Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2006
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:33 am

So, with the release of episodes 109 and 110 of Dragon Ball Super, we have our first look at this all new power that's never been seen before.......... Or has it?

The Crunchyroll subs refer to it as "Ultra Instinct", whilst pure Japanese translation roughly puts it as "Master of Self-Improvement" or "Secret of Selfishness" and seems to be inspired by the Mushin style of martial arts. For the purposes of this thread and my own comments elsewhere, I shall henceforth be referring to this state/technique as "Ultra Instinct" from this point forward until we get an official OFFICIAL name.

So what is it, exactly? As early as Resurrection of F, the movie AND the arc, we have Whis training Goku and Vegeta. He tells the two of them that his body can react and move without any input from his mind, allowing him to fight much more effectively. Even Beerus hasn't mastered this technique. As of the latest two episodes of the current anime, it seems that the Gods of Destruction as a whole haven't learned how to use the Ultra Instinct that well. They're extremely shocked to see that a mortal like Goku has managed to use it so effectively, and Goku himself seems to fight and act much more differently when using the Ultra Instinct, being able to effortlessly predict and counter blows. So, to summarize, the Ultra Instinct, in its purest sense, is the ability to reflexively fight without having to think about your actions.

But what if there's more? The Gods of Destruction seem to greatly fear this state of being, despite it seeming to only be a way of fighting more skillfully. What makes it so special, then? That's where I think the Angels come in.

It's implied that Angels as a whole are simply stronger than the Gods of Destruction they attend to. If that's the case, why is it then that only these Gods of Destruction are ever played up for their power to destroy universes? This is where my own speculation on this matter comes into play.

Although Whis is the only one explicitly said to be able to truly use the Ultra Instinct, let's say that his Angel siblings aren't that different in that regard. Maybe the reason the Ultra Instinct is so feared is that it serves as a literal power to even the playing field. Maybe Angels don't need to really have high power levels in the traditional sense that this franchise has often espoused in order to be better fighters than even their Gods of Destruction. It's possible that the Ultra Instinct fine-tunes one's ability to fight so well that, no matter their power level, they can skillfully dance around other martial artists and focus their energies so that they'll always be able to dodge, block, or hurt their opponents.

The next part of my thinking is that Gods of Destruction need to have a traditionally high power level combined with a little bit of training in the art of the Ultra Instinct in order to be as fearsome as they are. Thus, this is the reason why fighters like Toppo and SSB Vegeta in the manga are considered potential candidates for the position: they've reached a high enough level on their own that, with a little bit of Ultra Instinct training, they can become good enough fighters to suit the position of God of Destruction. And now, with Goku, we see that briefly mastering the Ultra Instinct allows him to fight toe-to-toe with Jiren, a mortal whose power may possibly eclipse even a God of Destruction.

So, that's all my two cents on the matter. Feel free to add your own thoughts, criticisms, points, etc. This is just to stir up discussion on the matter and have some fun doing so.

User avatar
TheMikado
I Live Here
Posts: 4866
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by TheMikado » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:46 am

I was about to post something like this.

Number I want to give my thoughts on this. I REALLY REALLY REALLY like the concept of the technique. I'm even ok with it granting a "form" with an aura and such similar to kaioken.

What I don't like is the nonsensical way we got to a perfected technique and further that it seems to grant abilities that do not seem to fit with the definition of the technique. For example we know that kaioken is a technique that multiplies the speed and strength of the user, but then it somehow ends up granting healing abilities too without explanation of that being an aspect of the technique.

Anyway I'm just going to post what I said in the manga thread:

In the manga Beerus utilizes the technique but it doesn't grant any new form or aura and it's not perfect.
I'm not entirely convinced that its actually supposed to grant a new form or whether this is something Toei invented to go along with the technique.
We have actually already seen it in action in the manga and it doesn't look like anything special and is executed exactly like how we would imagine logically.

I'm actually hoping the manga is more grounded in technique using Kuzushi
Kuzushi (the art of breaking balance) is also used in jujutsu, where the opponent's attack is deflected using their momentum against them in order to arrest their movements then throw them or pin them with a technique— thus controlling the opponent.

