Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by MajinMan » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:11 pm

I like Caulifla. Sure, she's not the best character by any means, but she's at least better than boring ass Cabba. Cabba's that one guy from school you see on the street and go, "Hey Cabba, how you doin'? That's nice to hear, I'm good too. Alright, see you later bro, I got to get going." Caulifla is much more interesting with her thugish attitude and overconfidence.

Her power ups so far are fine. WHY does she need to "earn" Super Saiyan? Do you guys know how outdated that transformation is? It appeared 7 arcs ago, and the Buu arc finally put the nail in the coffin. Once Goten and Trunks, one being 7 and the other being 8, got it without any sort of development or care in the world, the form lost all "importance." I see people say Caulifla getting it ruined Goku's experience on Namek, and it baffles my mind as to how that's even possible or logical. It ruined nothing. One character getting a form that is extremely outdated to the point that there are FOUR levels above it now does not "ruin" anything that has happened in the past. Then she got SS2, which is somewhat justifiable. Why not give her two forms, and then have her work for the rest? She's still THREE transformations away from what Goku and Vegeta have.

Her getting Super Saiyan 2 on accident is a bit if a stretch, I agree, but at the same time the story went out of its way to say that she has extreme levels of potential as a warrior, even for Universe 6 Saiyans standards. We all knew Cabba was extremely strong because he got selected as a member of team U6 in the first tournament. For this tournament, Cabba went to recruit his squad leader or whatever because he was probably one of the stronger Saiyans he knew. The squad leader then says that his sister is stronger than he is, and that she still has a lot of potential. Everything was already explained to the audience as to why she is so strong. So her getting it on accident and then learning what it is from Goku himself is totally understandable.

Is it supposed to replicate what our main cast has went through on their journey to get stronger? No, and it's not SUPPOSED to. They're different, and they have different things they need to overcome, just like how Caulifla had to slowly learn how to actually fight in episode 113 rather than just blindly throwing punches and relying on her strength alone. You don't have to like her, but screaming out "bad writing," "asspull," or "mary sue" doesn't make you sound smarter or more intelligent than everyone who does enjoy this character. If you THINK it's bad writing or whatever, then that's fine. I gave my reasons as to why I don't think it is, but if you still disagree, all the power to you. But if you use those words in order to boost yourself onto some "higher plateau," while calling calling everyone else an idiot, then you should reevaluate what you're actually saying.
Timetraveller wrote:They're mostly disliked from my experience. Most of the people who like them are the the hardcore anime nerds (for different reasons) and the female audience who just want a strong female character in the show regardless of how they get their strength. Then there's everyone else who can't look past the non-stop asspulls, the poor writing and characterization and the fact that they serve as nothing more than advertisements for merchandise

This is what I'm talking about. Timetraveller, I don't know if you said it on purpose or not, but you're basically saying that everyone who likes these characters are hardcore "anime nerds" and retarded, while everyone who does not like them are intelligent savants.

And finally onto Kale. Kale is strange because her intial character before she transforms isn't that terrible, but when she becomes Broly, it all falls apart for me. The Broly schtick seems to be less of a focus now, which is good, but she still looks exactly like Broly when she goes "Berserk." It throws me off every time I see it, and based off the preview for 114, there's a slight chance that they're going to do away with the no pupils, raging Broly form and have a more controlled version of it instead, which I'm all for. Even then though, I won't really care for her character that much, unless something drastic changes about her.

Overall I think Caulifla is enjoyable, and Kale is a mess. And to answer the question for the topic, you could say that the (internet) fanbase is pretty divided on them.
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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by RedHeat » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:36 pm

snpaa wrote:I personally don't believe they are , I've never been given any empirical data that proves they are in fact popular. I think some people may be misinterpreting the marketing push for them as popularity .
Same can be said about them being not popular. I mentioned this earlier, but you're never going to know one way or other in regards to a certain characters popularity besides the mainstays.
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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by precita » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:49 pm

It's easy to tell they're popular because besides Hit, they've quickly become the most popular U6 characters.

