Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Individual discussions for each episode of Dragon Ball Super.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
CJStriker_CBR
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1542
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:22 pm

Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:29 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:I brought these points up in another thread, but I'll reaffirm them because they remain valid:
- I'm not impressed with how Ribrianne's performed in the tournament so far. Base Vegeta easily overpowered her and would have finished her off if Rozie didn't make the save. And Base Goku was just fucking around with her, before he sent her crashing to ground with single kick as a SSJB. It really does seem like Toei did the old smoke-and-mirrors trick with regards as to how strong she truly was. Because now it seems like Android 17 was just dicking around with her too when he was fighting her as well, given how she's performed in the last 3 episodes.
- I feel this another one of those scenarios where Toriyama didn't put enough detail in the plot outline, in regards for how much Ribrianne would contribute in the tournament in terms of fighting other opponents, and Toei decided to throw her bone anyway and have her fight a SSJB tier character in Android 17 to start off with, before realising that the role Toriyama gave her in this whole arc was to have a fun and wacky transformation, before basically jobbing out to the Saiyans (Goku and/or Vegeta) once the actual tournament began.
- I have a horrible feeling Toriyama originally wrote Ribrianne to be a glorified gag character. And I will be very interested to see how the manga handles her. I still enjoy Ribrianne's character of being a deconstructive parody of the Magical Girl genre, but for a character who was billed a key player for Universe 2, she has really not live up to that billing. The more I think about it, the more I believe Ribrianne is a decoy protagonist for Team Universe 2, and the true heavy hitter(s) for Universe 2 haven't been seen yet.
Spider-Man wrote:
    Thing that I dislike
      -Once again Ribrianne is a weakling,so dissapointed with her character throught the scene where Rozie motivated Ribrianne was nice.
      Simere wrote:I felt bad for Ribrianne this episode, and still feel bad thinking about it.
      I would not count down our Ribrianne Yet Spider-Man, Simere and Lord Beerus, Let me Explain. :thumbup: :idea:

      Really, I think This fight made more sense here with Vegeta then it did with Goku. Where in that I think both fighters where screwing around or Toei was screwing around, your pick, here it was more Clearly-Clear from the start of the fight something was wrong with Ribrianne, she was not her usual confident self and that came across right away. Story-wise and thanks to some discussion on the Strength page about this, you combine Ribrianne's battle after battle stacking up her fatigue, as well as and maybe more importantly;

      What seem to be her quickly lacking confidence in herself and her team to win, their-by her lowing of her confidence in her love. This all come threw more defined when talking with Rozie. I believe now and thanks to a Discussion with Hugo Boss;

      Ribrianne's Powers, which comes from her love or in this case in this moment/fight the confidence she had in her love can determine how strong she is. It is like how this works when I compared her to the Emotional Spectrum of the Lantern Cores from DC Comics, like I did when I 1st started talking about her powers. For Example, If a Green Lantern lacks self confidence in their Will then they become weaken and are open attacks like the Yellow Light of Fear.

      So by this I think Ribrianne works the same way and combine that with being in battle after battle that have been against high tier fighters, it adds-ups.

      So Indeed, as with the discussion with Rozie showed, she was lacking confidence in her Love and also being in so many battles, Plus the whole thing with Jiren revealing his true power...........Yea, that is why the Battle with Vegeta become so hard for her. I like detailed story elements like this that give details on how ones powers work and why a fight is playing out as it is here being more well defined.

      We saw Ribrianne fight on a High Plan of Higher Tiers with Vegeta in SSJ-1 easy and Android 17 at a Serious level and Breaking his Shield with 1 Punch with not lose or fatigue or lack in power, just constent increasing in it. In These cases of these fights at those points, she was High in her confidence, ergo her Love and in herself as well as her team was high too.

      This is a Good story element that can effect many fighters in their own ways. These events lead to that Very Important and Character-Changing moment where Rozie slaps her out of it to make her come back to her sense, a trope straight out of many Magical Girl/Sailor Moon/Anime Theme Heroes, where the hero get down on themselves and need to be motivated to become who they are again. Ribrianne was in a self-doubting moment, so her powers where low, so it works well here towards justifying that moment and I Love this clever story element to help push Ribrianne into hopefully a Greater Form of Power to come.

