What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

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What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by KingKaash » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:51 am

I know so many of us fans are anxious and excited to see Goku's new form in action. The aesthetics are great! But how will you fans react if there is no explanation on how Goku unlocks this new form? Take it one step further, what if we don't even get a name for this new form right away?

Why do I even bring this up? My main reason is Future Trunks and his Super Saiyan Rage/Anger form. We received no real explanation in the anime on how this form is achieved. The name itself came out later which also added to the confusion when the form made it's debut since at first we didn't even know what to call it. But from the name we can derive that the form is achieved through some deep feeling of anger. Still it's never truly explained on-screen in the anime.

Other examples I could point to would be Goku and Vegeta reaching Super Saiyan Blue and the idea of Vegeta also reaching Super Saiyan God on his own training. When it comes to Goku and Vegeta going SSJB, we learn it's through training with Whis on Beerus' planet but we never actually see how Goku or Vegeta get it for the first time. And then Vegeta attaining SSJG is more of an assumption since we've also never seen Vegeta go SSJG on-screen either in the anime. We just believe Vegeta can because SSJG is step before reaching SSJB.

Heck we could even go back to SSJ3. We know Goku trained in Other World but again there's no on-screen appearance of the first time Goku achieves SSJ3 in the anime through this training.

So basically, it seems that DB has tried to move away from explanations. So I'd like to know how you all would react to getting minimal to no explanation on Goku's new form? For me personally, I would definitely like an explanation on the new form. But I could live without one if the action between Goku and Jiren keeps me occupied.
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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by Duo » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:54 am

"Super Saiyan 2" didn't go by such a title until the next form appeared. Not sure why parts of the fandom are experiencing such anxiety about this.
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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by snpaa » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:14 am

Duo wrote:"Super Saiyan 2" didn't go by such a title until the next form appeared. Not sure why parts of the fandom are experiencing such anxiety about this.
After a while if you keep introducing new forms with no explanation of what it is, what it does and how they were achieved other then the obvious method of anger/tingly back you're going to experience diminishing returns of positive reactions.

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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by MaskedRider » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:38 am

My problem is, how do they even explain it in universe? Sure you can see with your own two eyes things affecting the character that could make it possible but are characters going to actually know what happened? Assuming this transformation has never been done before by any mortal, who is going to know what is exactly happening? When Trunks achieved Ikari, this was a whole new transformation that Goku nor Vegeta seen before so how could they explain it? Even in the next episode preview from when Trunks achieved all Goku can say (granted this is a NEP and not actual dialogue) "Wow Trunks what power!" When Trunks transformed into Ikari all we know is that it was done through anger as Gowasu rhetorically asks, "Is this the power of anger?" and Shin adding a comment that Trunk's energy is expanding. In the google translated Toei episode description it says that Trunks was mutated by anger. There is also context clues such as USSJ poses being used when Trunks powers into Ikari and his muscles expanding into the size of USSJ before compressing but that is my headcanon.

So if there is no explanation I wouldn't be bothered by it because, how is anyone supposed to know? Its even shown that even gods don't know things sometimes, I believe there was a comment in Z by Eldar Kai that he told Shin that he needs to study more :lol: Though it would bother me if they don't release a guide book or something of some sort that comments on Super like the daizenshuus.

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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:28 am

The form will have a name Toei keep teasing it and recently asked on twitter for fans to guess the name, wouldn't do that if it wasn't gonna be named in the special.

It's been about what 25 years since SS debuted and we finally gotten a somewhat explanation for it (tingly back) but still don't know why it makes a Saiyan's hair yellow and eyes green. I think we'll be okay with whatever the explain or lack thereof for Goku's new form will be.

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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by mute_proxy » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:34 am

If there's an official name by Toriyama, there has to be an explanation

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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by Cipher » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:02 am

If a guidebook doesn't land on my doorstep when the episode airs, it's no good.

