Opinions on Jiren?

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by BrolyKale » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:40 am

^I feel the same way. Its easy to say "He's another muscle-man" when we don't have too much info about him. Yes, he is strong but I'm sure there's much about him, at least we know that he wants to make a wish. Also, it'd be nice to know how he became that strong too... this character is mysterious and that's what I like about him. Design wise he is simple but most of the characters are simple in DBS.
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Re: Opinions on jiren?

Post by Simere » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:47 am

I hope it's revealed later that he was just bluffing and actually needed some time to recuperate. Giving your enemy a respite out of unadulterated arrogance is unforgivably stupid. Key word unadulterated. If he wanted to give them a chance to come back stronger, or if he took pleasure in prolonging their torment — that kind of stuff would be fine by me.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by Michsi » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:56 am

Honestly, that whole "Yawn, there are no more worthy opponents for me. Good night!" -bit made me roll my eyes a bit. It'd be funny if he did it simply to ruffle Goku's feathers, and they were ruffled, but I'm sure this was just another way to show how badass and cool he is. Well, either that, or they didn't know what to do with him and decided to write him out of the story for a few episodes this way.

This is basically the King Piccolo saga formula. Goku faces the main antagonist the first time, loses, gets a power up, faces the antagonist again, performs better and probably wins. But that this all happens in the span of 20 minutes is a little aggravating.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by BrolyKale » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:09 am

This is basically the King Piccolo saga formula. Goku faces the main antagonist the first time, loses, gets a power up, faces the antagonist again, performs better and probably wins. But that this all happens in the span of 20 minutes is a little aggravating.
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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by Michsi » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:16 am

BrolyKale wrote:
This is basically the King Piccolo saga formula. Goku faces the main antagonist the first time, loses, gets a power up, faces the antagonist again, performs better and probably wins. But that this all happens in the span of 20 minutes is a little aggravating.
That's Dragon Ball for you. It was like that since the beginning.
Not really though. I also thought this formula has been used a lot more throughout DB, but with the exception of King Piccolo, I could only come up with Tao Pai Pai (maybe even Yamcha, but that was really power up he got that time). Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, Buu - he only had one fight with each and that was at the end of the saga.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by SonReggie » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:23 am

BrolyKale wrote:^I feel the same way. Its easy to say "He's another muscle-man" when we don't have too much info about him. Yes, he is strong but I'm sure there's much about him, at least we know that he wants to make a wish. Also, it'd be nice to know how he became that strong too... this character is mysterious and that's what I like about him. Design wise he is simple but most of the characters are simple in DBS.
As said in an earlier post:

Am willing to wager that he was quite strong in the first place and Belmond has transferred his power to Jiren. This could go some way toward explaining Jiren being so OP and being able to use Ultra Instinct (or something similar to it). Belmond also seems confident to the point of being absolutely convinced Jiren can't lose.

And Belmond wants to retire* so.....

*and yes, I know it was indicated that he'd chosen Toppo as a successor, but that could easily be a tactic to throw everyone off the scent.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by Cipher » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:42 am

Michsi wrote:Not really though. I also thought this formula has been used a lot more throughout DB, but with the exception of King Piccolo, I could only come up with Tao Pai Pai (maybe even Yamcha, but that was really power up he got that time). Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, Buu - he only had one fight with each and that was at the end of the saga.
He fought Boo twice, actually, though quit in an unconventional way the first time and won in an unconventional way the second.

So, yes, the formula of "lose once, come back stronger and win" isn't actually all that played out in Dragon Ball. But I think it's such a predictable structure to begin with that even three times can feel like too much.

I'm expecting something a little weirder to happen, since there are a lot of balls in the air, but we'll see. Toriyama hasn't allowed a cliched climax in the new material yet.

On topic: As of episode 111, I think Jiren is the most effective antagonist, in terms of introducing tension into the story, of any of the new material so far. They're really selling the difference between him and the other competitors in a way the series hasn't sold me on a power gap since the original run. I am genuinely excited to see what the threat of Jiren forces the other entrants to do. Dragon Ball became substantially more fun last week.

