Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

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Ziegander
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Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by Ziegander » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:54 pm

Does anyone else find themselves feeling a little deflated at this point? Jiren is God of Destruction level and it's confirmed that SSB, even SSBKKx20, are nowhere near that level. I'm intrigued with how they're going to explain Goku's sudden, wild burst of power and his newfound fighting skill/style, but I'm left feeling like every other character in the show is hopelessly in the dust and that the only way they'll stay relevant is through bad writing and/or obvious plot devices. Vegeta and Freeza are the two closest in power to Goku and he's like 100 times stronger than them now. Gohan and everyone else are so much further behind it's almost not even worth talking about. And that makes me legitimately sad.

Though, Super is the series for huge, out-of-nowhere, completely unearned, undeserved power-ups, so I suppose they can continue to play the power escalation game and give Gohan Supreme Kai form, Vegeta Super Saiyan Blue Rage, and Freeza can somehow kill Zeno and absorb his powers, but, still... that's just a game of kick the can. Everyone gets a power-up for no in-universe reason just so they can continue to keep up with the power of the adversaries, and that feels hollow too.

I don't know. What do you all see happening with characters like Gohan, Vegeta, and Freeza in the future? Are you worried there's no good way to move the story on from here that feels organic and well-written while allowing those characters to be relevant? If I'm following established precedent, it seems like Vegeta will just train a lot and probably either fail to unlock the Ultra Instinct form/skill or not unlock it for a very long time, Gohan will fade away into obscurity again and be completely irrelevant both for the rest of the tournament and any arc after, and, well, who knows with Freeza? Are Goku and Jiren so powerful that it sort of sucks the weight, like a black hole ( 8) ) , out of the whole rest of the series?
Last edited by Ziegander on Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by MaskedRider » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:00 pm

Kind of, I understand but what I forgot at first was that Ultra Instinct is not exclusive to Saiyans so it also leaves hope for me that (I doubt they will) allow others to receive divine training to reach more or less equal footing to hold their own, they don't even have to be on Goku or Jiren's level but to be able to fight the mortals in the universes that are not participating due to their high average mortal level would be satisfying for me enough.

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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:52 pm

Bullshit power-ups is Dragon Ball's modus operandi. It's not a new thing that Super has started. If characters have hit a glass ceiling, they'll always be be handed a new and contrived way of getting stronger. Whether it be off-screen training or being given a plot device like having hidden potential and transformations or training with a certain strong and mystical individual. It's worked wonders over the years for guys like Piccolo, Freeza, Vegeta and Gohan.

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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by TheMikado » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:59 pm

Ironically I personally believe the intent of Ultra Instinct was a direct counter to the power escalation situation and I think it was misinterpreted in the anime into a more powerful form. That's my theory anyway.

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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by KidGoku>3 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:46 pm

I don't understand this sorry.

You mean to tell me SSJ1, SSJ2, 3, 4, SSG,SSB etc. all were fine and all but a different, more unique transformation was what broke the camels back for you ?
Power levels have always been BS. Even more so in the past. The gap instantly closed with whatever reason in the past even when it never made much sense. But this is the one that has you deflated ? This is probably the first time in DB history that a transformation made more sense than it ever did. It was even foreshadowed. No atatatatata rage moments that led to this but rather a very real and calculated concept and a fair explanation unlike all the previous moments.

I also don't understand why this means Trunks, Gohan have to catch up or they'll be wasted story wise ? Why can't they lead their own way even if it means less powerful and still be relevant ? Why is power the only defining moment ? This is probably the biggest curse of DB. I think it's time DBS goes a different path here and doesn't fall back on those old tropes and focuses more on story than power (not saying they shouldn't focus on power).

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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by Yedis » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:53 pm

How do you classify an unearned power up?
Last edited by Yedis on Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by TheMikado » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:06 pm

KidGoku>3 wrote:I don't understand this sorry.

