Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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gofishus
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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by gofishus » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:24 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
TheGreatSaiyaman wrote:In all honesty, all of Super has been Goku >>>>> more or less everyone else (with the exception of GoDs and Angels) until the next villain arrives
That is not the case at all. In fact, Goku has a subpar track record in combat in Super:
- Lost to Beerus
- Lost to Freeza
- Beat Botamo
- Lost to Frost (although that lost was nullified as Frost was disqualified)
- Forfeited against Hit
- Beat Copy Vegeta
- Lost to Goku Black and/or Zamasu on several occasions
- Fought Hit to a draw
- Beat Bergamo
- Fought Toppo to a draw

It's only since the Tournament Of Power has started that Goku has been racking up the wins.
The OP is saying that Goku is the FOCUS of Super and that is correct. It has nothing to do with Goku actually winning or losing his fights. The point is Super is focused on Goku much more than anyone else. Whereas in DBZ i guess it was more spread out amongst others. I mean for several arcs in DBZ Goku wasnt even alive..

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Lord Beerus
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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:24 pm

gofishus wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
TheGreatSaiyaman wrote:In all honesty, all of Super has been Goku >>>>> more or less everyone else (with the exception of GoDs and Angels) until the next villain arrives
That is not the case at all. In fact, Goku has a subpar track record in combat in Super:
- Lost to Beerus
- Lost to Freeza
- Beat Botamo
- Lost to Frost (although that lost was nullified as Frost was disqualified)
- Forfeited against Hit
- Beat Copy Vegeta
- Lost to Goku Black and/or Zamasu on several occasions
- Fought Hit to a draw
- Beat Bergamo
- Fought Toppo to a draw

It's only since the Tournament Of Power has started that Goku has been racking up the wins.
The OP is saying that Goku is the FOCUS of Super and that is correct. It has nothing to do with Goku actually winning or losing his fights. The point is Super is focused on Goku much more than anyone else. Whereas in DBZ i guess it was more spread out amongst others. I mean for several arcs in DBZ Goku wasnt even alive..
Even when Goku wasn't alive in Z, there was still the underlining theme of "Where's Goku?" or "When' Goku going to arrive?" or "I hope Goku comes in time to save us." That was the case in the Saiyan arc, on Namek and during the Android and Cell arc. Hell, the whole point of Goku not taking out Majin Boo when he had the chance to was because even he realised how much of a crutch character he had become.

Goku was always the central focus in DBZ, even when wasn't around. His actions and overall influence drove the plot of the show. And why wouldn't it? He is the main character.

HeroR
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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by HeroR » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:22 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
gofishus wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: That is not the case at all. In fact, Goku has a subpar track record in combat in Super:
- Lost to Beerus
- Lost to Freeza
- Beat Botamo
- Lost to Frost (although that lost was nullified as Frost was disqualified)
- Forfeited against Hit
- Beat Copy Vegeta
- Lost to Goku Black and/or Zamasu on several occasions
- Fought Hit to a draw
- Beat Bergamo
- Fought Toppo to a draw

It's only since the Tournament Of Power has started that Goku has been racking up the wins.
The OP is saying that Goku is the FOCUS of Super and that is correct. It has nothing to do with Goku actually winning or losing his fights. The point is Super is focused on Goku much more than anyone else. Whereas in DBZ i guess it was more spread out amongst others. I mean for several arcs in DBZ Goku wasnt even alive..
Even when Goku wasn't alive in Z, there was still the underlining theme of "Where's Goku?" or "When' Goku going to arrive?" or "I hope Goku comes in time to save us." That was the case in the Saiyan arc, on Namek and during the Android and Cell arc. Hell, the whole point of Goku not taking out Majin Boo when he had the chance to was because even he realised how much of a crutch character he had become.

