DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by precita » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:42 pm

All the fights in DBZ were better. And this isn't even nostalgia, they were just generally better

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by HeroR » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:47 pm

precita wrote:All the fights in DBZ were better. And this isn't even nostalgia, they were just generally better
Objectively no. Not all the fights in Z were better than Super.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by HybridSaiyan » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:08 pm

Z fights had the impact frame like...most collisions, thus creates weight to the blows. Z fights also displayed blood / battle damage which adds further tension.
Some Super fights have been pretty good but they JUST DON'T LAST LONG ENOUGH. Like others have said...it's just "tatatatatata" with that same camera angle. It gets boring.

[spoiler]Image
Image
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This has dimension, it keeps you engaged but then again, that's just my opinion lol.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Ziegander » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:17 pm

I mean, that's another of Z's greatest fights, but when I rewatch Goku vs Cell, I am not impressed. I wouldn't say I'm often impressed by Super's fighting either, however, the animation is simply cleaner, the pacing of the battles, I find to be better, and the actual speed of their attacks is more natural and flows better. In Z, in the art is often choppy and unclean, there's a lot of reused frames, and the fighting feels really clunky. Lots of slow haymakers thrown around and otherwise unimpressive martial arts feats abound even in the Cell saga. The Cell Jrs fight is a particularly bad example.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Boo Machine » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:21 pm

HybridSaiyan wrote:Z fights had the impact frame like...most collisions, thus creates weight to the blows. Z fights also displayed blood / battle damage which adds further tension.
Some Super fights have been pretty good but they JUST DON'T LAST LONG ENOUGH. Like others have said...it's just "tatatatatata" with that same camera angle. It gets boring.

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

This has dimension, it keeps you engaged but then again, that's just my opinion lol.
Those clips are some of the weaker parts of that fight and super has had better. In fact what you posted is very much what I would call the infamous "atatatatata" from different angles that you and others find so terrible. Which have been used quite well in both series and this new stigma against them is ridiculous. However the later half of that fight is really great and I feel has some crazy with impact. You should have posted some of those.

https://sakugabooru.com/data/ac70393f61 ... e604df.mp4

and

Image
Last edited by Boo Machine on Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by PsionicWarrior » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:22 pm

Ziegander wrote:In Z, in the art is often choppy and unclean, there's a lot of reused frames
Same in Super tbh... Even in latest episode they reused frames. But I never minded that, it's just part of the industry.


EDIT BTW these gifs are pretty awesome, is there some database or you guys do handwork?
Last edited by PsionicWarrior on Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Miracles » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:23 pm

Z Fights were better than Super's fights. They also had more passion and intensity behind their attacks.
You could actually feel that these characters were trying to kill each other. The flashy twirls and heavy sound effects just backed all that up.

....
Boo Machine wrote:
HybridSaiyan wrote:Z fights had the impact frame like...most collisions, thus creates weight to the blows. Z fights also displayed blood / battle damage which adds further tension.
Some Super fights have been pretty good but they JUST DON'T LAST LONG ENOUGH. Like others have said...it's just "tatatatatata" with that same camera angle. It gets boring.

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

This has dimension, it keeps you engaged but then again, that's just my opinion lol.
Those clips are some of the weaker parts of that fight and super has had better. In fact what you posted is very much what I would call the infamous "atatatatata" from different angles that you and others find so terrible. However the later half of that fight is really great and I feel has some crazy with impact. You should have posted some of those.

https://sakugabooru.com/data/ac70393f61 ... e604df.mp4

and

Image
Wow, like I was posting...the thread is over after these clips. All that quality! Z>Super.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Boo Machine » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:26 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote: EDIT BTW these gifs are pretty awesome, is there some database or you guys do handwork?
I just find some gifs and images and upload them to my Imgur. If I can't find the GIF I just make it. (though very cheaply with makeagif).
Miracles wrote: Wow, like I was posting...the thread is over after these clips. All that quality! Z>Super.
Heh. Screen shakes and SFX go a long way. Though I don't mean to dismiss the highlights from Super. One doesn't have to suck for the other to be good or better.
Last edited by Boo Machine on Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Kanassa » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:29 pm

When comparing fights, I'd say Super comes out on top most of the time. Super's fights don't overstay their welcome they show you the great cuts and don't try to over do it. In Z, most fights felt bloated with annoying take aways, stare downs and quips. And when you get to the fights themselves, yes the animation and choreography can be good, but even when those few great cuts came, in Z I'd say a lot of the time the animation felt stilted and slow in someways, as if the animation was staggering drunk into the next attack.

I mean, in Super you see the great cuts and can say that those were the fight. In Z, you see the great cuts (And there were a few damn good ones) and can say that's about 25% of a fight sprinkled in between the other 75% of padding weighing down the quality of the fight. A burger can have one hell of a meat between it's buns, but that means jack shit if the buns, sauce and other ingredients taste like cardboard.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by HybridSaiyan » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:33 pm

Boo Machine wrote:
HybridSaiyan wrote:Z fights had the impact frame like...most collisions, thus creates weight to the blows. Z fights also displayed blood / battle damage which adds further tension.
Some Super fights have been pretty good but they JUST DON'T LAST LONG ENOUGH. Like others have said...it's just "tatatatatata" with that same camera angle. It gets boring.