It's going to make a ton more sense if Goku is able to beat Jiren but using Jiren's own power against him and would give Goku a purely defensive technique. It would be awesome for Goku to have something like that in his arsenal where its only useful if he is actually attacked and as others have pointed out it would be a way to fight Beerus based on skill without actually surpassing him powerwise.

I was actually hoping the "Move without thinking" would generate fights closer to "IP Man"

This is how I feel Goku's new technique should have played out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y04SKwZNjME

Ironically I was hoping Roshi would be using similar fighting techniques he used in the Tree of Might movie where he was able to hold his own against more powerful opponents due to his fighting instinct and skill and him being purely defensive in those fights. I was hoping to get similar in the ToP but that's not what happened.. :(

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2006
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:01 am

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Personally, I actually like how the Ultra Instinct incorporates aspects of the high octane supernatural fights of DBZ with the martial arts roots and style of DB old. Given that this is a series where fighters train their bodies and minds to put out energy that they use to strengthen themselves and create planet-destroying balls of energy, I'm okay with a state of being that says "f**k that, we're fighting mano-a-mano!".

It also means we don't have to worry about destroying the universe or possessing the power to do so, because the Ultra Instinct is explicitly not about putting out power but about controlling the situation. I like to think that it's a lot more like Wuxia-style martial arts forcing its way into power-level-dominated DB and deciding that this sh*t has to go :lol:

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2006
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:08 am

So, an interesting tidbit I just thought about.

In the early days of this arc during the speculation on Goku's new power with the first poster reveal, some folks were theorizing that this new power was something that wasn't Saiyan-exclusive and could be unlocked by anyone from team Universe 7.

Technically speaking....... those people weren't wrong. The Ultra Instinct is indeed a power that isn't exclusive to Saiyans and could potentially be achieved by anyone if the circumstances are right.

User avatar
MagmonKai
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 813
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:32 pm

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by MagmonKai » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:59 pm

I was under the impression that Goku has a new form, and in the form he has a power boost, and the ability to move without thinking "Instinct" not that this technique is the new form.

User avatar
Lord Frieza
I Live Here
Posts: 3698
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:36 pm

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:09 pm

Going over the sub it seems that Goku's new form is indeed a limit break of sourts.

As Whis described it the combinastion of the Genki Dama's implostion/explostion, Goku's attapts to resist it plus the fact he was also absorbing the energy combined to push Goku beyond his limits. As a side effect of this "Limit Break" Goku was finally able to overcome whatever mental/physical/spiritual limitastion was stopping him from mastering "Ultra Instinct".

So his new power and the Ultran Instinct are the result of the Limit Break but they are to seperat outcomes of the form. Goku is not super powerful because of the Ultra Instinct alone. Or at least thats what how I can interprit it at the moment.

User avatar
Big Black Sayian
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 457
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 9:35 am
Location: New Jersey, USA

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by Big Black Sayian » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:23 pm

MagmonKai wrote:I was under the impression that Goku has a new form, and in the form he has a power boost, and the ability to move without thinking "Instinct" not that this technique is the new form.
I some ways new forms are new techniques

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2006
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:38 pm

Big Black Saiyan wrote:
MagmonKai wrote:I was under the impression that Goku has a new form, and in the form he has a power boost, and the ability to move without thinking "Instinct" not that this technique is the new form.
I some ways new forms are new techniques
Kaio-ken is one such technique, as as Ultimate.

They aren't transformations in the traditional sense in that Goku and Gohan don't actually physically transform their bodies, they just access their reserves of hidden power.

I liken the Ultra Instinct to Kaio-ken, in that its a technique that improves one's ability to fight beyond any kind of normal power-boost. The episode stated that absorbing some of the Genkidama only played a part in restoring some energy to Goku to allow him to keep fighting. Everything else was attributed to the Ultra Instinct itself, something even Gods of Destruction fear despite its seeming simplicity.

