DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Hawk9211 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:01 am

OG db had best fights at least in terms of choreography.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:17 am

Z had plenty of repeated frames, difference is that this show is using a lot less frames. I noticed almost not mid-point of punches and kicks in last weeks. Just start and end of movements, and using rapidly panning around scenery which doesnt match the speed of everything else to distract the viewer from the fact we literally got the start and end.

Now Z had that to a point but there were normally an extra frame here or there to give movement a sense of weight. Super lacks that in its movements and to make it obvious watch Goku vs Kalifla from last episode, theres no weight to any of the impacts

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by BlueBasilisk » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:35 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Z's fights suffered from the poor adaptation, mainly starting from Goku vs Freeza on Namek. Fights in DBS have flown a lot better, the Majin Vegeta vs Goku is a good example it just went on and on and became boring that great Yamamuro cut aside it was just eh, cutaways in Z just made one lose immersion too whereas DBS at least when it cuts away still within the setting, using the Majin Vegeta fight as an example again they just kept cutting away to Gohan and Shin etc and when they cut back I am like oh they're still fighting?
How much of the Super Saiyan Goku vs Full Power Frieza fight was just them flying across the landscape punch-spamming each other through houses and rocks? I remember there being a lot of that. It doesn't help that the fights were interrupted not only by cutaways, but by long monologues, staredowns, and panning shots of landscape.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:05 am

Super is such weird show when it comes to fights. When it doesn't have enough time or enough talent, you get shit like the episode 5(the first half), 24, 25, 26(the second half) and 33. But when Super gets given enough time and has the talent to spare, much like DBZ did on average, you get episodes like 57, 66, 86, 95, 109 and 110. Which trump a lot of shit that Z produced on even its best day. Episode 110 in particular is best the franchise has ever looked visually.

Z was certainly a better show in terms of consistency. But when it comes to high points, Super is the undisputed champ in the category.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Boo Machine » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:29 am

sintzu wrote:Z had better everything than Super. Super of course has its moments but overall in terms of fights and writing, it has nothing on Z or DB.
Zagacious wrote:The average fight in Super is as weak as the fight between Vegeta and Pui Pui was.
That fight puts most of this tournament's fights to shame.
Well that's just flat out untrue. Especially when you consider the fact that the Pui pui fight does everything that people give Super shit for doing. Repeated frames. Loops. Reused animation, and in general being a uninteresting one sided fight. The only thing I could give it is that english dub vegeta had a cool one liner. Unless you're a hardcore Vegeta fan that enjoys seeing him be "badass", The fight is an episode long slog to get through.
sintzu wrote:
Ziegander wrote:The animation, even the early episodes of Super is LEAGUES ahead of everything in DBZ, including late Buu Saga.

If we're going to include Dragon Ball I'd say Super = Dragon Ball.
So something like Ssj3 Goku vs Beerus or Goku vs Freeza was better than Ssj2 Goku vs Kid Buu or Goku vs Cell ?

Name one fight that comes even close to what we got in each tournament's final.

I don't know what makes me dislike Super more, its lack of quality after 100+ episodes or the fan boys that make the original 2 look like trash to justify it.
Really weird how you chose the 2 worst looking fights for super and chose the 2 best looking ones for Z when giving an example of fights in each series. Accuse people of trashing the original 2 to make Super look good all you want but you look no better doing the exact same thing in reverse.

Not that I agree that early Super looked Better than Buu saga, not by a long shot, the Buu arc looked pretty damn good most of the time, but lets not pretend Z fights were the stuff of top quality at all times and Super is just a trash heap of badly drawn action scenes with the occasional good looking one.

As for the topic itself, I guess most of the time Super is better at showcasing moves and martial arts compared to Z. But like Jazz pointed out above Z has better Story boarding and Directing most of the time which makes a lot of the fights look better. So I'd probably still give the edge to Z.

But when Super is good it's really fucking good and easily some of Dragonballs best.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by sintzu » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:35 pm

Boo Machine wrote:Really weird how you chose the 2 worst looking fights for super and chose the 2 best looking ones for Z when giving an example of fights in each series.
The animation, even the early episodes of Super is LEAGUES ahead of everything in DBZ, including late Buu Saga.
I'm the one comparing the worst from Super to the best form Z ? You quoted the above so how did you come to that conclusion ? All I did was show how wrong that was.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Boo Machine » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:43 pm

Early Super still had decent to pretty good fights, certainly way better than the two mentioned. The only other thing I can think of is that we have different ideas of what's considered "early" Super. Which I admit, thinking about it, is way too vague.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:47 pm

I'd say the opposite, actually. Super fights seem to have a way greater emphasis on technique and choreography than DBZ.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by HeroR » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:59 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:I'd say the opposite, actually. Super fights seem to have a way greater emphasis on technique and choreography than DBZ.
I agree. I personally find Z hard to watch after taking martial arts classes for a couple of years. Most of the characters are supposed to be martial arts masters and they have pretty lousy techniques and stances. For the lack of better words, Z had a lot of fluff with with no substance.

I enjoy Super and the movies made by Toriyama since I can actually see real martial arts even it’s exaggerated, which makes the fights for me better to watch over a lot of Z.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by PsionicWarrior » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:01 pm

I'm sorry but I think this is a nonsense thread, you can find better fights in Super than Z and vice-versa lol

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Ziegander » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:21 pm

sintzu wrote:Z had better everything than Super.
lol, ok. later you call me a Super fanboy when I honestly consider it a guilty pleasure that I just watch for fun. I would never say Super has better everything than Z, I just said it has better fighting animation. But ok.
Zagacious wrote:The average fight in Super is as weak as the fight between Vegeta and Pui Pui was.
That fight puts most of this tournament's fights to shame.
Ziegander wrote:The animation, even the early episodes of Super is LEAGUES ahead of everything in DBZ, including late Buu Saga.

