What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
TheMikado
I Live Here
Posts: 4872
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by TheMikado » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:03 am

Duo wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Duo wrote:
1) New transformation has had build-up.
2) No there was not. The only explanation was GOHAN MAD. Much later it was shown that it was an actual evolution of Super Saiyan that Goku/Vegeta/Trunks can do as well. Super Saiyan God is by far the most "explained" transformation to appear in the series as written by Akira Toriyama.
OMG it's like people have never watched Dragon Ball at all!!

Gohan's MASSIVE potential has been teased since Raditz had him crying in a space pod on Earth. Toriyama literally took YEARS before Gohan's potential was fully realized, and even then his potential alone still didn't make him a powerhouse because he didn't commit himself to training and fighting like Goku or Vegeta.

That's how a transformation should be properly executed. Lots or foreshadowing where if you go back you can see the breadcrumbs and trail left by the author to show how a character achieved this journey. We can see exactly all the crap Gohan went through to get to SSJ2 despite his crazy potential. I took years of training, getting beat up, people dying right in front of his eyes before he was able to manifest it into SSJ2. By contrast Caulifa does a back tingle and boom SSJ1, plus she somehow accidentals pops SSJ2 and doesn't realize or know how...

I'm actually tired of this same argument. If people can't see the narrative and literary quality in something like Gohan's journey to SSJ2 vs Caulifa or Kale or SSJ Rage, then they probably never will and only see whatever it is they want to see.
I'm sorry that you completely missed my point. Gohan's character and "Super Saiyan 2" became separate matters as soon as other characters were doing it. I agree with that being probably the best transformation in the series, but it has nothing to do with Super Saiyan 2 itself. Gohan is interesting because of Gohan, not because SO STRONG NEW FORM.

Ultra Instinct is actually more interesting than God or Blue because it is based on Goku as a character, rather than a certain type of Ki or being a Saiyan or whatever.
Yeah I don't think I missed anything, you just may have forgotten your point so I'll just remind you using your own words
No there was not. The only explanation was GOHAN MAD. Much later it was shown that it was an actual evolution of Super Saiyan that Goku/Vegeta/Trunks can do as well.
This was just plain wrong. They literally spend the majority of the Cell arch trying to "push beyond SSJ"! Future Trunks even says the exact wording when he spars with Goku in Super and describes SSJ2. "A Saiyan who has pushed beyond the limits of Super Saiyan" This was its description before it had a name, before they had even achieved the form. Toriyama explained both what the form is and why Gohan was the one to achieve it. Gohan had years of potential foreshadowing and an entire arc of foreshadowing a level beyond SSJ.

Toriyama combined this two aspects which had been foreshadowing into a single concept. Gohan, through training and triggering event, pushed beyond the limits of SSJ due to the potential he has exhibited nearly all of his life. Nothing else thus far has come close to this level of and length of time of foreshadowing and then combining these foreshadowed concept... geez come on..

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by sintzu » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:10 am

That didn't seem like a new form but just Goku being able to master what Whis was teaching him. I don't see why he won't be able to do that using any of his Ssj forms. If he's going to beat Jerin then we might see that with SsjB.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
TheMikado
I Live Here
Posts: 4872
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by TheMikado » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:18 am

sintzu wrote:That didn't seem like a new form but just Goku being able to master what Whis was teaching him. I don't see why he won't be able to do that using any of his Ssj forms. If he's going to beat Jerin then we might see that with SsjB.
I totally agree with this and don't think it will be portrayed the same way in the manga. Just my prediction. I do think Goku will initially utilize this with his SSJ forms but eventually not need them as he is able to draw out their power without transforming. I also don't think this "form"/technique is supposed to make him dramatically stronger either.

User avatar
TheMikado
I Live Here
Posts: 4872
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by TheMikado » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:24 am

Super_Divine_Genki wrote:Well, for those analytical minds that are all-needy for full explanations for whatever big event has happened in Super, or DB in general, I think that Episode #110 went way out of its way to give us most/all of the details. I mean, if a near FIVE MINUTE explanation/hypothesizing didn't clue someone in, then...

... :P

"No! That Black Hole doesn't make ANY sense! :x" , or "I don't understand what happened to Goku... ? :think:" These types of comments need not be applied here.

Yeah, it's well known that DBS glosses over a lot of things which is one area (of a few) that has hurt the series, but I think that it did very well here, especially by Super's standards. It even provided a name for what Goku temporarily attained... :/
Asura wrote:I believe the black hole was created because of two incredibly powerful forces pushing against each other and pushing the spirit bomb back and forth caused all that energy to collapse and a black hole was formed.
Right here

No this only makes sense if you just accept that saiyans have random transformations.

The lore we have is that Saiyans only possess 3 real transformations.

SSJ
Oozaru
SSG which was recently added to the list.