      So while the Base Goku Fight was weird to say it in the nicest way, this Fight with Vegeta was far more well defined and executed, leading to what I believe we will see Spider-Man, Simere and Lord Beerus into a New Level of power and hopefully a New Form of Ribrianne too. Only time will tell What and Who is right, but that is my breakdown of this important moment and what might come next from it! :idea: :thumbup:
      --- ADMIN NOTE: THIS SIGNATURE IS FAR TOO LONG. PLEASE REDUCE IN SIZE. ---
      Let it Bloom. Let it Ring. The Song of Love & Victory!”:clap:
      Brianne De Chateau/Ribrianne!
      My #1 in DB!
      :thumbup:

      I’m a Veteran Poster of Comic Book Resources since 2012! 8)
      http://community.comicbookresources.com ... -CJStriker

      User avatar
      ekrolo2
      Kicks it Old-School
      Posts: 7812
      Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
      Location: Split, Croatia

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:40 pm

      Lord Beerus wrote:
      ekrolo2 wrote:
      Lord Beerus wrote: I liked the fight because Hit felt confident in being able to restrain Jiren for long enough until the tournament ended. I mean, even after seeing what Jiren did to Goku, Hit still had the resolve and belief that his new and improved Time-Skip could make the difference. I like that kind of self-confidence and belief in characters.

      And it seemed as though that Hit was under the impression that even if Jiren was immobilised by his Time Skip/Freeze attack, and other characters tried to attack him, Jiren will still no sell it. And he had a point. Because we later see that Jiren put up a barrier to protect himself from Hit's attack when he wanted to finish off Jiren while he couldn't move that much and even when he was meditating and seemed available for sneak attack, he just had a barrier to protect himself and knock away opponents. Plus, martial arts pride and all that. You know. It's a Dragon Ball thing, given it is a martial arts show.

      I'm not bothered at all with Hit's Time Skip abilities evolving the way they did. We see during the Champa arc, that Hit can make sudden adjustments to how his Time-Skip operate to adapt to how the fight might be progressing, especially if it's not in his favour. And given how his rematch with Goku went it wouldn't be out of the ordinary if Hit decided to make more changes to how his Time-Skip would work so that it could be versatile in combat should he come across a fighter as strong, or even stronger, than Goku in his Super Saiyan Blue form. Hit just have the unfortunate luck of pitting his new abilities on a opponent who's brute strength could overcome what the Time-Skip could dish out. We see that happen with Goku stacking Kaioken on top of Super Saiyan Blue and in their second bout (Episode 72), so the concept of an opponent overpowering Hit's Time-Skip ability certainly has some credence and isn't out of the ordinary.
      The problem is that the episode touts itself as showing some development for Hit where he believes in shit and other people but what he does doesn't match up with this at all.

      Hit is actually an idiot of he thinks neither Toppo nor Dypso or both of them won't attack him to free Jiren on the off chance he can actually hold him down for a long period of time. He has nobody to guard him or anything, he's the epitome of a sitting duck. It's all the more aggregious since the U6 Saiyan's specifically offer to help him out and he doesn't even tell them "watch my back while I hold him off!".

      I don't even mean have the U6 Saiyan's attack Jiren directly, just break the fucking stage underneath him to ring him out. It's not like weak people haven't been able to do that yet. The whole warrior pride angle doesn't even make sense as the entire tournament has people constantly jump in to help one another out. Vegeta helps out Goku, Roshi,... Goku & Vegeta help out everyone else during the sniper episode, Krillin helps out 18, Kale helps out Caulifla, Goku helps Hit, Hit helps Bergamo take out a guy at the very start ouf the tournament, Toppo & Dypso try to take out UI Goku despite him and Jiren not being done,... It all feels so fucking contrived.

      I'm not against Hit being overpowered, I just dislike how his Time Skip can apparently do whatever the hell the plot needs it to. Especially since it retroactively makes no sense, why are there no phantom Hit's in the U6 tournament? Or him trying to freeze Goku to take him out as he does to Jiren? Remember, U6 already implies Hit has a wider variety of abilities he can't use for fear of killing someone but besides his ranged attack, literally none of them are inherently lethal.
      I don't think Hit thought for second that the other Pride Troopers wouldn't attack him. And even if he told Cabba, Caulifla and Kale and stick out and prevent that, Toppo and Dyspo would just kick their butts if that were the case. And he wanted the Universe 6 Saiyan trio to be more productive and eliminate more fighters and leave what happens to him with Jiren to him himself. It may seem dumb, but as fighter with honour like Hit, he didn't want drag his other teammate into his scenario with Jiren and run the risk of getting eliminated as well and dramatically increase the chances of Universe 6 getting eliminated as a whole.