Most find Cabba dull, Frost just feels redundant with Freeza around, Botamo has no real personality and neither does Magetta even though their designs are cool. And we just haven't seen enough of the Nameks to judge.

Besides that, as I said who is popular in this arc? Toppo is preferred over Jiren and the rest of the Pride Troopers are a non-entity. The Trio de Dangers made more of an impact on people and they were for an exhibition arc.

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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by Benedetto12 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:56 pm

I don´t really like any of the two, but i don´t hate them neither, they are really forcing them onto us, especially Caulifla, on the good side they are something we were waiting for long, female saiyans and are unique in some way, Kale more than Caulifla, but they feel forced right now.

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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by majinwarman » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:07 pm

MajinMan wrote:I like Caulifla. Sure, she's not the best character by any means, but she's at least better than boring ass Cabba. Cabba's that one guy from school you see on the street and go, "Hey Cabba, how you doin'? That's nice to hear, I'm good too. Alright, see you later bro, I got to get going." Caulifla is much more interesting with her thugish attitude and overconfidence.

Her power ups so far are fine. WHY does she need to "earn" Super Saiyan? Do you guys know how outdated that transformation is? It appeared 7 arcs ago, and the Buu arc finally put the nail in the coffin. Once Goten and Trunks, one being 7 and the other being 8, got it without any sort of development or care in the world, the form lost all "importance." I see people say Caulifla getting it ruined Goku's experience on Namek, and it baffles my mind as to how that's even possible or logical. It ruined nothing. One character getting a form that is extremely outdated to the point that there are FOUR levels above it now does not "ruin" anything that has happened in the past. Then she got SS2, which is somewhat justifiable. Why not give her two forms, and then have her work for the rest? She's still THREE transformations away from what Goku and Vegeta have.

Her getting Super Saiyan 2 on accident is a bit if a stretch, I agree, but at the same time the story went out of its way to say that she has extreme levels of potential as a warrior, even for Universe 6 Saiyans standards. We all knew Cabba was extremely strong because he got selected as a member of team U6 in the first tournament. For this tournament, Cabba went to recruit his squad leader or whatever because he was probably one of the stronger Saiyans he knew. The squad leader then says that his sister is stronger than he is, and that she still has a lot of potential. Everything was already explained to the audience as to why she is so strong. So her getting it on accident and then learning what it is from Goku himself is totally understandable.

Is it supposed to replicate what our main cast has went through on their journey to get stronger? No, and it's not SUPPOSED to. They're different, and they have different things they need to overcome, just like how Caulifla had to slowly learn how to actually fight in episode 113 rather than just blindly throwing punches and relying on her strength alone. You don't have to like her, but screaming out "bad writing," "asspull," or "mary sue" doesn't make you sound smarter or more intelligent than everyone who does enjoy this character. If you THINK it's bad writing or whatever, then that's fine. I gave my reasons as to why I don't think it is, but if you still disagree, all the power to you. But if you use those words in order to boost yourself onto some "higher plateau," while calling calling everyone else an idiot, then you should reevaluate what you're actually saying.
Timetraveller wrote:They're mostly disliked from my experience. Most of the people who like them are the the hardcore anime nerds (for different reasons) and the female audience who just want a strong female character in the show regardless of how they get their strength. Then there's everyone else who can't look past the non-stop asspulls, the poor writing and characterization and the fact that they serve as nothing more than advertisements for merchandise

This is what I'm talking about. Timetraveller, I don't know if you said it on purpose or not, but you're basically saying that everyone who likes these characters are hardcore "anime nerds" and retarded, while everyone who does not like them are intelligent savants.

And finally onto Kale. Kale is strange because her intial character before she transforms isn't that terrible, but when she becomes Broly, it all falls apart for me. The Broly schtick seems to be less of a focus now, which is good, but she still looks exactly like Broly when she goes "Berserk." It throws me off every time I see it, and based off the preview for 114, there's a slight chance that they're going to do away with the no pupils, raging Broly form and have a more controlled version of it instead, which I'm all for. Even then though, I won't really care for her character that much, unless something drastic changes about her.