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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by TekTheNinja » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:53 am

Duo wrote:"Super Saiyan 2" didn't go by such a title until the next form appeared. Not sure why parts of the fandom are experiencing such anxiety about this.
It didn't need any sort of name or explanation at the time since it was pretty clear that it was simply a mastered version of super saiyan. At the time it was just viewed as super saiyan (and technically is just super saiyan).
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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by TheMikado » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:02 am

TekTheNinja wrote:
Duo wrote:"Super Saiyan 2" didn't go by such a title until the next form appeared. Not sure why parts of the fandom are experiencing such anxiety about this.
It didn't need any sort of name or explanation at the time since it was pretty clear that it was simply a mastered version of super saiyan. At the time it was just viewed as super saiyan (and technically is just super saiyan).
Exactly, they actually were referencing as ascended forms. Basically Gohan's was perfected ascended form. We all basically knew what it was because every single saiyan in that arc was striving for the same exact thing abet utilizing different methods. SSJ2 is nothing but the SSJ form, mastered, controlled, and pushed to its present limits. SSJ3 being a mere further extension beyond that.

What's more horrid is the lack of explanation of Kale's form. What it is or why only she has it. Trunks SS Rage was bad, and the SS Rose wasn't very good in terms of understanding what it is or why they have it. But nothing tops the horrible execution of Kale's form. I'm still not convinced this is a real form yet and not merely a "false" transitional form like the A/USSJ and False SSJ forms.

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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:08 am

I feel like our site's mission to document everything in the history of ever and provide as much context and information as possible is shaping everyone's modern expectations into everything I don't like and am disappointed to see in fandom.

I don't need everything explained and justified to me, especially the instant it's first introduced.
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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by TheMikado » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:28 pm

You know what, there are really are two seperate Dragonballs which reflect Toriyama's writing style.

Original Dragonball: In this time period characters had tails, transformations, and animals with human traits just because. It was a fantasy world so much of it did not need to be explained.
Z-era Dragonball: This is the time period where Toriyama began more science fiction rather than fantasy. These are completely different genres and styles for a reason.

As soon as Raditz hit the scene Toriyama set the precedent. Goku had a tail and the ability to become a giant ape for years. However Toriyama applied "science" or at least a reason behind it even if it was fantasy. This ultimately accumulated into "reflections from large celestial bodies produce blutz waves which activate specific glands which reside in a saiyans tail".

We have Cell which was a genetic mutation of multiple alien races and who through absorption of other cybernetic lifeforms was able to achieve a metamorphosis. Cell even had a cocoon state.
Further have Toriyama's specific brand of time travel to which he established "scientific" rules for.. It is obvious this was in the realm of science-fiction in the style and writing.

The Buu arc seems to try to regain some of the "fantasy" and "magic" Toriyama had lost in that time period and the Super series seems to be even more of a return to that style of fantasy writing.
Basically Super is more akin to something like The Hobbit or Harry Potter than say Jurassic Park or Alien. Thus I think this comes down to personal preference and where and what you love about the series and unfortunately there is no way around this.

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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by Chuquita » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:42 pm

It's probably just because I've been a fan since forever, but I don't really care if there's no explanation as long as it's fun to watch. And Gokû's new form looks and sounds fun to watch.

There's plenty of things that bother me about dbs, but this is not one of them.
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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:01 pm

TheMikado wrote: What's more horrid is the lack of explanation of Kale's form. What it is or why only she has it. Trunks SS Rage was bad, and the SS Rose wasn't very good in terms of understanding what it is or why they have it. But nothing tops the horrible execution of Kale's form. I'm still not convinced this is a real form yet and not merely a "false" transitional form like the A/USSJ and False SSJ forms.
Who would explain it when nobody in-universe knows what it is? From the audience's perspective it's pretty obvious what that form is supposed to be, but movies 8 and 10 did not happen in Super's continuity and Kale is the first person known to have it. The only place one could have appeared was the ancient past of U7 and Whis basically ruled that out in the BoG arc when he told Beerus about Goku rediscovering the Super Saiyan transformation after it was forgotten for generations.

What's wrong with keeping it a mystery that can be explored later?

