Toppo in the manga and loses. Jiren doesn't have to be much stronger than Toppo in the manga to be a threat. That was my point. The narrative is structured such that there does not have to be a gigantic gap in power between Toppo and Jiren.

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by TheMikado » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:39 am

gofishus wrote:
No the Androids dont make any sense. A human who had no knowledge of Super Saiyans built them and they ended up being many times stronger than Frieza who was the Lord of the Universe. That doesn't make sense. Frieza is the strongest natural born creature in the universe, ok I can get that. Majin Buu - he's strong because he's thousand year old ancient evil, ok I can get that. But why are robots that are artificially created so powerful? They have no right to be more powerful than super saiyans - and they are localized to Earth btw, not universal scale like Frieza or Majin Buu. And freaking Cell - who never been to any other planet besides Earth - is at the power level of a SSJ2. And now we have Android 17 who apparently is god tier after training for a few months.

I never understood why the Android were and are as powerful as they are. Jiren makes more sense to me than Android 17 does.

The androids use a plot device. There's an actually literary term for it to describe it. Whether you agree if its a valid reason or not has no baring on whether or not it exists.

For example. Super is super strong because he is a kryptonian born under a red sun and our yellow sun gives him superpowers for some reason. You can argue its a stupid reason, but you can't argue that a reason has not been provided. That's the point people are missing. If they said some BS that Jiren mediates and harnesses energy, its a BS reason but its a reason. I hate the SSG form and its lore, but they still have a reason on why Goku suddenly gets strong enough to fight a God in order to move the plot forward.

Jiren at this point doesn't even have that. He's exceptionally strong just because he is not marginally or slightly, but highly exceptional for no reason revealed thus far.

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by Meshack » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:54 am

gohan_black wrote:jiren fighting skill is boring as well. hes just strong. he dosent have any interesting teqhnics like hit got
Maybe he’s suppose to be a powerhouse...

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:01 am

Meshack wrote:
gohan_black wrote:jiren fighting skill is boring as well. hes just strong. he dosent have any interesting teqhnics like hit got
Maybe he’s suppose to be a powerhouse...
His boring even as far as powerhouses go because he has all of two personality traits. Also, powerhouses usually still use some form of strategy to get them over the edge.

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Re: Actually, it makes no sense for Jiren to be THIS strong..

Post by TheMikado » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:47 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Meshack wrote:
gohan_black wrote:jiren fighting skill is boring as well. hes just strong. he dosent have any interesting teqhnics like hit got
Maybe he’s suppose to be a powerhouse...
His boring even as far as powerhouses go because he has all of two personality traits. Also, powerhouses usually still use some form of strategy to get them over the edge.
Recoome and Nappa were both "Powerhouse" types. It's possible to be that and have more than one dimension.

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