Overall I think Caulifla is enjoyable, and Kale is a mess. And to answer the question for the topic, you could say that the (internet) fanbase is pretty divided on them.
Dang you and I had the exact same thoughts on these two characters.
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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by snpaa » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:06 pm

RedHeat wrote:
snpaa wrote:I personally don't believe they are , I've never been given any empirical data that proves they are in fact popular. I think some people may be misinterpreting the marketing push for them as popularity .
Same can be said about them being not popular. I mentioned this earlier, but you're never going to know one way or other in regards to a certain characters popularity besides the mainstays.
Not really , you can make an educated guess that relatively new characters with next to no development aren't as nearly anywhere as popular as characters like vegeta and goku. unless empirical data is shown that they are popular , it's safe to assume that they are aren't , just like it's safe to assume that toppo, and cabba aren't popular as well.

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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by precita » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:24 pm

If they become canon lesbians most likely their popularity will skyrocket especially in the Japanese fandom. They love yuri anime ships and it would be exactly what the fans want.

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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by Asura » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:04 am

precita wrote:If they become canon lesbians most likely their popularity will skyrocket especially in the Japanese fandom. They love yuri anime ships and it would be exactly what the fans want.
A sad day when people give more of a shit about homosexual romances in a fighting anime then like, actual fighting and martial arts and stuff.

That goes for heterosexual romances too, really. Dragon Ball has never been a show with any real romance in it. Gohan and Videl are the closest it gets and even then it's barely there.

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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by gofishus » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:07 pm

MajinMan wrote:I like Caulifla. Sure, she's not the best character by any means, but she's at least better than boring ass Cabba. Cabba's that one guy from school you see on the street and go, "Hey Cabba, how you doin'? That's nice to hear, I'm good too. Alright, see you later bro, I got to get going." Caulifla is much more interesting with her thugish attitude and overconfidence.

Her power ups so far are fine. WHY does she need to "earn" Super Saiyan? Do you guys know how outdated that transformation is? It appeared 7 arcs ago, and the Buu arc finally put the nail in the coffin. Once Goten and Trunks, one being 7 and the other being 8, got it without any sort of development or care in the world, the form lost all "importance." I see people say Caulifla getting it ruined Goku's experience on Namek, and it baffles my mind as to how that's even possible or logical. It ruined nothing. One character getting a form that is extremely outdated to the point that there are FOUR levels above it now does not "ruin" anything that has happened in the past. Then she got SS2, which is somewhat justifiable. Why not give her two forms, and then have her work for the rest? She's still THREE transformations away from what Goku and Vegeta have.

Her getting Super Saiyan 2 on accident is a bit if a stretch, I agree, but at the same time the story went out of its way to say that she has extreme levels of potential as a warrior, even for Universe 6 Saiyans standards. We all knew Cabba was extremely strong because he got selected as a member of team U6 in the first tournament. For this tournament, Cabba went to recruit his squad leader or whatever because he was probably one of the stronger Saiyans he knew. The squad leader then says that his sister is stronger than he is, and that she still has a lot of potential. Everything was already explained to the audience as to why she is so strong. So her getting it on accident and then learning what it is from Goku himself is totally understandable.

Is it supposed to replicate what our main cast has went through on their journey to get stronger? No, and it's not SUPPOSED to. They're different, and they have different things they need to overcome, just like how Caulifla had to slowly learn how to actually fight in episode 113 rather than just blindly throwing punches and relying on her strength alone. You don't have to like her, but screaming out "bad writing," "asspull," or "mary sue" doesn't make you sound smarter or more intelligent than everyone who does enjoy this character. If you THINK it's bad writing or whatever, then that's fine. I gave my reasons as to why I don't think it is, but if you still disagree, all the power to you. But if you use those words in order to boost yourself onto some "higher plateau," while calling calling everyone else an idiot, then you should reevaluate what you're actually saying.
Timetraveller wrote:They're mostly disliked from my experience. Most of the people who like them are the the hardcore anime nerds (for different reasons) and the female audience who just want a strong female character in the show regardless of how they get their strength. Then there's everyone else who can't look past the non-stop asspulls, the poor writing and characterization and the fact that they serve as nothing more than advertisements for merchandise

This is what I'm talking about. Timetraveller, I don't know if you said it on purpose or not, but you're basically saying that everyone who likes these characters are hardcore "anime nerds" and retarded, while everyone who does not like them are intelligent savants.