You mean to tell me SSJ1, SSJ2, 3, 4, SSG,SSB etc. all were fine and all but a different, more unique transformation was what broke the camels back for you ?
Power levels have always been BS. Even more so in the past. The gap instantly closed with whatever reason in the past even when it never made much sense. But this is the one that has you deflated ? This is probably the first time in DB history that a transformation made more sense than it ever did. It was even foreshadowed. No atatatatata rage moments that led to this but rather a very real and calculated concept and a fair explanation unlike all the previous moments.

I also don't understand why this means Trunks, Gohan have to catch up or they'll be wasted story wise ? Why can't they lead their own way even if it means less powerful and still be relevant ? Why is power the only defining moment ? This is probably the biggest curse of DB. I think it's time DBS goes a different path here and doesn't fall back on those old tropes and focuses more on story than power (not saying they shouldn't focus on power).
Actually SSG broke me. When the first arc has Goku and Beerus almost "punching" the universe out of existence I knew I wasn't going to like the direction of anything that came after.
It's like watching One Punch Man and then each arc he gets like 100x stronger and manages to keep finding stronger more challenging opponents some kind of way, but instead of it being satirical its played completely straight.

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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by BWri » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:08 pm

TheMikado wrote:Ironically I personally believe the intent of Ultra Instinct was a direct counter to the power escalation situation and I think it was misinterpreted in the anime into a more powerful form. That's my theory anyway.
I said that about God Ki before, but Toriyama and the Toei team found a way to make that Saiyan centric too. This'll likely be no different, except I'm thinking that Frieza will try to get it, which would be awesome. But yeah, this awesome concept will likely just be used to further imbalance the power scale, keeping Goku far far far above the others.
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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by TheGreatSaiyaman » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:04 pm

In all honesty, all of Super has been Goku >>>>> more or less everyone else (with the exception of GoDs and Angels) until the next villain arrives and that's the formula I see Toei sticking to:
Vegeta - has had cool moments, but is ultimately placed into the second fiddle position cause Goku is the MC, icon and the biggest draw of DBS
Gohan - returned, looked great in this run-up to the arc vs Goku with Ultimate, but hasn't done any that's really been like yep that's why we should have had him back here as much as it pains me to say as he's my boi, even his transformation to Ultimate looks trashy, its not got the wow factor of the cracking shell SSB, lightning of SS2, nothing :roll:
Frieza - barely seen so far but will probably have some role in the future just before our hero Goku recovers and beats the big bad in Mastered U.I.... and then its back to 'I hate Saiyans', monkeys this, filthy that, death beam here, death beam there..





still love Goku and Jiren but low-key though; ma boi strong asf - he's basically SSB level with a day's training lol

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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:40 pm

TheGreatSaiyaman wrote:In all honesty, all of Super has been Goku >>>>> more or less everyone else (with the exception of GoDs and Angels) until the next villain arrives
That is not the case at all. In fact, Goku has a subpar track record in combat in Super:
- Lost to Beerus
- Lost to Freeza
- Beat Botamo
- Lost to Frost (although that lost was nullified as Frost was disqualified)
- Forfeited against Hit
- Beat Copy Vegeta
- Lost to Goku Black and/or Zamasu on several occasions
- Fought Hit to a draw
- Beat Bergamo
- Fought Toppo to a draw

It's only since the Tournament Of Power has started that Goku has been racking up the wins.

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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by BlueBasilisk » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:51 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:It's only since the Tournament Of Power has started that Goku has been racking up the wins.
And even most of those came in a single episode. I don't think Goku has defeated a single person for an elimination since 98.

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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:15 pm

I'd say if that feeling bothers you a lot, you should try reading the manga. SSG and SSB remain pretty consistent in power, and I believe the whole "SSG made Beerus go 70%" thing still stands there. Ultra Instinct isn't going to be as much of a jump in power based on Beerus telling Vegeta he's strong enough to be a GoD candidate as-is.

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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by nato25 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:26 pm

Goku's track record especially in Super has not been great.

Lost to Beerus
Kind of beat Golden Frieza but also lost
Lost to Frost sorta
Lost to Hit straight up
Lost to Rose Black
Probably would have beat Zamasu but he was immortal, still a loss.
Beat Toppo and Bergamo
Lost to Jiren

Kind of crazy considering his power ups.