Goku was always the central focus in DBZ, even when wasn't around. His actions and overall influence drove the plot of the show. And why wouldn't it? He is the main character.
Nitpick, but he didn't really lose to Freeza. It went like this. He won, then he lost thanks to inference, then won again thanks to interference. He also didn't fight Toppo to a draw. He fought until the Grand Priest called off the fight and before then he was kicking Toppo's ass.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Man, Ultra Instinct is cool and all, but...

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:39 pm

Ziegander wrote:Does anyone else find themselves feeling a little deflated at this point? Jiren is God of Destruction level and it's confirmed that SSB, even SSBKKx20, are nowhere near that level. I'm intrigued with how they're going to explain Goku's sudden, wild burst of power and his newfound fighting skill/style, but I'm left feeling like every other character in the show is hopelessly in the dust and that the only way they'll stay relevant is through bad writing and/or obvious plot devices. Vegeta and Freeza are the two closest in power to Goku and he's like 100 times stronger than them now. Gohan and everyone else are so much further behind it's almost not even worth talking about. And that makes me legitimately sad.

Though, Super is the series for huge, out-of-nowhere, completely unearned, undeserved power-ups, so I suppose they can continue to play the power escalation game and give Gohan Supreme Kai form, Vegeta Super Saiyan Blue Rage, and Freeza can somehow kill Zeno and absorb his powers, but, still... that's just a game of kick the can. Everyone gets a power-up for no in-universe reason just so they can continue to keep up with the power of the adversaries, and that feels hollow too.

I don't know. What do you all see happening with characters like Gohan, Vegeta, and Freeza in the future? Are you worried there's no good way to move the story on from here that feels organic and well-written while allowing those characters to be relevant? If I'm following established precedent, it seems like Vegeta will just train a lot and probably either fail to unlock the Ultra Instinct form/skill or not unlock it for a very long time, Gohan will fade away into obscurity again and be completely irrelevant both for the rest of the tournament and any arc after, and, well, who knows with Freeza? Are Goku and Jiren so powerful that it sort of sucks the weight, like a black hole ( 8) ) , out of the whole rest of the series?
Goku got Ultra Instinct from a near death experience from an overwhelmingly powerful foe. Given what we know about Saiyan biology, the sudden power boost isn't necessarily a surprise. That being said, remember the days where Super Saiyan Blue was supposed to be on a completely different level as well, but ended up being the most underwhelming transformation in recent memory if not ever for so many characters being able to either fight or having power on par with the form, or completely beat the living shit out of it? (This is coming from a guy who actually likes SSB) I'm not necessarily saying that's gonna happen with Ultra Instinct, but they've always found a way to get some characters that are "in the dust" some moments to shine, however few those moments may be.

Apropos of those characters:
*Vegeta: wouldn't surprise me at all if he caught up with Goku, and part of me expects it to happen. If he can somehow simulate the near death experience Goku got and recover from it. But if it doesn't happen, then it doesn't happen. But I at least expect him to go far.
*Freeza: I wouldn't like him to go so soon (he likely will though), given how many times he's managed to steal the spotlight. I recall when people were shitting on the idea of Freeza being brought back again, but I'll tell you, I've never enjoyed him so much as a character than I did from this arc. Given how he went from not being able to beat the basic Super Saiyan form to being able to overpower the ultimate Super Saiyan form in just 4-6 months or whatever, I gather that Freeza will still be a threat somehow if he manages to stick around.
*Gohan: Honestly, given how Trunks got a ridiculous power boost in his arc, kinda surprises me that Gohan hasn't gotten there yet. I guess the guy just needs to be pushed far beyond his limits.
*Piccolo: Oh man, I really wish he were a lot stronger. Perhaps find more Namekians to merge with. :cry:
*Androids: I like them both a lot too, but they've been faded into the background for so long that I'm doubtful they'll be getting critical roles after this arc. But I'd like to be wrong.
*Majin Buu: anyone remember him? They've done what they could to completely shelve the thing. Sucks. Do not know what they'll do with him, TTYTT.
*As for any humans, well no, can't see much from them on their part, but it's not their fault.

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