And finally onto Kale. Kale is strange because her intial character before she transforms isn't that terrible, but when she becomes Broly, it all falls apart for me. The Broly schtick seems to be less of a focus now, which is good, but she still looks exactly like Broly when she goes "Berserk." It throws me off every time I see it, and based off the preview for 114, there's a slight chance that they're going to do away with the no pupils, raging Broly form and have a more controlled version of it instead, which I'm all for. Even then though, I won't really care for her character that much, unless something drastic changes about her.

Overall I think Caulifla is enjoyable, and Kale is a mess. And to answer the question for the topic, you could say that the (internet) fanbase is pretty divided on them.
I don't have a problem with Caulifla getting SSJ and SSJ2, its how she got it that turns me off. One, the tingly back and two, getting SSJ2 in midair while deflecting a blast. I mean cmon! Have some kind of plot that requires her to get angry or something! Like Cabba for example at least had to be taunted to get SSJ1 and SSJ2. Caulifla doesn't seem to need anger in any sort of way to transform she just transforms into a new form just whenever she wants to and that really gets me.

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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by gofishus » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:07 pm

MajinMan wrote:I like Caulifla. Sure, she's not the best character by any means, but she's at least better than boring ass Cabba. Cabba's that one guy from school you see on the street and go, "Hey Cabba, how you doin'? That's nice to hear, I'm good too. Alright, see you later bro, I got to get going." Caulifla is much more interesting with her thugish attitude and overconfidence.

Her power ups so far are fine. WHY does she need to "earn" Super Saiyan? Do you guys know how outdated that transformation is? It appeared 7 arcs ago, and the Buu arc finally put the nail in the coffin. Once Goten and Trunks, one being 7 and the other being 8, got it without any sort of development or care in the world, the form lost all "importance." I see people say Caulifla getting it ruined Goku's experience on Namek, and it baffles my mind as to how that's even possible or logical. It ruined nothing. One character getting a form that is extremely outdated to the point that there are FOUR levels above it now does not "ruin" anything that has happened in the past. Then she got SS2, which is somewhat justifiable. Why not give her two forms, and then have her work for the rest? She's still THREE transformations away from what Goku and Vegeta have.

Her getting Super Saiyan 2 on accident is a bit if a stretch, I agree, but at the same time the story went out of its way to say that she has extreme levels of potential as a warrior, even for Universe 6 Saiyans standards. We all knew Cabba was extremely strong because he got selected as a member of team U6 in the first tournament. For this tournament, Cabba went to recruit his squad leader or whatever because he was probably one of the stronger Saiyans he knew. The squad leader then says that his sister is stronger than he is, and that she still has a lot of potential. Everything was already explained to the audience as to why she is so strong. So her getting it on accident and then learning what it is from Goku himself is totally understandable.

Is it supposed to replicate what our main cast has went through on their journey to get stronger? No, and it's not SUPPOSED to. They're different, and they have different things they need to overcome, just like how Caulifla had to slowly learn how to actually fight in episode 113 rather than just blindly throwing punches and relying on her strength alone. You don't have to like her, but screaming out "bad writing," "asspull," or "mary sue" doesn't make you sound smarter or more intelligent than everyone who does enjoy this character. If you THINK it's bad writing or whatever, then that's fine. I gave my reasons as to why I don't think it is, but if you still disagree, all the power to you. But if you use those words in order to boost yourself onto some "higher plateau," while calling calling everyone else an idiot, then you should reevaluate what you're actually saying.
Timetraveller wrote:They're mostly disliked from my experience. Most of the people who like them are the the hardcore anime nerds (for different reasons) and the female audience who just want a strong female character in the show regardless of how they get their strength. Then there's everyone else who can't look past the non-stop asspulls, the poor writing and characterization and the fact that they serve as nothing more than advertisements for merchandise

This is what I'm talking about. Timetraveller, I don't know if you said it on purpose or not, but you're basically saying that everyone who likes these characters are hardcore "anime nerds" and retarded, while everyone who does not like them are intelligent savants.