I think the way to make other characters relevant is try and have Vegeta keep up with Goku (seriously don't ask me how because I have no clue at this point) and then just have those two be in the realm of gods while other threats are taken on by the remainder of the Z-warriors. Similar to what Resurrection F did, that was a great way to make the gang relevant.

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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by himanashi » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:31 pm

I agree with how you feel, although DB, particularly since the Saiyan saga, has been all about ridiculous power jumps like this. The problem is that we're going above the god ceiling now, and you'd think that there's not much more room up there... although I suppose by the time Pan is fighting, she'll be fighting the being above Zen-oh. If they just keep pushing it up to match or surpass characters that rule universes, it's going to get ridiculous. And arcs featuring lower stakes and lower-powered villains are going to have either no place or no realism (relative to the genre). But where else do they go from here?

That said, no matter at what level the fights are taking place, DB will always be about Goku. It's frustrating on the one hand, because my favorites are a handful of the other major characters, but I also appreciate it on another level. Goku will always embody that humble, salt-of-the-earth, rural Japanese identity that grounds the franchise even as his power level soars to new heights in every arc. His relationships with these characters he surpasses, like Kulilin, is what brings that quality out. I hope they never drop that aspect. If mainstay characters like Kulilin or Piccolo ever stop being relevant, not even as fighters but as emotional connections, then the show has gone too far in pursuing coolness at the expense of character. Piccolo's already had a pitiful treatment of that in Super, and it's still absurd to me that Super didn't know what to do with once and future Z protagonist Gohan until recently (and might still drop him again for lack of interest). Goku's characterization can get a little too simplistic in general and I miss his more serious side from the DB manga, but I think he'll at least always be that humble hero with a few cherished connections that ground the series. I'm okay with the escalating power levels as long as Goku isn't going alone and if it involves these other characters in meaningful ways, rather than being his cheerleaders who just send him off and welcome him back again.

I do wonder how they are going to scale this back down sufficiently so that Goku's excitement over training with Uub at the end of Z is going to be remotely realistic. Not at current levels, him training with angels, the stronger universes on the horizon, and characters like Jiren floating around. (That ending with him flying off with Uub and leaving his family behind was pretty bad, though, imo, like a lot of the Buu saga. So maybe they're going to rewrite the end.)

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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:32 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
TheGreatSaiyaman wrote:In all honesty, all of Super has been Goku >>>>> more or less everyone else (with the exception of GoDs and Angels) until the next villain arrives
That is not the case at all. In fact, Goku has a subpar track record in combat in Super:
- Lost to Beerus
- Lost to Freeza
- Beat Botamo
- Lost to Frost (although that lost was nullified as Frost was disqualified)
- Forfeited against Hit
- Beat Copy Vegeta
- Lost to Goku Black and/or Zamasu on several occasions
- Fought Hit to a draw
- Beat Bergamo
- Fought Toppo to a draw

It's only since the Tournament Of Power has started that Goku has been racking up the wins.
He means that even though Goku keeps losing he's still so far above everyone else it's not even funny.

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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:58 pm

Some people here are setting everything up based on Goku's victories and defeats.

This does not matter when he has so many fights that overshadow the participation of other characters and when he always has some hidden power UP to become much more powerful than his comrades.

Counting the pre-tournament, Goku had more than 8 fights. In the tournament he appears in almost every episode, having fights all the time, making it not give time to explore characters from other universes.
He simply got a Kaioken increased by 20 times and a new transformation. He was already abysmally more powerful than the others, now we do not even speak.
We are already in the climax of the tournament and there is still missing the Namekuseijins, hidden warriors of U4, a highlight fight for Freeza and Vegeta, and many other things. The screen time of Goku could be split much better

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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:18 am