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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:33 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
TheMikado wrote: What's more horrid is the lack of explanation of Kale's form. What it is or why only she has it. Trunks SS Rage was bad, and the SS Rose wasn't very good in terms of understanding what it is or why they have it. But nothing tops the horrible execution of Kale's form. I'm still not convinced this is a real form yet and not merely a "false" transitional form like the A/USSJ and False SSJ forms.
Who would explain it when nobody in-universe knows what it is? From the audience's perspective it's pretty obvious what that form is supposed to be, but movies 8 and 10 did not happen in Super's continuity and Kale is the first person known to have it. The only place one could have appeared was the ancient past of U7 and Whis basically ruled that out in the BoG arc when he told Beerus about Goku rediscovering the Super Saiyan transformation after it was forgotten for generations.

What's wrong with keeping it a mystery that can be explored later?
I don't get issues people have with forms and lack of explaination when all the Saiyan forms aren't explained properly if at all. We haven't still found out why SS makes a Saiyan's hair spikey and yellow and changes their eyes green.
We don't know why SS3 makes long hair and gets rid of eyebrows and changes the eyes even more, we have no idea why SSG makes Goku skinnier, makes hair red, clothes lighter and adds a white trim to his boots, SSGSS we get a description of the form but left in the dark of how the hair colour is blue.

Freeza is the only character I feel who's form really had any explanation, he can make them up and change their colour.

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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:10 pm

If nobody has seen the form or personally experienced it before in-universe, no proper explanation can be given until perhaps some future supplementary material can fill in the blanks.
MaskedRider wrote:My problem is, how do they even explain it in universe? Sure you can see with your own two eyes things affecting the character that could make it possible but are characters going to actually know what happened? Assuming this transformation has never been done before by any mortal, who is going to know what is exactly happening? When Trunks achieved Ikari, this was a whole new transformation that Goku nor Vegeta seen before so how could they explain it? Even in the next episode preview from when Trunks achieved all Goku can say (granted this is a NEP and not actual dialogue) "Wow Trunks what power!" When Trunks transformed into Ikari all we know is that it was done through anger as Gowasu rhetorically asks, "Is this the power of anger?" and Shin adding a comment that Trunk's energy is expanding. In the google translated Toei episode description it says that Trunks was mutated by anger. There is also context clues such as USSJ poses being used when Trunks powers into Ikari and his muscles expanding into the size of USSJ before compressing but that is my headcanon.

So if there is no explanation I wouldn't be bothered by it because, how is anyone supposed to know? Its even shown that even gods don't know things sometimes, I believe there was a comment in Z by Eldar Kai that he told Shin that he needs to study more :lol: Though it would bother me if they don't release a guide book or something of some sort that comments on Super like the daizenshuus.
You make a lot of good points, MaskedRider. I've made several comments in the past (which are no gone because the Dragon Ball Super episode archives threads are now all deleted) about how explanations of certain transformations can't be given in-universe if it's established that nobody has seen such a form or physically experienced it in the past. I think releasing a Dragon Ball Super guidebook (much like the Daizenshuus) could do wonders in filling in some of the blanks. But I have a feeling something like that won't happen for quite a while.

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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:26 pm

I don't think I have ever met someone who questioned why Goku's hair goes yellow and his eyes turn green. We've seen in subsequent transformations that Saiyans' hair color and length change even more than just SS1. That just seems to be a trait of Saiyans. I don't question why the Incredible Hulk's skin turns green and he grows more mass. Bruce Banner could have just stayed the same pigment and had his muscles become really dense. It's a transformation that isn't supposed to make sense and a visual metaphor to represent when he has changed.


The questions that I feel matter more are: "Why did this happen? What is happening here?"


Bruce Banner was mutated by gamma radiation -- not a scientifically accurate and defensible explanation, but at least we have one and we suspend our disbelief.

For forms like Super Saiyan Rage and Super Saiyan Berserker, we don't know exactly if the two are related. It would make sense if they are, and, considering Whis seems to know a lot, he could help. Is SSRage the true version of SS3, or is it related to SS1 Ultra? These are questions that could be answered with a quick comment by Whis, which no one would bother to debate.

