Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by HeroR » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:46 pm

emperior wrote:Episode 115 showed that Ultra Instinct is a sort of "mysterious" power that Goku unconsciously activates. In this state, his eyes go silver, his hair is slightly lifted upward and his body seemingly reaches its limit. It's definitely not a transformation, and Goku doesn't need to/can't transform when using Ultra Instinct because his body is at its peak in that state. We will definitely know more about UI in the future, and I'm very interested in seeing what decides a battle between two fighters with UI. Whis said he can't be compared to his father. Maybe the difference will be in power level as always, but I hope it will be something different. It would be cool if, for once, the battle between two UI users could be decided based on skill and pure martial arts. Like, Grand Priest is so skilled his body punishes every attack he receives with an awesome counter-attack.
I'd love to see Goku's next training being based on martial arts moves and not just about training his body to become stronger and faster.
It is a transformation and it's called a transformation in all marketing. Goku also go through a physical change, which is what a transformation is.
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Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:33 am

Well well well........ Look whose speculation just got partially confirmed!

So, Goku has now attained a brief bit of "control", so to speak, over the Ultra Instinct as of episode 116. He screams and powers up, and more heat than ever before is being emitted.

Not only that, but we see that the Ultra Instinct isn't totally infallible and unbeatable. Sort've. See, it turns out that for the Ultra Instinct to properly work, you REALLY gotta let it do the brunt of the work. When Goku actually puts thought into his attacks against Kefla, he's not hitting as hard as he or everyone else thought he would. Even though he's undoubtedly stronger, he can't properly hit with the full force he potentially could when he's the one doing the driving. I speculated that the Ultra Instinct could regulate power when it came to strikes to maximize damage, and it seems I might've been right. The Ultra Instinct just KNOWS. The mind is really a big obstacle, it seems.

Also, we see that it's not TOTALLY unbeatable, as when Kefla is going all-out all over the place, she CAN manage to slightly touch even Ultra Instinct Goku. Finally, as seen before, the Ultra Instinct puts a lot of strain on the body, no doubt related to the intense heat buildup it produces, and Goku's left pretty tuckered out afterward.

More nuances to this power, I like it!

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by majinwarman » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:36 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Well well well........ Look whose speculation just got partially confirmed!

So, Goku has now attained a brief bit of "control", so to speak, over the Ultra Instinct as of episode 116. He screams and powers up, and more heat than ever before is being emitted.

Not only that, but we see that the Ultra Instinct isn't totally infallible and unbeatable. Sort've. See, it turns out that for the Ultra Instinct to properly work, you REALLY gotta let it do the brunt of the work. When Goku actually puts thought into his attacks against Kefla, he's not hitting as hard as he or everyone else thought he would. Even though he's undoubtedly stronger, he can't properly hit with the full force he potentially could when he's the one doing the driving. I speculated that the Ultra Instinct could regulate power when it came to strikes to maximize damage, and it seems I might've been right. The Ultra Instinct just KNOWS. The mind is really a big obstacle, it seems.

Also, we see that it's not TOTALLY unbeatable, as when Kefla is going all-out all over the place, she CAN manage to slightly touch even Ultra Instinct Goku. Finally, as seen before, the Ultra Instinct puts a lot of strain on the body, no doubt related to the intense heat buildup it produces, and Goku's left pretty tuckered out afterward.

More nuances to this power, I like it!
Yeah, the more weakness Goku has, the more he can improve upon them like he always does.
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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by TBMx » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:06 pm

We know Goku gets the red and blue aura from spoiler images.

Blue is a calmer colour which we know is the colour of Goku's defence mastery of Ultra Instinct.

We know he has yet to master the attacking side.

Red is the colour of aggression. Of attack.

The two together make the complete ultra instinct

Seems obvious.

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:22 pm

TBMx wrote:We know Goku gets the red and blue aura from spoiler images.

Blue is a calmer colour which we know is the colour of Goku's defence mastery of Ultra Instinct.

We know he has yet to master the attacking side.

Red is the colour of aggression. Of attack.

The two together make the complete ultra instinct

Seems obvious.
I've noted it before, but there's been a bit of a "Red-Blue" dichotomy going on throughout this arc.

In the opening, Goku goes SSB, then is engulfed with a red energy.

When Goku fights Bergamo, Toppo, Gohan, and Jiren, he goes SSB, then uses Kaio-ken.

Golden Freeza's explanation of his mastery over his Golden form is compounded by his fists being outlined with red and blue.

Every single time, the blue represents tranquility, whilst the red represents intensity. Heck, Ultra Instinct Goku's first appearance has Roshi note that his energy is frighteningly calm despite how much intense heat he's emitting.