User avatar
Big Black Sayian
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 457
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 9:35 am
Location: New Jersey, USA

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by Big Black Sayian » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:41 pm

You know I actually predicted that Ultra Instinct would have nothing to do with SS/Sayians. Surprisingly that's the case. Wonder if Goku combine it with SSB

HEDGESMFG
Newbie
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:20 pm

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by HEDGESMFG » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:57 pm

So here's my take, based on both the information presented to us and the visuals we witnessed. This is a theory, but it seems to me to be the most logical.

So, how was this form achieved, and what is it?

Ultra Instict is both a technique and a transformation. It is both achieved by absorbing a massive amount of raw energy, and by creating a stress on the body so great that you 'must' unlock this latent potential to survive. This was only possible because both things happened to come together simultaneously.

So, how did Goku achieve this form? Completely by accident, effectively.

What did we see happen to the genkidama in the episode? It collapsed in on itself and sucked Goku into it, effectively using the massive amount of energy within (combined with some matter of some kind if we're at least attempting to base this off something science-y) to create a literal miniature black hole singularity. A literal miniature black hole, the single greatest crushing force in all the universe. Goku's body was forced to endure this, and unlocked the latent potential while simultaneously absorbing the singularity's energy 'just to survive'. It's really not hard to believe that a genkidama can = a large star's energy level, meaning, with some asspulling physics (normally, it requires a HUGE amount of mass to collapse in on its own gravity to create a black hole). Black holes also can absorb all forms of light/energy/matter, so if Goku somehow absorbed all of that energy while surviving the deadliest gravity force in the universe, that unlocked his true potential.

The technique was unlocked by pushing his body to the absolute limit, while the "form" was created by using the energy from the genkidama as a battery of sorts. Once the energy ran out, so to did the form.

Could Goku effectively master it by combining his own potential (massively powerful) god ki with the Ultra Instinct technique itself? Likely yes. Furthermore, this does NOT appear to be a super saiyan form at all. Perhaps an energy source from becoming a super saiyan could become the new battery, but it seems that didn't happen here. As others have stated, this is a technique that is the ultimate end goal for literally any martial artist, provided they train enough and have enough literal energy to drive it. Furthermore, as others have said, who knows if Whis even uses much energy at all when he fights? He may simply master the technique without needing the power.

I personally believe 'this' is the form we see a hint of at the end of Z (unintentionally, sure, but still), during the Uub fight. Goku never once transforms into a super saiyan form during the EoZ eps. Don't forget. Perhaps this form was even based off of it.

User avatar
Marlowe89
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:30 pm

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:00 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Technically speaking....... those people weren't wrong.
It's a bit too early to say that. Mastery of Self-Movement or "Ultra Instinct" isn't something exclusive to Saiyans, but it also doesn't seem to be a transformation for most known users of the technique either. In Goku's case, his appearance (eyes and hair) and aura go through some pretty distinct changes.

I do recall the dialogue in Super recently acknowledging at one point that Saiyans are unique from most other races in that they acquire strength through transformations, so perhaps this is just another way of transforming to obtain an ability that was previously much more difficult to master without. Put simply, the technique isn't necessarily restricted only to Saiyans but the transformation itself might be. We also still don't know how the merchandising will brand the actual form -- could it be a "Super Saiyan Whatever" or something else entirely?

User avatar
avasatu
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:23 pm

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by avasatu » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:58 pm

So, to unlock the technique, it seemed that a hefty combination of factors came into play, from my POV:

1) Immense stress on the body from SSB + KKx20 and beyond (Goku powered after at least once AFTER he was already KK x 20). "The limit of the limit."

2) The need to fight for the survival of himself and trillions of others, in the most true sense we've ever seen coming from the DB franchise, and against the most monstrous opponent imaginable. An opponent, who, I might add, was overwhelmingly more powerful.

3) The ability to channel godly ki with a high degree of mastery. "Special training."

3) The Spirit Bomb temporarily collapsing into a black hole, and Goku's body simultaneously becoming depleted. This would be a fist time and very rare occurrence in general. Goku's body falls into the singularity, and experiences an encounter with a viable power source for his body (viable due to his pure heart), an empty body ready to be powered, and a simultaneous need to withstand the devastating force explosion. Due to the strength and stamina of the androids in particular, I'm not sure we've seen a Spirit Bomb of this magnitude to date.