      None of the new Time-Skip based techniques we see Hit use on Jiren are lethal, though. They're were techniques used for defence and counter attack purposes. We see the kind of deadly Time-Skip influenced attacks that Hit is capable of in Episode 71 and he would not be able to do that kind of shit in the Tournament Of Power, given the tournament has a strict no killing rule. There's nothing really unusual about Hit developing his Time-Skip abilities to fit a more adaptive and tactical purpose knowing what kind of scenario he would be getting in when he was told about the Tournament Of Power and especially after his fights against Goku.
      Hit HAS to get them to either protect him or smash the stage under Jiren, his plan is entirely pointless without either happening. Telling them to leave so Dyspo and Toppo can come in and kick him away, which WILL happen since he's completely exposed while the remaining U11 people are entirely free to move at their leisure. Him telling the U6 Saiyan's to simply fire around the ring to get Jiren out then buzz off if all else fails is WAY smarter and a much better showcase of how Hit needs team mates to help him over Vado's nothing speech near the end. It's a really stupid plan as is.

      I mean retroactively for the U6 tournament, Hit apparently has all this shit lying around then and it's not lethal yet he doesn't use any of it at all against Goku.... Even though the entire point of Goku forfeiting is because Hit can't use everything against him... Which is a load of shit since he clearly can: almost none of his abilities are inherently lethal. It also REALLY stretches out the definition of Time Skip cause making time clones, prisons and alternate dimensions to store time is NOT skipping it.
      When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

      How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

      User avatar
      Lord Beerus
      Namekian Warrior
      Posts: 20535
      Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
      Location: A temple on a giant tree
      Contact:

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:55 pm

      ekrolo2 wrote:
      Lord Beerus wrote:
      ekrolo2 wrote: The problem is that the episode touts itself as showing some development for Hit where he believes in shit and other people but what he does doesn't match up with this at all.

      Hit is actually an idiot of he thinks neither Toppo nor Dypso or both of them won't attack him to free Jiren on the off chance he can actually hold him down for a long period of time. He has nobody to guard him or anything, he's the epitome of a sitting duck. It's all the more aggregious since the U6 Saiyan's specifically offer to help him out and he doesn't even tell them "watch my back while I hold him off!".

      I don't even mean have the U6 Saiyan's attack Jiren directly, just break the fucking stage underneath him to ring him out. It's not like weak people haven't been able to do that yet. The whole warrior pride angle doesn't even make sense as the entire tournament has people constantly jump in to help one another out. Vegeta helps out Goku, Roshi,... Goku & Vegeta help out everyone else during the sniper episode, Krillin helps out 18, Kale helps out Caulifla, Goku helps Hit, Hit helps Bergamo take out a guy at the very start ouf the tournament, Toppo & Dypso try to take out UI Goku despite him and Jiren not being done,... It all feels so fucking contrived.

      I'm not against Hit being overpowered, I just dislike how his Time Skip can apparently do whatever the hell the plot needs it to. Especially since it retroactively makes no sense, why are there no phantom Hit's in the U6 tournament? Or him trying to freeze Goku to take him out as he does to Jiren? Remember, U6 already implies Hit has a wider variety of abilities he can't use for fear of killing someone but besides his ranged attack, literally none of them are inherently lethal.
      I don't think Hit thought for second that the other Pride Troopers wouldn't attack him. And even if he told Cabba, Caulifla and Kale and stick out and prevent that, Toppo and Dyspo would just kick their butts if that were the case. And he wanted the Universe 6 Saiyan trio to be more productive and eliminate more fighters and leave what happens to him with Jiren to him himself. It may seem dumb, but as fighter with honour like Hit, he didn't want drag his other teammate into his scenario with Jiren and run the risk of getting eliminated as well and dramatically increase the chances of Universe 6 getting eliminated as a whole.

      None of the new Time-Skip based techniques we see Hit use on Jiren are lethal, though. They're were techniques used for defence and counter attack purposes. We see the kind of deadly Time-Skip influenced attacks that Hit is capable of in Episode 71 and he would not be able to do that kind of shit in the Tournament Of Power, given the tournament has a strict no killing rule. There's nothing really unusual about Hit developing his Time-Skip abilities to fit a more adaptive and tactical purpose knowing what kind of scenario he would be getting in when he was told about the Tournament Of Power and especially after his fights against Goku.
      Hit HAS to get them to either protect him or smash the stage under Jiren, his plan is entirely pointless without either happening. Telling them to leave so Dyspo and Toppo can come in and kick him away, which WILL happen since he's completely exposed while the remaining U11 people are entirely free to move at their leisure. Him telling the U6 Saiyan's to simply fire around the ring to get Jiren out then buzz off if all else fails is WAY smarter and a much better showcase of how Hit needs team mates to help him over Vado's nothing speech near the end. It's a really stupid plan as is.