Jiren and Freeza are really doing their damnedest to save this arc.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by Michsi » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:53 am

Cipher wrote: He fought Boo twice, actually, though quit in an unconventional way the first time and won in an unconventional way the second.

So, yes, the formula of "lose once, come back stronger and win" isn't actually all that played out in Dragon Ball. But I think it's such a predictable structure to begin with that even three times can feel like too much.

I'm expecting something a little weirder to happen, since there are a lot of balls in the air, but we'll see. Toriyama hasn't allowed a cliched climax in the new material yet.

On topic: As of episode 111, I think Jiren is the most effective antagonist, in terms of introducing tension into the story, of any of the new material so far. They're really selling the difference between him and the other competitors in a way the series hasn't sold me on a power gap since the original run. I am genuinely excited to see what the threat of Jiren forces the other entrants to do. Dragon Ball became substantially more fun last week.

Jiren and Freeza are really doing their damnedest to save this arc.
I didn't forget about Buu, but Goku didn't really lose against him then, and wasn't it later confirmed he might have even been able to beat him? He just thought the new generation should do it? Anyway, I considered the situation different enough to not count it.

I wish they would've found another way to put Jiren on hold until Goku's return and hope you're right that something unpredictable might happen. As fun as the fight in the special was, it hasn't left me wanting Jiren vs. Goku v2. Jiren is a force to be reckoned with, that's for sure, but watching him is just not....fun.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by Toonami1998 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:46 am

Jiren is ridiculously strong, so strong that time itself has no effect. Hit was getting outclassed until he used his trump card technique, but I think its absurd that Jiren didn't know shit about time skip until he faced it and was like oh this is it? Oh thats cute, boom pow no effect ggnobbq Hit lulz. But yea, it did annoy me that Jiren afterward sat there with his energy shield up waiting for a worthy opponent? Like aren't you suppose to be winning this thing so you don't get erased? Lol, I think he has to reserve and boost his power back up, after what he put out, theres no way he didn't use up some energy in those two efforts of destroying both Goku and Hit.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by Asura » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:16 pm

Seems like he showed slightly more personality in the fight vs Hit, or at least his mouth moved a lot more than it did in the special. Didn't really say anything different than before though, just more cockiness.

The fact that he now "transcends time" or whatever the hell that even means, is absolutely ridiculous and I'm beginning to wonder if we've gone too far with how powerful these characters are becoming that even concepts like time do not apply to them anymore.

Once again though Jiren's sole redeemable trait is his strength, there's still nothing else to him. So to the people saying that we have to wait before giving him judgement and it's not fair to judge him before we know more about him, this arc has been running for 35 episodes and we still know absolutely nothing about the main antagonist of the arc, nor has he conveyed any real personality yet, only now showing more verbal cockiness.

We'll obviously get more background on Jiren later, but we're 35 episodes in, some of this stuff should have been presented to us already, and that is the problem with this character. It's hard to get invested to him when the show wants to tell us or show us nothing about him except how strong he is.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by TheMikado » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:24 pm

Asura wrote:Seems like he showed slightly more personality in the fight vs Hit, or at least his mouth moved a lot more than it did in the special. Didn't really say anything different than before though, just more cockiness.

The fact that he now "transcends time" or whatever the hell that even means, is absolutely ridiculous and I'm beginning to wonder if we've gone too far with how powerful these characters are becoming that even concepts like time do not apply to them anymore.

Once again though Jiren's sole redeemable trait is his strength, there's still nothing else to him. So to the people saying that we have to wait before giving him judgement and it's not fair to judge him before we know more about him, this arc has been running for 35 episodes and we still know absolutely nothing about the main antagonist of the arc, nor has he conveyed any real personality yet, only now showing more verbal cockiness.