So we have Goku, under all these conditions, finding himself needing to use his bomb to power himself, but also needing to use his body to withstand this powerful force of pure, highly condensed, positive, life energy.

This collision of these two violently clashing (and almost opposite) goals triggered the breaking of Goku's "shell of potential." It seems like an asspull, but, in fact, these circumstances are unlikely to ever occur again. The stars really aligned to produce this situation for Goku. I think it was executed quite well.

As for what Ultra Instinct actually is, the show has explained that before. Goku can begin to explore the possibility of acting without thinking. He can still become stronger and faster, but he has crossed a significant power gap by removing his mental restrictions from his fighting.

One thing I do wonder, though, is if Goku will continuously improve in this form in response to stress, like he did initially in SSG, but permanently. Could this be a trait of this state of being, or does it plateau once its mastered?

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2006
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:09 pm

avasatu wrote:One thing I do wonder, though, is if Goku will continuously improve in this form in response to stress, like he did initially in SSG, but permanently. Could this be a trait of this state of being, or does it plateau once its mastered?
Well, the only confirmed master of this technique is Whis, and the way I've interpreted it, he's only so much stronger than Beerus because he's a casual master of the Ultra Instinct.

Ultra Instinct isn't a destructive power like the Gods of Destruction possess, but instead seems to be the truest style of martial arts, superseding all others in terms of versatility and skill.

It's noted in the episodes that Goku's power, while overwhelmingly intense after temporarily utilizing the Ultra Instinct, has a calm to it that borders on unsettling. In fact, a lot of things throughout this arc have been playing with the dichotomy of intensity and calm serenity. True Golden Freeza mastered his form's draining sappage, Goku uses the intense Kaio-ken with the calm-hearted SSB, Gohan trained his body hard and gained a warrior's calm mind to regain and evolve Ultimate, and Jiren is a stoic and quiet individual with an immensely unbelievable power.

User avatar
avasatu
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:23 pm

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by avasatu » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:52 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
avasatu wrote:One thing I do wonder, though, is if Goku will continuously improve in this form in response to stress, like he did initially in SSG, but permanently. Could this be a trait of this state of being, or does it plateau once its mastered?
Well, the only confirmed master of this technique is Whis, and the way I've interpreted it, he's only so much stronger than Beerus because he's a casual master of the Ultra Instinct.

Ultra Instinct isn't a destructive power like the Gods of Destruction possess, but instead seems to be the truest style of martial arts, superseding all others in terms of versatility and skill.

It's noted in the episodes that Goku's power, while overwhelmingly intense after temporarily utilizing the Ultra Instinct, has a calm to it that borders on unsettling. In fact, a lot of things throughout this arc have been playing with the dichotomy of intensity and calm serenity. True Golden Freeza mastered his form's draining sappage, Goku uses the intense Kaio-ken with the calm-hearted SSB, Gohan trained his body hard and gained a warrior's calm mind to regain and evolve Ultimate, and Jiren is a stoic and quiet individual with an immensely unbelievable power.
While all of what you said is indeed plausible, Goku was improving in power, speed, accuracy, and agility with each blow as his fight went on with Jiren, and at an even quicker rate than SSG improved vs Beerus. This makes me wonder if true mastery of Ultra Instinct allows for a more permanent, but perhaps slower adaptation to stress. Whis doesn't seem to be exposed to stress beyond his own level, so it would make sense that we wouldn't necessarily see this attribute of the technique coming from him. The reason I suspect this, by the way, is that Whis mentioned that this state of mind to should allow one to escape from any kind of danger encountered by its wielder.

User avatar
AnimeNation101
I Live Here
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:01 pm
Location: Planet ShoJump

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by AnimeNation101 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:13 pm

I think SSJ can be stacked onto Ultra Instinct. SSJ Ultra Instinct Goku. His hair would be silver-ish black to match his eyes and the arua would be the same but more fierce. It would be enough to at least take Jiren down with him.

Here is what I want. And episode: The Omni-versal Alliance! Jiren vs Everbody!?