      I mean retroactively for the U6 tournament, Hit apparently has all this shit lying around then and it's not lethal yet he doesn't use any of it at all against Goku.... Even though the entire point of Goku forfeiting is because Hit can't use everything against him... Which is a load of shit since he clearly can: almost none of his abilities are inherently lethal. It also REALLY stretches out the definition of Time Skip cause making time clones, prisons and alternate dimensions to store time is NOT skipping it.
      Fair enough. I think this is just another one of those cases in Dragon Ball where honour and pride come before reason. Hit specifically wanted to get the job done on his own and didn't want any help and Cabba, Caulifla and Kale respected his demands and went off to take on other fighters. It's nothing really to stress over. The mentality of a martial artists/assassin is very traditional and unusual by our standards.

      What's to say that Hit couldn't do the shit that he did against Jiren against Goku in the Champa arc until he started recruiting fighters and preparing himself for the Tournament Of Power? I mean, we see Hit display a completely new Time-Skip based ability (Intangibility) when he fought Goku again in Episode 71, so he's obviously taken into account that there are formidable warriors that he may come across again and decided to be more innovative with his Time-Skip so that he can be better prepared for potentially intense battles. It's really nothing new. Characters have been creating and expanding their arsenal of abilities and techniques through off-screen means for decades. Hit was just making sure he was ahead of the curve.

      User avatar
      Noah
      Born 'n Bred Here
      Posts: 7454
      Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
      Location: Virtual World

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by Noah » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:08 pm

      TysonWine wrote:Ribrianne coming to the realization that U2 doesn't have what it takes was a good scene. However, her power level inconsistency is starting to become a problem. She went even with 17. Laughed off SSJ Vegeta. Was one shotted out of her transformation by SSBlue Goku, and can no longer keep pace with base Vegeta.


      Really? A problem for who? Mate, don't pretend Super was always consistent with battle powers and stuff:

      - Beerus using 10% of his full power against enraged SSJ2 Vegeta, but KKx10 + SSJB still below Beerus
      - Base Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks, but Goku and presumably Vegeta can turn into SSJ God
      - SSJ Future Trunks keeping up with SSJ Rosé Goku Black
      - Vegeta surpassing Black after spending one month in the RoSaT when the last time he trained in the place, it was 3 years and said he was very close to his limit.
      - #17 keeping up with SSJB Goku who reached the realm of the Gods and trained with deities despite doing nothing besides protecting an island from some poachers.

      At this point everything else is just an add on the list, I don't think people even care about discussing power levels as they did in the beginning.
      Last edited by Noah on Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
      乃亜

      Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

      Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

      User avatar
      Simere
      Advanced Regular
      Posts: 1456
      Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:28 pm

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by Simere » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:08 pm

      Lord Beerus wrote:Fair enough. I think this is just another one of those cases in Dragon Ball where honour and pride come before reason. Hit specifically wanted to get the job done on his own and didn't want any help and Cabba, Caulifla and Kale respected his demands and went off to take on other fighters. It's nothing really to stress over. The mentality of a martial artists/assassin is very traditional and unusual by our standards.
      Personally, I think it was something else entirely. When Hit said "The moment I couldn't end it in one hit, my loss was confirmed" he was referring to the first sneak attack. Therefore, everything else he did, particularly his big speech to the Cabba patch kids, was purely for the sake of rallying their spirits; the only thing he could do to bolster their chances as there was no way out for him.
      CJStriker_CBR wrote:So while the Base Goku Fight was weird to say it in the nicest way, this Fight with Vegeta was far more well defined and executed, leading to what I believe we will see Spider-Man, Simere and Lord Beerus into a New Level of power and hopefully a New Form of Ribrianne too. Only time will tell What and Who is right, but that is my breakdown of this important moment and what might come next from it! :idea: :thumbup:
      It doesn't matter all that much to me how strong she gets; the scene was just weirdly poignant to me. The erasure, or the thought of erasure, of everyone else in this tournament hasn't bothered me. I think it's because everyone's rooting against her, combined with losing faith in herself.

      User avatar
      fadeddreams5
      Born 'n Bred Here
      Posts: 5137
      Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:53 pm
      Location: New York

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by fadeddreams5 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:18 pm

      If Zamasu used the Super Dragon Balls to try to swap bodies with Jiren instead of Goku, the dragon wouldn't be able to because Jiren's power transcends wishes, time, the franchise, Toriyama, logic

      Too strong.
      Last edited by fadeddreams5 on Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
      "Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

      User avatar
      Noah
      Born 'n Bred Here
      Posts: 7454
      Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
      Location: Virtual World

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by Noah » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:18 pm

      ekrolo2 wrote:When I saw the U6 Saiyan's arrive, I made the mortal error of thinking someone besides Freeza would be smart and have Hit tell them to destroy the stand underneath Jiren to ring him out. Then, we'd have a tense battle where Hit has to hold down Jiren, Jiren is paralyzed and has to break free before the U6 Saiyan's send him plummeting to the void all the while Cabba, Kale and Caulifla battle Dypso & Toppo to get to their intended target.