We'll obviously get more background on Jiren later, but we're 35 episodes in, some of this stuff should have been presented to us already, and that is the problem with this character. It's hard to get invested to him when the show wants to tell us or show us nothing about him except how strong he is.
Wait this is the straw that broke the camels??? They literally have Goku a “God” form, threatened to “punch” the universe out of existence, already surpassed time skips and temporal pocket dimension but suddenly making themselves 10x stronger than a Super Saiyan GOD Super Saiyan while doing this all in the span of a few months and NOW you want to complain that it’s gotteb ridiculous?? The thing about Super is that is was already on this track from the very beginning! When you characters are punching the universe out of existence in the VERY FIRST ARC, realistically where else did you think this could possibly go?

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:56 pm

BrolyKale wrote:...Hit is interesting because he is an assassin? ok... what makes Toppo more interesting than Jiren? they are the same... Toppo just talks a little bit more but that's it. At least Jiren wants to make a wish, he has a motivation, Toppo? nothing... he is just there to fight alongside Jiren.
Yeah...Hit is not an assassin. He's THE assassin. The legendary assassin of U6 who has lived for 1000+ years, can manipulate time, distort dimensions, and fights for contracts. He had a motivation at one point to obtain a tool by the gods to traverse all the universes and likely expand his business. There's a lot to work with here. His occupation alone makes him interesting.

Toppo is nothing like Jiren. In fact, they seem like polar opposites. Toppo is flamboyant with the justice thing. Admittingly, they've really dropped the ball with this character. He could have been something more like All Might from My Hero Academia. Toppo has no motivation? Ummm... he's probably the fighter that wants to protect his universe the most. He made this clear to Goku from the start. Jiren's motivation hasn't been revealed yet, and his wish can't be so important that he's willing to sit down and meditate cause he's bored.
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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:01 pm

Asura wrote:Seems like he showed slightly more personality in the fight vs Hit, or at least his mouth moved a lot more than it did in the special. Didn't really say anything different than before though, just more cockiness.

The fact that he now "transcends time" or whatever the hell that even means, is absolutely ridiculous and I'm beginning to wonder if we've gone too far with how powerful these characters are becoming that even concepts like time do not apply to them anymore.

Once again though Jiren's sole redeemable trait is his strength, there's still nothing else to him. So to the people saying that we have to wait before giving him judgement and it's not fair to judge him before we know more about him, this arc has been running for 35 episodes and we still know absolutely nothing about the main antagonist of the arc, nor has he conveyed any real personality yet, only now showing more verbal cockiness.

We'll obviously get more background on Jiren later, but we're 35 episodes in, some of this stuff should have been presented to us already, and that is the problem with this character. It's hard to get invested to him when the show wants to tell us or show us nothing about him except how strong he is.
That's the thing though Jiren isn't the main antagonist of the arc, he's the biggest threat in the ToP and that's it. The main antagonists of the arc have to be Zen-Oh's as they were the one's who pitted 8 universes against one another for their survival. The same way Hit was not the main antagonist in the U6 arc, it was Champa and Beerus as they were the one's to have pitted their universes against each other over a petty squable, Hit was simply the biggest threat from U6 and hence why Goku and Hit threw their match.

If Jiren had been the one to conduct and organize the tournament then you'd have a point. Jiren is currently no different to all the other universes that oppose U7, they're all in the same boat. The ToP obviously needs that one big threat, the thing that one universe needs to overcome to survive and in this case it is a being from U11 called Jiren.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by BWri » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:06 pm

After episode 111 I'm actually starting to like Jiren and the role he plays. I think he played off of Hit, who I'm also becoming more fond of, really well. Only thing that really annoyed me was the whole Power > Time bullshit that all the gods were peddling in this episode. His lack of personality is, well, a personality trait all its own. I guess what I mean to say is I've accepted him for what he is.
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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by SansrivaaL » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:16 pm

Jiren's pissing me off in more ways than one now, I didnt mind him stepping on Goku on ep 109 that much but ep 111 kicked it up a notch, the bastard just said Hit's assassin pride is crap, looked Goku in the eyes and belittled him, this is really something quite new to me...I mean ever since King Piccolo, almost every main antagonist was fixed on fighting Goku. Roshi,Tien,Piccolo,Vegeta,Freeza,Androids,Cell,Boo,Beerus,Hit and Zamasu, tho not all of them were that fixed on him from the start but views him as someone worth fighting when they started giving those hands and they enjoyed fighting him, but this dude Jiren was outright fucking disrespectful, I'm starting to see what they're trying to do with him now, they want viewers to hate his gray ass. I.Am.So.Damn.Pissed.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:28 pm