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
TheGreatSaiyaman wrote:In all honesty, all of Super has been Goku >>>>> more or less everyone else (with the exception of GoDs and Angels) until the next villain arrives
That is not the case at all. In fact, Goku has a subpar track record in combat in Super:
- Lost to Beerus
- Lost to Freeza
- Beat Botamo
- Lost to Frost (although that lost was nullified as Frost was disqualified)
- Forfeited against Hit
- Beat Copy Vegeta
- Lost to Goku Black and/or Zamasu on several occasions
- Fought Hit to a draw
- Beat Bergamo
- Fought Toppo to a draw

It's only since the Tournament Of Power has started that Goku has been racking up the wins.
He means that even though Goku keeps losing he's still so far above everyone else it's not even funny.
Within the main cast, yeah sure. That's par for the course. Goku always manages to distance himself from the rest of the cast. But the heavy hitters (Vegeta, Gohan, and on occasion Piccolo) eventually find a way to keep up to certain degrees. And even that regard, up against guys like Hit, Jiren, Toppo, Freeza, Goku either meets his match or is complete trounced in battle.

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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by TheGreatSaiyaman » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:05 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
TheGreatSaiyaman wrote:In all honesty, all of Super has been Goku >>>>> more or less everyone else (with the exception of GoDs and Angels) until the next villain arrives
That is not the case at all. In fact, Goku has a subpar track record in combat in Super:
- Lost to Beerus
- Lost to Freeza
- Beat Botamo
- Lost to Frost (although that lost was nullified as Frost was disqualified)
- Forfeited against Hit
- Beat Copy Vegeta
- Lost to Goku Black and/or Zamasu on several occasions
- Fought Hit to a draw
- Beat Bergamo
- Fought Toppo to a draw

It's only since the Tournament Of Power has started that Goku has been racking up the wins.
He means that even though Goku keeps losing he's still so far above everyone else it's not even funny.
Pretty much this, but I can see what you mean by the others, Lord Beerus.

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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by BWri » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:01 am

TheGreatSaiyaman wrote:In all honesty, all of Super has been Goku >>>>> more or less everyone else (with the exception of GoDs and Angels) until the next villain arrives and that's the formula I see Toei sticking to:
Vegeta - has had cool moments, but is ultimately placed into the second fiddle position cause Goku is the MC, icon and the biggest draw of DBS
Gohan - returned, looked great in this run-up to the arc vs Goku with Ultimate, but hasn't done any that's really been like yep that's why we should have had him back here as much as it pains me to say as he's my boi, even his transformation to Ultimate looks trashy, its not got the wow factor of the cracking shell SSB, lightning of SS2, nothing :roll:
Frieza - barely seen so far but will probably have some role in the future just before our hero Goku recovers and beats the big bad in Mastered U.I.... and then its back to 'I hate Saiyans', monkeys this, filthy that, death beam here, death beam there..
That's pretty much my problem with the whole thing. It's like no-one learned their lessons from the Namek arc and how Frieza's crazy power jumps more or less broke the show. This Jiren thing is actually worse than that, now that we are at god levels. I just don't like how they built up all the other characters, but now they're basically nothing again, because if you're not relative to Goku, you're treated as a weakling in the show. This is the only show I know where scores of planet busters, maybe hundreds of them, are considered weaklings. I will hold my definitive judgement though, since there's so much more tournament to go, but every time I get a whiff that they'll balance the show, they go in the complete opposite direction and stack more on Goku and sometimes the other Saiyans.
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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by majinwarman » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:33 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
TheGreatSaiyaman wrote:In all honesty, all of Super has been Goku >>>>> more or less everyone else (with the exception of GoDs and Angels) until the next villain arrives
That is not the case at all. In fact, Goku has a subpar track record in combat in Super:
- Lost to Beerus
- Lost to Freeza
- Beat Botamo
- Lost to Frost (although that lost was nullified as Frost was disqualified)
- Forfeited against Hit
- Beat Copy Vegeta
- Lost to Goku Black and/or Zamasu on several occasions
- Fought Hit to a draw
- Beat Bergamo
- Fought Toppo to a draw

It's only since the Tournament Of Power has started that Goku has been racking up the wins.
This man speaks the truth.
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