      Just imagine that kind of fight with all these guys blasting and punching everything apart, one side trying to take out Hit, the other Jiren and both of them deadlocked. But like I said, I made the mortal error of assuming Super wouldn't f*** something up.

      Instead of this happening, Hit ACTUALLY thinks he can hold Jiren down until the tournament is over with nobody protecting him to cover up the fact he's a sitting duck. Hell, even having Hit do some actual damage to Jiren that could help Goku out later would've been enough.
      :clap:

      This, so much. I'm glad someone thinks the same way about the scene and Hit characterization in the episode. He was pretty stupid and that whole "assasin's pride" came as excuse for him not ask for the U6 Saiyans help him. Do everyone has to have this "pride" BS for plot convenience? I get it they don't want Jiren to be ring out by anyone than Goku or whatever, but at least play things smart. Don't act like the audience is dumb and couldn't think Hit doing things in another way.
      乃亜

      Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

      Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

      User avatar
      ekrolo2
      Kicks it Old-School
      Posts: 7812
      Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
      Location: Split, Croatia

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:19 pm

      Lord Beerus wrote:Fair enough. I think this is just another one of those cases in Dragon Ball where honour and pride come before reason. Hit specifically wanted to get the job done on his own and didn't want any help and Cabba, Caulifla and Kale respected his demands and went off to take on other fighters. It's nothing really to stress over. The mentality of a martial artists/assassin is very traditional and unusual by our standards.

      What's to say that Hit couldn't do the shit that he did against Jiren against Goku in the Champa arc until he started recruiting fighters and preparing himself for the Tournament Of Power? I mean, we see Hit display a completely new Time-Skip based ability (Intangibility) when he fought Goku again in Episode 71, so he's obviously taken into account that there are formidable warriors that he may come across again and decided to be more innovative with his Time-Skip so that he can be better prepared for potentially intense battles. It's really nothing new. Characters have been creating and expanding their arsenal of abilities and techniques through off-screen means for decades. Hit was just making sure he was ahead of the curve.
      The problem is that Vados' speech is meant to showcase Hit working with people, valuing them as something he cannot succeed in this tournament without. It doesn't work to say that and then say "Well it's generic DB warriortard logic at work!". It's especially dumb since the show is clearly trying to sell this as some brilliant master stratagem but it's not, it's really, really fucking stupid. It's an especially stupid sentiment since Hit can and has helped out several people already in this tournament, he saves Caulifla from getting ringed out, he helps Bergamo take out a U3 guy, he accepts Goku's aid in fighting Dypso,....

      Because the Champa arc says "Hit's got a shit load of killer moves he can't use!" so unless Hit is STILL keeping several techniques at bay, I think we're very clearly supposed to infer to THIS stuff here being the moves exempt from the Champa arc. Which is really stupid since they're not lethal at all. Even the ranged attack that's dangerous can get used non-lethally. Nevermind the fact it's impossible for me to buy that Hit is apparently strong enough to be in Blue tier but up until recently he's NEVER improved his time manipulation powers.
      When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

      How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

      User avatar
      Asura
      I'm pretty cozy, here...
      Posts: 1919
      Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by Asura » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:28 pm

      Breaking the ground would have done nothing. Jiren would have easily just put up a barrier in the area around him or easily break free and then KO both Hit, the Saiyans, AND Goku if he decided to lend a hand. All Hit could hope to do was to freeze him until the end of the tournament, but even that didn't work since Jiren "transcends time" or some shit.

      Like, if anything has been shown to us about Jiren so far is that he is immensely and insanely powerful, there is nothing else to him so it's kind of hard to miss just how powerful he is. Do you really think someone of his caliber would get KOed by having the floor break from underneath him?

      Hit using new abilities doesn't surprise or infurirate me like some people. It was said on more than one occasion that Hit has a lot of abilities he's never shown so I don't see what the problem is, especially when it's an ability like Roshi's where he has to sit there to freeze his enemy and can't do anything else. Really there's no one he would ever use that on except a monster like Jiren, so it makes sense that we've never seen it before.