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by KingKaash » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:30 am

All I want to say about Ultra Instinct as of Ep 116 is that I think it's all around awesome and well balanced technique. First, the aesthetics are simply amazing. Keep everything normal except for the silver eyes and the intense aura. It's the best art for a Saiyan since SSJ to me. Secondly, as noted in Ep 116, it's extremely difficult to master. It's a great technique to use defensively as you can instinctively dodge almost every attack coming your way but it loses it's advantage when the user focuses on attacking while in an Ultra Instinct state. That's creative thinking to make the technique a balanced one. I love it and look forward to seeing shirtless Goku using UI.
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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by majinwarman » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:49 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
TBMx wrote:We know Goku gets the red and blue aura from spoiler images.

Blue is a calmer colour which we know is the colour of Goku's defence mastery of Ultra Instinct.

We know he has yet to master the attacking side.

Red is the colour of aggression. Of attack.

The two together make the complete ultra instinct

Seems obvious.
I've noted it before, but there's been a bit of a "Red-Blue" dichotomy going on throughout this arc.

In the opening, Goku goes SSB, then is engulfed with a red energy.

When Goku fights Bergamo, Toppo, Gohan, and Jiren, he goes SSB, then uses Kaio-ken.

Golden Freeza's explanation of his mastery over his Golden form is compounded by his fists being outlined with red and blue.

Every single time, the blue represents tranquility, whilst the red represents intensity. Heck, Ultra Instinct Goku's first appearance has Roshi note that his energy is frighteningly calm despite how much intense heat he's emitting.
I really like that. It makes it the story flow better. They hint at things through colors. That could be a great way to tease things to come. If they really are doing that.
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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by Ziegander » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:16 am

So, I'm not sure if my personal theory about UI holds up after 116, but here goes.

Ultra Instinct is a state Goku was "pretty sure" he could tap into since before the recruitment arc. He told Toppo to wait until he broke his limits, and everyone thought he meant even moar kaioken, but I'm pretty sure he meant a true limit to his power that kaioken can't reach. Every time Goku has used Ultra Instinct it's been after he's been defeated and depleted of energy. In fact, every time he's used Ultra Instinct he's also used kaioken before. It's like he's draining himself of energy on purpose. If he's been working at honing his instincts and training his body to act without thinking, then what might be the best state to put such a skill to the test? When he's too tired to think. When his body has no other choice but to act or die.

Now, reverting out of it and being, er, even more tired than too tired to think? I've got no explanation. The heat? No clue what that's supposed to mean. But my theory only supposes that Goku knew all along that he might be able to pull out this real trump card by exhausting himself of all power and hoping for the best lol.

For me this makes Ultra Instinct and how Goku "got it" a lot more sensible, interesting, and acceptable. He didn't just get it out of nowhere because Jiren hit him with his spirit bomb and instead of dying he mastered a god-level technique because... he had to. This is something he's been working on and half-hoping/half-expecting to happen at some point. This may even help explain why he wanted to fight Jiren so badly. Not just because he's another strong guy and Goku loves to fight strong guys, but because he knew there would be no one better in the tournament to help him get to the state he needed to be in to "unlock" Ultra Instinct. And just one more point of evidence to support that Goku sort of knew what was happening. Vegeta asked him what it was and Goku said he wasn't entirely sure, implying that he had some idea. He seemed to be about to say more when Freeza snatched him away.
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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:58 pm

There was nothing really to say about the Ultra Instinct itself in episode 117, mostly just Vegeta trying and failing to attain it hilariously.

He tried emptying his mind so that his body would do the work of defending against Katsopera's blows, but that didn't work out.

So, although it was obvious before, it's much safer to say that simply getting beat on won't incite your body to break past its limits. An amazingly powerful trigger like almost dying to the Genkidama or Kefla's massive power sending you sprawling seems to be what'll do the trick, and the latter potentially only happened because Goku had already broken his limits and attained the power of the Ultra Instinct.

Also, once again, the power that Goku displayed has never been referred to as anything but Ultra Instinct. No secondary sources of power, no "Ultra Instinct is the technique, the rest is an entirely separate form", nothing. Just Ultra Instinct. At this point, I think it's safe to say that Goku's silver-eyed state simply IS Ultra Instinct.

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by majinwarman » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:15 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:There was nothing really to say about the Ultra Instinct itself in episode 117, mostly just Vegeta trying and failing to attain it hilariously.

He tried emptying his mind so that his body would do the work of defending against Katsopera's blows, but that didn't work out.

So, although it was obvious before, it's much safer to say that simply getting beat on won't incite your body to break past its limits. An amazingly powerful trigger like almost dying to the Genkidama or Kefla's massive power sending you sprawling seems to be what'll do the trick, and the latter potentially only happened because Goku had already broken his limits and attained the power of the Ultra Instinct.