And finally onto Kale. Kale is strange because her intial character before she transforms isn't that terrible, but when she becomes Broly, it all falls apart for me. The Broly schtick seems to be less of a focus now, which is good, but she still looks exactly like Broly when she goes "Berserk." It throws me off every time I see it, and based off the preview for 114, there's a slight chance that they're going to do away with the no pupils, raging Broly form and have a more controlled version of it instead, which I'm all for. Even then though, I won't really care for her character that much, unless something drastic changes about her.

Overall I think Caulifla is enjoyable, and Kale is a mess. And to answer the question for the topic, you could say that the (internet) fanbase is pretty divided on them.
I don't have a problem with Caulifla getting SSJ and SSJ2, its how she got it that turns me off. One, the tingly back and two, getting SSJ2 in midair while deflecting a blast. I mean cmon! Have some kind of plot that requires her to get angry or something! Like Cabba for example at least had to be taunted to get SSJ1 and SSJ2. Caulifla doesn't seem to need anger in any sort of way to transform she just transforms into a new form just whenever she wants to and that really gets me.

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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:48 pm

gofishus wrote:I don't have a problem with Caulifla getting SSJ and SSJ2, its how she got it that turns me off. One, the tingly back and two, getting SSJ2 in midair while deflecting a blast. I mean cmon! Have some kind of plot that requires her to get angry or something! Like Cabba for example at least had to be taunted to get SSJ1 and SSJ2. Caulifla doesn't seem to need anger in any sort of way to transform she just transforms into a new form just whenever she wants to and that really gets me.
Caulifla is stated to have a greater potential compared to a Saiyan that, from Cabba's perspective, was one of the strongest people in his universe, or at least, he had fought along side with. So it really shouldn't be much of shock that she can pick up abilities and techniques faster than normal if she has the right incentive and teaching. She's basically U6 version of Son Goku. Once Cabba explained to her how to channel the strength required to become a Super Saiyan, without getting angry, she just needed to power up once into the form before she got the knack of it and could power up innately afterward. It can be stated to be the same deal with how she became a SSJ2. She just tapped into more strength and powered up more.

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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by Asura » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:46 pm

I am curious if anyone has ever done polls on the popularity of these characters, or the popularity of the new characters in the ToP in general.

I would love to help put an end to the "everyone and their mother hates Caulifla and Kale and all Dragon Ball fans are a collective hivemind that hates them and if you don't think 95% of the fanbase hates them you're wrong" mentality that I see being commented around sometimes on other sites.

They're no doubt controversial, I just have a very hard time believing that the "vast majority" of the fanbase hates them.

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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by RedHeat » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:57 pm

Asura wrote:I am curious if anyone has ever done polls on the popularity of these characters, or the popularity of the new characters in the ToP in general.

I would love to help put an end to the "everyone and their mother hates Caulifla and Kale and all Dragon Ball fans are a collective hivemind that hates them and if you don't think 95% of the fanbase hates them you're wrong" mentality that I see being commented around sometimes on other sites.

They're no doubt controversial, I just have a very hard time believing that the "vast majority" of the fanbase hates them.
We'll probably get something like a "top 10" poll like what happened a while ago, after the Tournament is over with. But I seriously doubt brand-new characters will rank that high--though, Hit managed to make it I think.
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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by Zagacious » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:45 pm

From what I've seen they are 'okay' characters, there really hasn't been much shown about their personalities even after they've been in like 10 episodes I think that's one of the main reasons people don't like them. If there would have been some sort of flashbacks to them training or fighting in U6 it would help a lot for building up their transformations like Caulifla SS2 instead of just getting it quickly after a short sparring match.