If we're going to include Dragon Ball I'd say Super = Dragon Ball.
So something like Ssj3 Goku vs Beerus or Goku vs Freeza was better than Ssj2 Goku vs Kid Buu or Goku vs Cell ?[/quote]

Well, uh... yeah. That's why I said it. Let's take a look.

Dragon Ball Z - SSJ2 Goku vs Kid Buu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fev3XUzSLfA

Lots of great, if slow-motion, fighting in the first 4 minutes, lots of filler and dramatic tension in the last 6. One of the best fights in all of Z, the atmosphere and the variation in techniques are superb, even the use of ki blasts and character recoveries are creative and fun to watch.

Dragon Ball Super - SSJ3 Goku vs Beerus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCWN6kmzo8Y

Okay, fair enough, this is a shorter fight and some of the actual drawings in this are terrible. It also has some filler, but some fun character moments too. One of the worst fights in all of Super, yet it still has plenty of solidly animated attacks, particularly interesting martial arts moves, though the use of ki blasts in this episode are less than thrilling (a weakness for Super overall, I'd say). Certainly, comparing just these two fights, the DBZ fight is much better. Thanks for reminding me! I hadn't watched that fight in years, in fact I forgot it even existed. But I stand by my assertion that the overall animation of Super is way better than it is of Z.
sintzu wrote:I don't know what makes me dislike Super more, its lack of quality after 100+ episodes or the fan boys that make the original 2 look like trash to justify it.
I like Dragon Ball Z the most of all three series, and I think Super has the weakest plot, the most inconsistencies, and the most glaring flaws but its animation is not one of them. Honestly, I'm of the mind that trying to argue otherwise is a lot like saying, for example, Metal Gear (NES) has better graphics than Metal Gear Solid V, which is objectively just false. That's not exactly a 1:1 comparison, no, but my point is, Super's animation has come a LONG way, and, to me, it shows. We can quibble about art style or direction, but the animation has improved a ton since Z.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by sintzu » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:37 pm

Ziegander wrote:you call me a Super fanboy when I honestly consider it a guilty pleasure that I just watch for fun.

Super's animation has come a LONG way, and, to me, it shows.
Maybe you're not but that was the impression I got from your comment. Sorry if I misjudged you.

If you mean since it started then yes, there is improvment but I think there should've be more at this point.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Nero<>Akira » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:59 pm

Both have their pros and cons but in their best day. However, Super, and it's predecessor movie versions of the early stories (BOG & F) is superior in choreography, animation, art, & showcasing martial arts more than post 23rd tournament DB ever did.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Black_Liger » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:31 pm

Past arcs? maybe, but ToP has had much more action and more martial arts than anything in Z combined. Just the other day I was watching a episode of the Freeza arc and DAMN, Goku and Freeza traded like 3 blows, the rest of the episode was just pure unneded flashbacks piccolo was having of his entire life (Everything, I MEAN EVERYTHING).
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by sangofe » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:35 pm

sintzu wrote:
Ziegander wrote:you call me a Super fanboy when I honestly consider it a guilty pleasure that I just watch for fun.

Super's animation has come a LONG way, and, to me, it shows.
Maybe you're not but that was the impression I got from your comment. Sorry if I misjudged you.

If you mean since it started then yes, there is improvment but I think there should've be more at this point.
Can you honestly demand more with the last 4-5 episodes? Like, seriously, dude? You think you could demand episodes of the quality of the double episode every episode, or even better? And that from Toei?

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by MaskedRider » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:36 pm

Black_Liger wrote:(Everything, I MEAN EVERYTHING).
Everything?

Anyway, the amount of responses I see in disagreement are honestly unexpected.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by PsionicWarrior » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:37 pm

Black_Liger wrote:Just the other day I was watching a episode of the Freeza arc and DAMN, Goku and Freeza traded like 3 blows, the rest of the episode was just pure unneded flashbacks piccolo was having of his entire life (Everything, I MEAN EVERYTHING).
Sorry I don't remember the exact scene... You mean on Namek? Dude, there is a BUNCH of AWESOME fights in this arc. And even so, the fights lacking the action were there to help build the tension and drama, and honestly this lays more impact on the viewer than trading blows, because you get invested. Because you get to know and relate to the characters. Don't get me wrong, I do love the fireworks, but them alone don't make the job fully. Why people don't care about most contestants of TOP but do about Piccolo, Gohan, Kuririn etc, the answer lies in Z and these 'unneeded' scenes or episodes.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by FortuneSSJ » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:03 pm

Super's best stomps everything from DBZ. But it's truth in the beginning Super's lows were lower than DBZ's ones.
Now everything is alright and the average of good stuff of Universe Survival arc is higher than any other arc of this franchise before.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by PsionicWarrior » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:05 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:Super's best stomps everything from DBZ. But it's truth in the beginning Super's lows were lower than DBZ's ones.
Now everything is alright and the average of good stuff of Universe Survival arc is higher than any other arc of this franchise before.
Well that's like, you know, just your opinion lol

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by FortuneSSJ » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:09 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote: Well that's like, you know, just your opinion lol
I think that's obvious. Should I say, "in my opinion" everytime I post something?! Don't feel like it.
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