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

This has dimension, it keeps you engaged but then again, that's just my opinion lol.
Those clips are some of the weaker parts of that fight and super has had better. In fact what you posted is very much what I would call the infamous "atatatatata" from different angles that you and others find so terrible. Which have been used quite well in both series and this new stigma against them is ridiculous. However the later half of that fight is really great and I feel has some crazy with impact. You should have posted some of those.

https://sakugabooru.com/data/ac70393f61 ... e604df.mp4

and

Image

I'd rather have the Z's "Tatatatatas" Than the Supers.
But the examples i posted was just an indication of which repeated framed actions I prefer.

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

It looks okay, yeah? but to me even the buff Trunks stomping Cell looks better.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Miracles » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:36 pm

Boo Machine wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote:Heh. Screen shakes and SFX go a long way. Though I don't mean to dismiss the highlights from Super. One doesn't have to suck for the other to be good or better.
I agree. I like Super and Super has good fights. Not every DBZ fight is better than Supers.
Those SFX are objectively superior in Z tho. Plus with the score [music] in the background made it all the more electrifying.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Boo Machine » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:39 pm

HybridSaiyan wrote: I'd rather have the Z's "Tatatatatas" Than the Supers.
But the examples i posted was just an indication of which repeated framed actions I prefer.

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

It looks okay, yeah? but to me even the buff Trunks stomping Cell looks better.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
There isn't a whole lot of difference to be quite frank. Except if you're just not a fan of Supers art. But I can't fault you for your preferences.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by HybridSaiyan » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:41 pm

Boo Machine wrote:
HybridSaiyan wrote: I'd rather have the Z's "Tatatatatas" Than the Supers.
But the examples i posted was just an indication of which repeated framed actions I prefer.

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

It looks okay, yeah? but to me even the buff Trunks stomping Cell looks better.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
There isn't a whole lot of difference to be quite frank. Except if you're just not a fan of Supers art. But I can't fault you for your preferences.
I think It Is just the art that I'm bias towards...:sigh: I just see the Z fights to appear more realistic to my eyes.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by HeroR » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:53 pm

Kanassa wrote:When comparing fights, I'd say Super comes out on top most of the time. Super's fights don't overstay their welcome they show you the great cuts and don't try to over do it. In Z, most fights felt bloated with annoying take aways, stare downs and quips. And when you get to the fights themselves, yes the animation and choreography can be good, but even when those few great cuts came, in Z I'd say a lot of the time the animation felt stilted and slow in someways, as if the animation was staggering drunk into the next attack.

I mean, in Super you see the great cuts and can say that those were the fight. In Z, you see the great cuts (And there were a few damn good ones) and can say that's about 25% of a fight sprinkled in between the other 75% of padding weighing down the quality of the fight. A burger can have one hell of a meat between it's buns, but that means jack shit if the buns, sauce and other ingredients taste like cardboard.
Yeah, pretty much.

Super really benefits from shorter and to the point fights, although this problem is in the Z anime, not manga except Goku vs Freeza. Also more diverse fights like Hit vs anyone or even Magetta fighting. Super also gave us dramatic 2v1, 2v2, and 2v3 fights with Black and Zamasu, something Z didn’t have enough of.

The fights in Z felt kinda samey in many places.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by King Jacku » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:39 pm

Z's overall fights are better IMO. I cannot even fathom how some people think the Majin Vegeta vs Goku fight is bad. It was pure rivalry epicness.

That's not to say Super's are that much worse though. There are some really stand out fights that I watch almost daily, such as; Goku vs Gohan, Trunks and Goku vs Rose and Zamasu, Vegetto blue vs Merged, then of course Goku vs Jiren.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by HeroR » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:47 pm

King Jacku wrote:Z's overall fights are better IMO. I cannot even fathom how some people think the Majin Vegeta vs Goku fight is bad. It was pure rivalry epicness.

That's not to say Super's are that much worse though. There are some really stand out fights that I watch almost daily, such as; Goku vs Gohan, Trunks and Goku vs Rose and Zamasu, Vegetto blue vs Merged, then of course Goku vs Jiren.
If you don’t care for the rilvary, it’s boring outside some parts.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Torturephile » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:57 pm

It seems that some Z fans watch the shorter versions of Z fans on YouTube.

The way I see both series' fights is you can take away the boring parts of Z fights and you get an even better product. You have to add to Super's fights to improve them.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by precita » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:59 pm

The fights were more exciting because everything was new. Nowadays all the attacks, techniques are rehashed.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by HeroR » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:47 pm

precita wrote:The fights were more exciting because everything was new. Nowadays all the attacks, techniques are rehashed.
For the older characters, maybe. Not true for the new characters. Also, even Z not everything was new.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by precita » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:08 pm

It's weird, even the fights against henchmen or nobodies like the Saibaman, Zarbon, Dodoria, Pui Pui, Yakon, the Ginyu Force, etc. still felt genuinely exciting to watch.

The fights just seemed genuinely better.

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