      Freezerbaby
      Beyond Newbie
      Posts: 135
      Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:41 am

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by Freezerbaby » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:46 pm

      jplaya2023 wrote:i like the episode but i didn't like the episode.

      Why didn't hit tell his kids to knock jiren off when he had him trapped.

      Also in the pre tournament hit was said to grow stronger the stronger the opponent is so he could've improved time skipped until it overwhelmed jiren.

      Why didn't goku use IT to save hit? That isn't flying. Seems like they needed him eliminated in this tournament because of his hax..
      That´s three thoughts are exactly what came to mind, why nobody took advantage of Jiren being trapped, why Hit didn´t improve his time-skip technique to a one second time-skipped or something and why Goku didn´t save Hit by using IT, I likes the episode but to think that Hit is out leaving Jiren unscathed is something neither I expected nor liked it. I´m pretty sure Universe 6 is next to be erased within two episodes, tops.

      User avatar
      Lord Frieza
      I Live Here
      Posts: 3698
      Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:36 pm

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:53 pm

      If I had to reason why they didn't help Hit, and this is just hypothasising, it may be because of Hit's control or lack there of in the situastion.

      Going by his words during their battle, Hit says that the hits he's taking are like the ones Goku did. So that suggests Jiren is back down to the level he was using befor Goku got his new power. And even at that heavely supressed level its taking everything Hit's got to try and keep Jiren locked down and Jiren is still slowly breaking free. Hit may have feareds how Jiren would have reacted to their attampt to ring him out. If Jiren got serues, powered up in desperastion and broke free then all of them would be in danger of a ring out, and while losing Hit alone is a pretty sour blow, losing all four of them in one fell swoop would be a disaster. Hit may have though it better to risk himself in a high stakes gabbit rathern then put his whole team's chances of winning on the line. Even without him, if they still have more fighters at the end they can win.

      Of course its all speculastion as there's no way to tell how things would have played out.

      User avatar
      PerhapsTheOtherOne
      I Live Here
      Posts: 2026
      Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:58 pm

      After reading some other comments, I have to ask......

      Why are people claiming that Hit was trying to lock Jiren down in frozen timespace for the whole tournament? That's NOT what his gambit was. We clearly see that he was preparing an attack to try and take out Jiren in one shot as he was time-locked. Once that plan was dashed, Hit had nothing left and was eliminated by Jiren.

      User avatar
      fadeddreams5
      Born 'n Bred Here
      Posts: 5137
      Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:53 pm
      Location: New York

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by fadeddreams5 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:11 pm

      PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:After reading some other comments, I have to ask......

      Why are people claiming that Hit was trying to lock Jiren down in frozen timespace for the whole tournament? That's NOT what his gambit was. We clearly see that he was preparing an attack to try and take out Jiren in one shot as he was time-locked. Once that plan was dashed, Hit had nothing left and was eliminated by Jiren.
      He tells himself at one point that his power won't last long enough to keep him frozen "until the end," implying his original plan was to keep him frozen. When he sees he's not able to, then he puts everything into one attack to finish him off.
      "Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

      User avatar
      Noah
      Born 'n Bred Here
      Posts: 7454
      Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
      Location: Virtual World

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by Noah » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:12 pm

      PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Why are people claiming that Hit was trying to lock Jiren down in frozen timespace for the whole tournament? That's NOT what his gambit was. We clearly see that he was preparing an attack to try and take out Jiren in one shot as he was time-locked. Once that plan was dashed, Hit had nothing left and was eliminated by Jiren.
      What attack? He was just standing there until Jiren finally broke free. He could have asked the Saiyans to attack Jiren or even destroy the ground beneath him.
      乃亜

      Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

      Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

      User avatar
      Lord Beerus
      Namekian Warrior
      Posts: 20535
      Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
      Location: A temple on a giant tree
      Contact:

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:18 pm

      ekrolo2 wrote:
      Lord Beerus wrote:Fair enough. I think this is just another one of those cases in Dragon Ball where honour and pride come before reason. Hit specifically wanted to get the job done on his own and didn't want any help and Cabba, Caulifla and Kale respected his demands and went off to take on other fighters. It's nothing really to stress over. The mentality of a martial artists/assassin is very traditional and unusual by our standards.