All the other forms are either extensions of the existing base transformations or amalgamation of the different transformations i.e. SSJ4& SSB.

This is a completely new branch and as such warrants a completely new explanation. Right now we are all debating whether its a "form" or a "technique" so it's kinda in a weird place right now.
I hope when Goku is trying to recuperate he explains a bit about what's happening and I do think we will get that from him when he is around Caulifa and Kale so no need to jump to crazy conclusions yet. I think we will get an explanation, but the explanation won't match what we are seeing in terms of its implementation.

User avatar
BlueBasilisk
I Live Here
Posts: 3061
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:58 am

Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:00 am

My impression after watching the episode again is that the form and Ultra Instinct aren't the same thing, but rather that having his limits broken and being powered up somehow enabled Goku to utilize that ability. Whis and the other gods are familiar with the state but they don't immediately recognize what's going on with Goku. They only start figuring it out by observing his unusual movements and reactions. To me that indicates that the form isn't part of the ability but is something else that's happening along side it. There's also the mystery of why Goku is emitting so much heat. Even Whis was puzzled by that.

There are two things I could see happening here; this form is somehow incomplete or is just a prelude to a more perfected form/state, and if it is I could see it being written that Goku can only use Ultra Instinct while powered up to prevent him from becoming totally broken. It sounds like the next episode may show us whether or not he can still use those techniques in his normal form.

User avatar
Super_Divine_Genki
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:19 am

Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by Super_Divine_Genki » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:51 am

TheMikado wrote:This is a completely new branch and as such warrants a completely new explanation. Right now we are all debating whether its a "form" or a "technique" so it's kinda in a weird place right now.
I hope when Goku is trying to recuperate he explains a bit about what's happening and I do think we will get that from him when he is around Caulifa and Kale so no need to jump to crazy conclusions yet. I think we will get an explanation, but the explanation won't match what we are seeing in terms of its implementation.
I hear ya. I was just saying that it doesn't need to be picked apart so much - negatively anyway (I say that in the context of general Kanzenshuu history). Over-analyzing DB may take a lot of the enjoyment out of the experience. Or, maybe it adds to the enjoyment for some... ? I just enjoy what turned out to be a really cool Goku/DB/Super moment.

But... you're all free to do the math. :)

GodKaio-Ken
I Live Here
Posts: 2326
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:00 pm

Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:51 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:My impression after watching the episode again is that the form and Ultra Instinct aren't the same thing, but rather that having his limits broken and being powered up somehow enabled Goku to utilize that ability. Whis and the other gods are familiar with the state but they don't immediately recognize what's going on with Goku. They only start figuring it out by observing his unusual movements and reactions. To me that indicates that the form isn't part of the ability but is something else that's happening along side it. There's also the mystery of why Goku is emitting so much heat. Even Whis was puzzled by that.

There are two things I could see happening here; this form is somehow incomplete or is just a prelude to a more perfected form/state, and if it is I could see it being written that Goku can only use Ultra Instinct while powered up to prevent him from becoming totally broken. It sounds like the next episode may show us whether or not he can still use those techniques in his normal form.

I also see them as separate, though they may not be. Moving without thinking shouldnt make your eyes Grey or your Aura go crazy. It should make you a lot faster....but thats about it.

I think Goku achieved a mew form and while in that form was able to use UI.

However I can see why others feel the opposite too.
Currently watching: My Hero Academia

Last watched: Akame Ga Kill, Hokuto No Ken, Hokuto No Ken 2, Hunter X Hunter

Quote if I were to Hakai someone: "Omae Wa Mou Shindeiru. Hakai!"

User avatar
Duo
I Live Here
Posts: 3213
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:14 pm
Location: West Michigan
Contact:

Re: What If There's No Explanation For Goku's New Form?

Post by Duo » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:58 pm

TheMikado wrote:
This was just plain wrong. They literally spend the majority of the Cell arch trying to "push beyond SSJ"! Future Trunks even says the exact wording when he spars with Goku in Super and describes SSJ2. "A Saiyan who has pushed beyond the limits of Super Saiyan" This was its description before it had a name, before they had even achieved the form. Toriyama explained both what the form is and why Gohan was the one to achieve it. Gohan had years of potential foreshadowing and an entire arc of foreshadowing a level beyond SSJ.

Toriyama combined this two aspects which had been foreshadowing into a single concept. Gohan, through training and triggering event, pushed beyond the limits of SSJ due to the potential he has exhibited nearly all of his life. Nothing else thus far has come close to this level of and length of time of foreshadowing and then combining these foreshadowed concept... geez come on..
All I took out of this is that you're both incapable of comprehending my posts and also too rude to maintain a conversation. If I was wrong about anything, it was even making an attempt to clarify. Sorry that Dragon Ball stresses you out too much to be civil.
Ajay is a skank

Post Reply