Also, once again, the power that Goku displayed has never been referred to as anything but Ultra Instinct. No secondary sources of power, no "Ultra Instinct is the technique, the rest is an entirely separate form", nothing. Just Ultra Instinct. At this point, I think it's safe to say that Goku's silver-eyed state simply IS Ultra Instinct.
I believe you nailed it on the head when comes to whether it is a transform or technique. I personally don't care if it is either one.
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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by Lupin879 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:03 am

But if one has telekinesis can block who has the ultra i... So a majin Bu or anyone who has telekinesis can win easy the ultra i

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:39 pm

Lupin879 wrote:But if one has telekinesis can block who has the ultra i... So a majin Bu or anyone who has telekinesis can win easy the ultra i
First of all, are you having trouble typing out "Instinct" for whatever reason?

Second, we see that the Ultra Instinct's removal of the brain when it comes to moving the body in a fight ups speed incredibly.

I don't remember the exact calculations, but if one were to do the same to a regular Human, our bodies could react at the speed of light. Factor in just how much faster powerful beings like Goku are, and you get ridiculously high combat speeds. We see this in action multiple times, like when Goku first went on the offensive against Jiren. His body moves to kick Jiren so fast that Toppo, a guy as strong as SSB Goku, didn't even notice he did that until he saw Jiren dodged the attack. I think that a user of the Ultra Instinct would simply move much too fast for someone with telekinesis to catch them.

Speaking of which, I do believe that the very first instance of Ultra Instinct that Goku displayed against Jiren utilized the ability to attack unconsciously that Goku failed to accomplish when he used this power against SS2 Kefla. His hits are accurate and powerful, and Goku seems to be wondering how his body managed to attack Jiren without his input, such as when we see from his perspective that he seems to just teleport into a kick, and after the theme song starts to kick up, he looks at his hands in wonder.

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:37 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Lupin879 wrote:But if one has telekinesis can block who has the ultra i... So a majin Bu or anyone who has telekinesis can win easy the ultra i
First of all, are you having trouble typing out "Instinct" for whatever reason?

Second, we see that the Ultra Instinct's removal of the brain when it comes to moving the body in a fight ups speed incredibly.

I don't remember the exact calculations, but if one were to do the same to a regular Human, our bodies could react at the speed of light. Factor in just how much faster powerful beings like Goku are, and you get ridiculously high combat speeds. We see this in action multiple times, like when Goku first went on the offensive against Jiren. His body moves to kick Jiren so fast that Toppo, a guy as strong as SSB Goku, didn't even notice he did that until he saw Jiren dodged the attack. I think that a user of the Ultra Instinct would simply move much too fast for someone with telekinesis to catch them.

Speaking of which, I do believe that the very first instance of Ultra Instinct that Goku displayed against Jiren utilized the ability to attack unconsciously that Goku failed to accomplish when he used this power against SS2 Kefla. His hits are accurate and powerful, and Goku seems to be wondering how his body managed to attack Jiren without his input, such as when we see from his perspective that he seems to just teleport into a kick, and after the theme song starts to kick up, he looks at his hands in wonder.
Is this true? Where'd you get that information from?

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:44 pm

A rough calculation someone did on another forums. I don't know the exact math, but it makes sense to me.

Electrical signals are what's sent from the brain to the rest of the body. Those electrons move faster than almost anything besides light. Thus, for the body to react without input like that, it'd basically have to react at light speed.

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by Lupin879 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:22 am

Thinking at the speed of light is nothing but for people who are already dodging and moving much faster than light. It does not make sense.
They act automatically beyond the speed of light

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:30 am

Lupin879 wrote:Thinking at the speed of light is nothing but for people who are already dodging and moving much faster than light. It does not make sense.
They act automatically beyond the speed of light
I only brought up that comparison to highlight the potential proportional boost, because that's for a REGULAR HUMAN.

Think of proportionally upping reaction times at such a level like that of Goku. That's INSANE, probably as fast as speedsters like the Flash.

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by Lupin879 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:24 am

The comparision with a human does not have sense is fiction

flash has already been overtaken by far
He only accelerates and moves only
He said to think about the speed of light but it is a hyperbole
However, we are already far behind

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:39 am

Based on today's episode, is continued usage of Ultra Instinct actually making Goku stronger each time? After the first time, Goku was totally out of it, needed Freeza to give him some energy and it took him awhile to muster up even the Super Saiyan transformation. After the second usage, he can now use SSB KK in short spurts. Whis kind of alluded to this in the episode ("Exposure to repeated extreme conditions can lead to acclimation. The bar may be getting raised on his opportunity to break his own shell.") Or maybe this alludes to Toriyama's interview about Goku mastering his normal state (UI) and thus sapping less strength/stamina?

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