      What's to say that Hit couldn't do the shit that he did against Jiren against Goku in the Champa arc until he started recruiting fighters and preparing himself for the Tournament Of Power? I mean, we see Hit display a completely new Time-Skip based ability (Intangibility) when he fought Goku again in Episode 71, so he's obviously taken into account that there are formidable warriors that he may come across again and decided to be more innovative with his Time-Skip so that he can be better prepared for potentially intense battles. It's really nothing new. Characters have been creating and expanding their arsenal of abilities and techniques through off-screen means for decades. Hit was just making sure he was ahead of the curve.
      The problem is that Vados' speech is meant to showcase Hit working with people, valuing them as something he cannot succeed in this tournament without. It doesn't work to say that and then say "Well it's generic DB warriortard logic at work!". It's especially dumb since the show is clearly trying to sell this as some brilliant master stratagem but it's not, it's really, really fucking stupid. It's an especially stupid sentiment since Hit can and has helped out several people already in this tournament, he saves Caulifla from getting ringed out, he helps Bergamo take out a U3 guy, he accepts Goku's aid in fighting Dypso,....

      Because the Champa arc says "Hit's got a shit load of killer moves he can't use!" so unless Hit is STILL keeping several techniques at bay, I think we're very clearly supposed to infer to THIS stuff here being the moves exempt from the Champa arc. Which is really stupid since they're not lethal at all. Even the ranged attack that's dangerous can get used non-lethally. Nevermind the fact it's impossible for me to buy that Hit is apparently strong enough to be in Blue tier but up until recently he's NEVER improved his time manipulation powers.
      Hit had already resigned that he was fighting a losing battle when he took on Jiren. Hit says himself that the moment he couldn't end the fight in one hit, he was doomed to lose. He didn't want to drag down any other person along with him when he knew that was the case. Hit could help other people in the tournament because Jiren hadn't truly interjected himself into the tournament battle yet and hadn't made himself a figure of intimidation with how he fought against Goku.

      The keyword in that statement is "killer". As in, technique(s) used to kill an opponent. Not in the context of "killer" as in "awesome" or "cool". Because by all means, Hit would have used those techniques. But he didn't because had developed them yet. And given the context of that statement, and what we know about tournament based rules in Dragon Ball, it's obviously referring the techniques that Hit uses as an assassin to kill his targets. And we've seen just the type of killing technique Hit can incorporate into battle or when he's doing his job. The techniques he performed against Jiren can't be classified as "killer" techniques because those techniques were used for more defensive, counterattack and evasive reasons in battle as supposed to being techniques used to kill an opponent. Which Hit isn't allowed to do in either tournament in the Champa arc or the Universal Survival arc.

      User avatar
      PerhapsTheOtherOne
      I Live Here
      Posts: 2026
      Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:21 pm

      Noah wrote:
      PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Why are people claiming that Hit was trying to lock Jiren down in frozen timespace for the whole tournament? That's NOT what his gambit was. We clearly see that he was preparing an attack to try and take out Jiren in one shot as he was time-locked. Once that plan was dashed, Hit had nothing left and was eliminated by Jiren.
      What attack? He was just standing there until Jiren finally broke free. He could have asked the Saiyans to attack Jiren or even destroy the ground beneath him.
      Okay, rewatched the episode. At first, his goal was to keep Jiren frozen till the end. That part, I misremembered.

      However, once it becomes clear that Jiren is overpowering his time-lock, Hit decides to put all his power into one last strike to defeat Jiren, a gamble that he himself notes he'd ordinarily never take. That part, I got right.

      Kishido
      Banned
      Posts: 1553
      Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:57 am

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by Kishido » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:31 pm

      I'm sorry to say... But the figthers are just fucking stupid.

      Hit is stopping Jiren for some moment. Instead of just kicking him out... They are staying there doing nothing... Not talking about Cabba and Co cuz Hit told them to leave... But the other universes and Goku included who was right next to it.

      Hell they could have even kicked out Hit as well

      User avatar
      Torturephile
      Regular
      Posts: 567
      Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:13 pm

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by Torturephile » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:36 pm

      Kishido wrote:I'm sorry to say... But the figthers are just fucking stupid.

      Hit is stopping Jiren for some moment. Instead of just kicking him out... They are staying there doing nothing... Not talking about Cabba and Co cuz Hit told them to leave... But the other universes and Goku included who was right next to it.

      Hell they could have even kicked out Hit as well
      Most of them are nothing to even Hit, and Goku isn't fully recovered.
      From Super episode 113 thread:
      MaskedRider wrote:
      Torturephile wrote:
      hunduel wrote:I liked this episode. I seriously don't know why people hate it.
      namekiansaiyan wrote:I seriously don't see why some of you like this episode when nothing happened and was basically filler.
      The fandom in a nutshell.
      The duality of man.