I don't agree with people here saying that Kanzenshuu or the internet age have made the fans care more about explanations and immediacy. It is a component of good storytelling to let the audience know what is happening when an unexpected moment occurs, and this can be from a narrator or even a wise character. We should not have to fish through the manga to learn SSRosé is Goku Black's version of SSBlue when that information could have been better stated in the anime.

I don't care what the form looks like, or even if Goku gets a new form. Either way is perfectly fine with me. I do, however, expect and prioritize an explanation behind things happening.

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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:41 pm

ChiefWamsutta wrote:These are questions that could be answered with a quick comment by Whis, which no one would bother to debate.
I would. Why would Whis be so invested in and knowledgeable about Saiyan transformations from another universe?

I don't want Whis to be the all-knowing exposition character.
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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by caiojoorge » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:46 pm

ChiefWamsutta wrote:I don't care what the form looks like, or even if Goku gets a new form. Either way is perfectly fine with me. I do, however, expect and prioritize an explanation behind things happening.
This.

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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:53 pm

VegettoEX wrote: I would. Why would Whis be so invested in and knowledgeable about Saiyan transformations from another universe?

I don't want Whis to be the all-knowing exposition character.
Especially when he was shown to have limited knowledge of the Super Saiyan transformations in his own universe. He didn't know what Super Saiyan God was and doubted it wasn't something Beerus had just dreamed up.

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Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by TheMikado » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:00 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:
TheMikado wrote: What's more horrid is the lack of explanation of Kale's form. What it is or why only she has it. Trunks SS Rage was bad, and the SS Rose wasn't very good in terms of understanding what it is or why they have it. But nothing tops the horrible execution of Kale's form. I'm still not convinced this is a real form yet and not merely a "false" transitional form like the A/USSJ and False SSJ forms.
Who would explain it when nobody in-universe knows what it is? From the audience's perspective it's pretty obvious what that form is supposed to be, but movies 8 and 10 did not happen in Super's continuity and Kale is the first person known to have it. The only place one could have appeared was the ancient past of U7 and Whis basically ruled that out in the BoG arc when he told Beerus about Goku rediscovering the Super Saiyan transformation after it was forgotten for generations.

What's wrong with keeping it a mystery that can be explored later?
I don't get issues people have with forms and lack of explaination when all the Saiyan forms aren't explained properly if at all. We haven't still found out why SS makes a Saiyan's hair spikey and yellow and changes their eyes green.
We don't know why SS3 makes long hair and gets rid of eyebrows and changes the eyes even more, we have no idea why SSG makes Goku skinnier, makes hair red, clothes lighter and adds a white trim to his boots, SSGSS we get a description of the form but left in the dark of how the hair colour is blue.

Freeza is the only character I feel who's form really had any explanation, he can make them up and change their colour.
No you are talking about aesthetics which is completely and totally different.

No one cares, that Goku turns into a Ape, rather than a fish, or lemur or whatever. No one cares what aura color characters use. No one cares that SSJ goes yellow, or that Frieza goes White as part of the transformation. People accept it as PART OF THE TRANSFORMATION.

The problem is that we don't understand what some things are actually happening. Why someone is able to transform, what it grants them, etc.

example. SSJ Rose can be SSJ rose and that's perfectly fine. What people want to know is WHY is it SSJ rose when using Goku's body. The manga made it clear. When using the equivalent of SSBSS with Zamasu's God ki it turns Pink. Fine. The anime didn't explain if it was the SSJ or SSBSS equivalent which is what the problem was.

No one cares the Trunks has a blue God aura. The problem is that we know that is typically God ki and we want to know how and why he got it.

SSG is a perfect example. I may not aesthetically like the form but it is well explained. I may not even like the reasoning, but I do know that when 6 good hearted saiyans get together they should be able to produce a SSG who has pink hair and slim looking body.

That's what people want. We know what SSJ3 is, its and extension of SSJ1/2 pushed beyond their perceived limits. Do we know HOW Goku got it or Why? Not really but it was explained away as something he discovered from training in otherworld. So we are least how an idea of when and how it was obtained.

People aren't asking for every detail. They are asking for similar attention to detail as Z era, but they are getting Original DB level explanations on transformations which may not sit well with some fans in a post DBZ world.

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