I'm starting to wonder if MVP will just be chosen by the team who wins and not Zeno.
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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by BrolyKale » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:45 pm

Toppo has no motivation? Ummm... he's probably the fighter that wants to protect his universe the most.
Yeah, like most of the fighters in the TOP... no one wants to get erased.
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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by Jigurashi » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:16 pm

I love Goku, but I lol'd hard at that scene. I like Jiren more now for not giving a single fuck about Goku despite fighting him already. Usually a rival or enemy of Goku's would have some interest in him by this point, but Jiren just doesn't have a fuck to give about Goku and makes it a point that Goku knows that. A savage moment by Jiren, and a great character moment by Goku seeing him feel so insulted.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by Asura » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:12 pm

TheMikado wrote:Wait this is the straw that broke the camels??? They literally have Goku a “God” form, threatened to “punch” the universe out of existence, already surpassed time skips and temporal pocket dimension but suddenly making themselves 10x stronger than a Super Saiyan GOD Super Saiyan while doing this all in the span of a few months and NOW you want to complain that it’s gotteb ridiculous?? The thing about Super is that is was already on this track from the very beginning! When you characters are punching the universe out of existence in the VERY FIRST ARC, realistically where else did you think this could possibly go?
I never said this was the straw that broke the camel's back, I'm just saying Super keeps getting more and more ridiculous with how powerful all of these characters are getting especially when compared to Z.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:That's the thing though Jiren isn't the main antagonist of the arc, he's the biggest threat in the ToP and that's it. The main antagonists of the arc have to be Zen-Oh's as they were the one's who pitted 8 universes against one another for their survival. The same way Hit was not the main antagonist in the U6 arc, it was Champa and Beerus as they were the one's to have pitted their universes against each other over a petty squable, Hit was simply the biggest threat from U6 and hence why Goku and Hit threw their match.

If Jiren had been the one to conduct and organize the tournament then you'd have a point. Jiren is currently no different to all the other universes that oppose U7, they're all in the same boat. The ToP obviously needs that one big threat, the thing that one universe needs to overcome to survive and in this case it is a being from U11 called Jiren.
I've said this before, but antagonist does not mean evil person. Hit IS the main antagonist of the U6 arc. Jiren IS the main antagonist of this arc. They are the opposing force to our protagonists, hence they are the antagonists. They're the main "enemies" of their respective arc. It doesn't mean they're evil people or that they're villains, they're just the antagonists.


The Zenos and Champa are not the main antagonists, they're just the catalysts for the events that follow.

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Re: Opinions on Jiren?

Post by gofishus » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:14 pm

Asura wrote:Seems like he showed slightly more personality in the fight vs Hit, or at least his mouth moved a lot more than it did in the special. Didn't really say anything different than before though, just more cockiness.

The fact that he now "transcends time" or whatever the hell that even means, is absolutely ridiculous and I'm beginning to wonder if we've gone too far with how powerful these characters are becoming that even concepts like time do not apply to them anymore.

Once again though Jiren's sole redeemable trait is his strength, there's still nothing else to him. So to the people saying that we have to wait before giving him judgement and it's not fair to judge him before we know more about him, this arc has been running for 35 episodes and we still know absolutely nothing about the main antagonist of the arc, nor has he conveyed any real personality yet, only now showing more verbal cockiness.

We'll obviously get more background on Jiren later, but we're 35 episodes in, some of this stuff should have been presented to us already, and that is the problem with this character. It's hard to get invested to him when the show wants to tell us or show us nothing about him except how strong he is.
Yup.. whatever power SSJ4 Gogeta and Omega Shenron had.. it's pretty clear now that they pale in comparison to this beast Jiren.

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