DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

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Amir
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DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Amir » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:47 pm

Do you actually believe that claim is true? Do you think Z had less repeated frames and more interesting choreography with martial arts moves constantly?
I think not even close. But it seems that this is what everyone thinks. I am 100% sure Super has more sequences of well choreographed fights. What do you think?

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Totamo » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:08 pm

Isn't z mostly known for having a ton of gif fights and lots of screaming?

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Jigurashi » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:44 pm

I'd say on average Z's fights were a bit better animated than Super's currently. As far as martial arts, eh. I don't think either are superb at it, but I feel Super does a better job at the martial arts aspect compared to Z.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Venus » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:14 pm

Thing is, a lot of people dislike the fact that many of the fights in Super are basically just:

Ahtatatatatatatata *Punch* *Punch*

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Zagacious » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:08 am

Venus wrote:Thing is, a lot of people dislike the fact that many of the fights in Super are basically just:

Ahtatatatatatatata *Punch* *Punch*
Super has some decent fights but a majority of the fights are indeed this. There is more action in DBZ overall, even in minor fights. The average fight in Super is as weak as the fight between Vegeta and Pui Pui was, which is one of the shortest and most boring fights in DBZ.

The fights in DBZ are much longer in almost all cases. When was the last time a fight in Super actually lasted multiple episodes? (109 and 110 do not count because Goku wasn't even fighting for a majority of that time). Black Goku arc we had a few long fights but most of it was Super repetitive of Goku,Veg,Trunks sparring with Black with nothing actually happening.

DBZ includes repeated frames a lot but they are still a lot longer overall and the repeated frames are placed very well for the most part. Someone will do a few interesting attacks/movements and they'll throw in repeated animation between those moments to show them 'sparring', as opposed to Super where the actual fist to fist fighting is really repetitive a lot of times and a fight will last only 2-3 minutes whereas even minor fights in DBZ were usually at least 10 minutes long.
Last edited by Zagacious on Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:21 am

Dragon Ball Z was made with more time than Dragon Ball Super. We might as well be complaining about how the US middle class wasn't in total shambles thirty-five years ago compared to today.

I would offer, though, that Dragon Ball Super's best pieces of animation are still better than what Dragon Ball Z managed for its television series.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Ziegander » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:20 am

I think people are looking at Z with rose-tinted glasses.

For many of my posts here, regarding power scaling especially, I've gone back to review quite a few DBZ episodes and I have to say, as much as I think the plot of Super may be lacking in comparison to DBZ's, the animation, even the early episodes of Super (which I'm sure will cost me a lot of cred here), is LEAGUES ahead of everything in DBZ, including late Buu Saga. All of the fighting, including Super's atatatatatatata moments are substantially better choreographed, colored, and drawn than literally anything I can think of from DBZ. Watch the old episodes. There's a TON of trash animation in DBZ.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by fadeddreams5 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:34 am

Zagacious wrote:
Venus wrote:Thing is, a lot of people dislike the fact that many of the fights in Super are basically just:

Ahtatatatatatatata *Punch* *Punch*
The average fight in Super is as weak as the fight between Vegeta and Pui Pui was, which is one of the shortest and most boring fights in DBZ.
That was hardly a fight, but it was one of the most memorable sequences in DBZ. At least, in the dub.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Michsi » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:52 am

No doubt today's animation at it's best is leaps and bounds above what a 90's show could produce. I still feel like DBZ and late DB had a lot more well-animated episodes whereas DBS only has some great animated moments that appear like once every twenty episodes.

I don't know if this is nostalgia or not, but I feel like that the short Goku vs Chichi fight in the 23 TB looks better as far as choreography and impact goes than 80-90% of what we see in Super.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by sangofe » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:32 am

Amir wrote:Do you actually believe that claim is true? Do you think Z had less repeated frames and more interesting choreography with martial arts moves constantly?
I think not even close. But it seems that this is what everyone thinks. I am 100% sure Super has more sequences of well choreographed fights. What do you think?
No way! Super is miles ahead of well choreographed fights. They're insanely well done at times. If anything, Dragon Ball had better choreograph with martial arts but there's a logical reason for the ; the characters now are insanely much stronger.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Ziegander » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:35 am

If we're going to include Dragon Ball, which I don't think the OP intended to, then, yeah, for the most part, I would say that Dragon Ball, as in young Krillin/Goku, Master Roshi before he retired, that series did have some of the best technically represented martial arts animation for the entire series through Super. But, strictly comparing Super to Z, Super definitely, without a doubt is leaps and bounds better animated, and Super still has episodes at its best that beat any of the martial arts animation that OG DB had going for it. So... I'd say Super = Dragon Ball > Dragon Ball Z, in terms of animation choreography and overall quality.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by namekiansaiyan » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:51 am

Overall in any series if a fight does not include a Saiyan then the fight choreography will generally be better so if it has 2 then it is generally bad. Just look at Goku vs Caulifla on episode 113 and it is easily one of the worst of the tournament.