In the episode before, Jiren ends up taking out a team and resulting in another Universe's erasure. Basically the first half of the episode involves every team teaming up temporarily to eliminate Jiren because of how he took out that universe team last episode. This episode should be equal to or greater than episodes 109 and 110 in art and animation because this is in important part of the arc. By the end of the first half, Goku is up and running but still can't access his form. Knowing that Goku is their only hope the rest of the Universes give Goku their genki as if to make a spirit bomb for Goku to absorb and trigger the form. This ends up working and the rematch between Goku and Jiren begins. But this time Goku in his Ultra Instinct form powers up to an SSJ, thus SSJ Ultra Instinct. The fight continues and ends in the next episode.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

"I don't think I'm a hero of justice or anythin'. But those who'd hurt my friends... I won't forgive!"

User avatar
GodVegetto91
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1833
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:06 pm

Here are my thoughts:

I believe (and hope) the technique and form are synonymous. At least for Saiyans exclusively. Anyone else who masters this ability to move without thinking, will keep their regular appearance, like Whis and all the other Angels for example. When a Saiyan masters the technique of "Ultra Instinct" he gains this new form alongside it. So i do think (and hope) that this technique can only be utilised in this form we saw Goku in. I do NOT want this form to be replaced by anything else! It looks just too cool and perfect to just throw it away. I wouldn't like it if Goku masters the ability to fight without thought in Base, SSJ1, 2, 3, God, or even Blue for that matter. This "Ultra Instinct Movement" should only be accessible in this form we saw yesterday imo.

So for Saiyans: Ultra Instinct is both a technique and form.

For anyone else, it's solely a technique, that doesn't alter the persons appearance.

You don't just throw this absolutely stunning and cool looking form to the wayside, just after achieving it. Furthermore, Toei is all about transformations these days, so they'll likely have Goku keep using this form for neccesary situations. I didn't like it when they did that with SSJ God back in the days, and i certainly wouldn't like that now!

This form needs a relevancy, it needs a purpose, something that makes it unique and stand out, and what better way to do it, then give this form the ability to move without thought exclusively?! At least that way, Toei has a reason to have Goku (and likely Vegeta later aswell) transform into this form. Otherwise it would lose it's meaning besides just a mere powerup. It just looks absolutely stunning! And i'm certain this "form" will do really well in the Merchandise Department! No doubt! It will sell endless copies and toys. It would be foolish of Toei to just throw it away, as if it's just another disposable form, like SSJ God.
Oh look.. A human being with an opinion.. What are the odds!?

SaintEvolution
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 782
Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 2:56 pm

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by SaintEvolution » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:02 pm

Just a question: it will be "Ultra Instinct" the real official name?

Because, the literal translation of "Migatte no Gokui" is something like "Secret of the Selfish" of "Secret of the Egocentric". Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

User avatar
GodVegetto91
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1833
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:48 am

SaintEvolution wrote:Just a question: it will be "Ultra Instinct" the real official name?

Because, the literal translation of "Migatte no Gokui" is something like "Secret of the Selfish" of "Secret of the Egocentric". Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Correct. Toei aren't the best translators, at least, not compared to some like Herms. But i think "Ultra Instinct", while not being a literal translation, does the job nicely.
Oh look.. A human being with an opinion.. What are the odds!?

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2006
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:06 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
SaintEvolution wrote:Just a question: it will be "Ultra Instinct" the real official name?

Because, the literal translation of "Migatte no Gokui" is something like "Secret of the Selfish" of "Secret of the Egocentric". Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Correct. Toei aren't the best translators, at least, not compared to some like Herms. But i think "Ultra Instinct", while not being a literal translation, does the job nicely.
As well, some new merchandise has been teased, and the new Goku figure is called Ultra Instinct "Omen".

It looks like that'll be the primary name for English speakers.

User avatar
gohan_black
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:10 pm

Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by gohan_black » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:09 am

if it becomes a regular form that goku can tap into i would be pissed. why? it shows super writing as cheap. first beerus wipe the floor with goku then goku does a stupid ritual and push him to 70%. then jiren wipe the floor with goku and then goku get a special form outta spirit bomb and match him. this is bullshit. goku given gifts over and over. vegeta achieve them in training

Post Reply