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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by precita » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:02 pm

The reason we know they're popular is this:

Let's rephrase the question, aside from Caulifa/Kale, who are the most popular new characters in this current arc? Other than maybe Toppo, none of the new characters seemed to gain much of a fanbase. Many of the fighters just get short fights and "Hi and then bye" screentime and are knocked out quickly.

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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by pacz360 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:44 pm

Asura wrote:
MozillaVulpix wrote:I don't really like Kale because I never really feel her motivations and personality make complete sense. If she's timid and has a lack of self-esteem, why is she in a gang? If she's scared of fighting, why does she choose to fight in a tournament? If she can control her berserk form in 101, why doesn't she use it all the time? What even is her berserk form in the first place? Is she actually gay for Caulifla, or is it just subtext?

She's most likely in a gang because Caulifla is in a gang. Caulifla is like an older sister to her, and I'm guessing Caulifla probably found her alone somewhere and picked her up, thus she follows Caulifla wherever she goes. She didn't really choose to fight in the tournament, it was more or less Caulifla's going so she'll go too. In regards to the berserk form, we haven't even seen her since 101 so when would she be using it? As for what the form is, I couldn't tell you, and I'm willing to bet TOEI or Toriyama can't either. I don't think she's gay for Caulifla, she just has intense admiration for her. I'm willing to bet Kale had a very troubled past and Caulifla saved her from it and made her her prodigy, hence she looks up to and admires Caulifla ever since.

A question to people who hated Caulifla and Kale first but now like them, what changed for you that made you start liking them? I liked them from the beginning so I'm curious to know when most people changed their minds about them.
Pretty much to me caulifla is okay/descent
And kale is a mess having her being a Broly clone and her throwing a fit just because someone was talking to her big sis
Though 113 made me like her more along with caulifla as they stop rushing there development they'll be fine

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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by pacz360 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:47 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Verse wrote:Tumblr (a community of individuals with diverse views) likes most strong females. Not a great way to measure your like or dislike of something.
a lot of people on tumblr also seem to like them because they're "gay and in love."
Even though they aren't (kale just looks at caulifla as her big sis ) tumblr thinks that way for everyone voltron is an example where Lance and Keith gets shipped like crazy despite neither showing interest in each other

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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by pacz360 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:50 pm

snpaa wrote:I personally don't believe they are , I've never been given any empirical data that proves they are in fact popular. I think some people may be misinterpreting the marketing push for them as popularity .
someone check the threads in Japan and said the fans reaction to the girls are similar to here in the west

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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by Torturephile » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:18 pm

pacz360 wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Verse wrote:Tumblr (a community of individuals with diverse views) likes most strong females. Not a great way to measure your like or dislike of something.
a lot of people on tumblr also seem to like them because they're "gay and in love."
Even though they aren't (kale just looks at caulifla as her big sis ) tumblr thinks that way for everyone voltron is an example where Lance and Keith gets shipped like crazy despite neither showing interest in each other
It's Tumblr, what do you expect?
From Super episode 113 thread:
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Torturephile wrote:
hunduel wrote:I liked this episode. I seriously don't know why people hate it.
namekiansaiyan wrote:I seriously don't see why some of you like this episode when nothing happened and was basically filler.
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Re: Are Caulifa and Kale popular characters? What is the general consensus?

Post by Acetona » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:08 am

Caulifla is a fun character, I won't lie. But her constant learning of Super Saiyan Forms in like 2~3 days is stupid and make me dislike her more than I would like her if she was, for example, introduced the same time Cabba was. I think the timing she appeared plus the plot needing her to be strong ruined her.

But Kale... oh my God. She's beyond terrible. I mean, Broly was already a terrible tier character, and the we get a genderswap version of him just because they can't canonize him. Like, seriously? I doubt this was Toriyama's idea, it must be more of Toyotaro's stupid fanservice-driven ideas, like Vegetto Blue and that Potara retcon.

I really wish Super was a pure Toriyama product now that I know that Toyotaro is playing a big role on the general plot.
キミもテイマーをめざせ!

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