This is because Saiyans have very little variety in the way they fight so the writers find it hard to make good fights which is not punch punch ki blast and then repeat.

When it comes to characters like Hit, Piccolo and Buu it is harder to make a bad fight then it is a good one as they are so easy to write fights for.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:48 am

namekiansaiyan wrote:Overall in any series if a fight does not include a Saiyan then the fight choreography will generally be better so if it has 2 then it is generally bad. Just look at Goku vs Caulifla on episode 113 and it is easily one of the worst of the tournament.

This is because Saiyans have very little variety in the way they fight so the writers find it hard to make good fights which is not punch punch ki blast and then repeat.

When it comes to characters like Hit, Piccolo and Buu it is harder to make a bad fight then it is a good one as they are so easy to write fights for.
I definitely agree with you that character which are more strategy and ability based are usually far more interesting to write than the Saiyan characters, but I feel thats a little out of place considering the topic...

Overall, I would have to go with Z for generally better storyboarding, but I would say Super has more movement generally and better animation highlights, even though it does lack the polish of Z.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Faisal Shourov » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:44 am

I would generally agree but Goku vs Jiren was better than anything in DBZ.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by mute_proxy » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:02 am

Faisal Shourov wrote:I would generally agree but Goku vs Jiren was better than anything in DBZ.
Cell vs Goku was on the same level. Goku vs Jiren just had a lot of "cool" factor.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:11 am

mute_proxy wrote:
Faisal Shourov wrote:I would generally agree but Goku vs Jiren was better than anything in DBZ.
Cell vs Goku was on the same level. Goku vs Jiren just had a lot of "cool" factor.
In terms of pure animation, no, they were not comparable.

EDIT: When people Goku vs Cell is incredibly well animated, they're usually only referring to the episodes handled by Studio Cockpit and Seigasha. While Masaaki Iwane definitely delivered some really well put together action sequences, most of the fight relies on really strong directing and snappy though conservative animation to convey the speed and power of the battle, while also being limited in its approach.

The Goku vs Jiren fight, specifically the stuff from the second half of 110 relies far more an actual movement than the snappy though effective shortcuts that made the Cell fight so fun.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Dai-Saiyajin » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:49 am

I would say that Goku vs Kid Boo (Ep 279-280-281) is the better animated (IMO) and one of the best choreographed fights in the franchise. The art quality on that fight is simple the best I ever saw.

Other memorable fights in DBZ that comes to my mind are Vegeta vs Recoome (Ep 64), Goku vs Cell (Ep 179-180) and Goku vs Majin Vegeta (Ep 230-231-232).

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by sintzu » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:32 am

Z had better everything than Super. Super of course has its moments but overall in terms of fights and writing, it has nothing on Z or DB.
Zagacious wrote:The average fight in Super is as weak as the fight between Vegeta and Pui Pui was.
That fight puts most of this tournament's fights to shame.
Ziegander wrote:The animation, even the early episodes of Super is LEAGUES ahead of everything in DBZ, including late Buu Saga.

If we're going to include Dragon Ball I'd say Super = Dragon Ball.
So something like Ssj3 Goku vs Beerus or Goku vs Freeza was better than Ssj2 Goku vs Kid Buu or Goku vs Cell ?

Name one fight that comes even close to what we got in each tournament's final.

I don't know what makes me dislike Super more, its lack of quality after 100+ episodes or the fan boys that make the original 2 look like trash to justify it.
Last edited by sintzu on Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:48 am

Z's fights suffered from the poor adaptation, mainly starting from Goku vs Freeza on Namek. Fights in DBS have flown a lot better, the Majin Vegeta vs Goku is a good example it just went on and on and became boring that great Yamamuro cut aside it was just eh, cutaways in Z just made one lose immersion too whereas DBS at least when it cuts away still within the setting, using the Majin Vegeta fight as an example again they just kept cutting away to Gohan and Shin etc and when they cut back I am like oh they're still fighting?

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Amir » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:51 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Z's fights suffered from the poor adaptation, mainly starting from Goku vs Freeza on Namek. Fights in DBS have flown a lot better, the Majin Vegeta vs Goku is a good example it just went on and on and became boring that great Yamamuro cut aside it was just eh, cutaways in Z just made one lose immersion too whereas DBS at least when it cuts away still within the setting, using the Majin Vegeta fight as an example again they just kept cutting away to Gohan and Shin etc and when they cut back I am like oh they're still fighting?
Yes thank you! Someone else who thinks the same way I do. Most people just automatically yell at me that DBZ had everything better especially in the fights. I can feel nothing but amazed at how incorrect it is. So many fights with slow ass boring pacing and looped frames. There were some great choreographed fights, at least in a small portion of the fight but considering how long the fights were, most of the time they were looped frames.

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