      User avatar
      ekrolo2
      Kicks it Old-School
      Posts: 7812
      Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
      Location: Split, Croatia

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:40 pm

      Lord Beerus wrote:
      ekrolo2 wrote:
      Lord Beerus wrote:Fair enough. I think this is just another one of those cases in Dragon Ball where honour and pride come before reason. Hit specifically wanted to get the job done on his own and didn't want any help and Cabba, Caulifla and Kale respected his demands and went off to take on other fighters. It's nothing really to stress over. The mentality of a martial artists/assassin is very traditional and unusual by our standards.

      What's to say that Hit couldn't do the shit that he did against Jiren against Goku in the Champa arc until he started recruiting fighters and preparing himself for the Tournament Of Power? I mean, we see Hit display a completely new Time-Skip based ability (Intangibility) when he fought Goku again in Episode 71, so he's obviously taken into account that there are formidable warriors that he may come across again and decided to be more innovative with his Time-Skip so that he can be better prepared for potentially intense battles. It's really nothing new. Characters have been creating and expanding their arsenal of abilities and techniques through off-screen means for decades. Hit was just making sure he was ahead of the curve.
      The problem is that Vados' speech is meant to showcase Hit working with people, valuing them as something he cannot succeed in this tournament without. It doesn't work to say that and then say "Well it's generic DB warriortard logic at work!". It's especially dumb since the show is clearly trying to sell this as some brilliant master stratagem but it's not, it's really, really fucking stupid. It's an especially stupid sentiment since Hit can and has helped out several people already in this tournament, he saves Caulifla from getting ringed out, he helps Bergamo take out a U3 guy, he accepts Goku's aid in fighting Dypso,....

      Because the Champa arc says "Hit's got a shit load of killer moves he can't use!" so unless Hit is STILL keeping several techniques at bay, I think we're very clearly supposed to infer to THIS stuff here being the moves exempt from the Champa arc. Which is really stupid since they're not lethal at all. Even the ranged attack that's dangerous can get used non-lethally. Nevermind the fact it's impossible for me to buy that Hit is apparently strong enough to be in Blue tier but up until recently he's NEVER improved his time manipulation powers.
      Hit had already resigned that he was fighting a losing battle when he took on Jiren. Hit says himself that the moment he couldn't end the fight in one hit, he was doomed to lose. He didn't want to drag down any other person along with him when he knew that was the case. Hit could help other people in the tournament because Jiren hadn't truly interjected himself into the tournament battle yet and hadn't made himself a figure of intimidation with how he fought against Goku.

      The keyword in that statement is "killer". As in, technique(s) used to kill an opponent. Not in the context of "killer" as in "awesome" or "cool". Because by all means, Hit would have used those techniques. But he didn't because had developed them yet. And given the context of that statement, and what we know about tournament based rules in Dragon Ball, it's obviously referring the techniques that Hit uses as an assassin to kill his targets. And we've seen just the type of killing technique Hit can incorporate into battle or when he's doing his job. The techniques he performed against Jiren can't be classified as "killer" techniques because those techniques were used for more defensive, counterattack and evasive reasons in battle as supposed to being techniques used to kill an opponent. Which Hit isn't allowed to do in either tournament in the Champa arc or the Universal Survival arc.
      He says he was doomed to lose when his last resort attack failed, not beforehand. Before that he has Jiren vulnerable and alone and with a simple smashing of the aforementioned stage, he could have very easily ringed Jiren out and made the ToP infinitely more winnable for U6. It literally makes no sense for a scene meant to showcase Hit's smarts & realization that he needs other people to paint him as an idiot and a lone wolf who ignores good tactical judgment.

      Making phantom time clones or sealing someone in a time prison is by no mean a 100% lethal move, nor is him firing the various ranged attacks against Goku and Jiren. When they fight in the 70s episodes, Goku tells him they can go all out this time around and when they do, Hit showcases the very same techniques he has in the ToP, meaning they're moves he already had before but didn't use them because reasons.
      When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

      How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

      Kishido
      Banned
      Posts: 1553
      Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:57 am

      Re: Super Episode 111 (15 October 2017)

      Post by Kishido » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:42 pm

      Torturephile wrote:
      Kishido wrote:I'm sorry to say... But the figthers are just fucking stupid.

      Hit is stopping Jiren for some moment. Instead of just kicking him out... They are staying there doing nothing... Not talking about Cabba and Co cuz Hit told them to leave... But the other universes and Goku included who was right next to it.

      Hell they could have even kicked out Hit as well
      Most of them are nothing to even Hit, and Goku isn't fully recovered.
      And that explains nothing. They still could use the chance to try it like the 2 guys tried after Jiren went on hiatus.

      It was the best chance ever... But nope everyone is watching

      Post Reply