DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by sintzu » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:23 pm

sangofe wrote:Can you honestly demand more with the last 4-5 episodes? Like, seriously, dude? You think you could demand episodes of the quality of the double episode every episode, or even better? And that from Toei?
I'm not asking for something perfect or on the level of the double episodes, just a bit more than what we're getting. To start I want longer fights like in the original 2.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by HeroR » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:26 pm

precita wrote:It's weird, even the fights against henchmen or nobodies like the Saibaman, Zarbon, Dodoria, Pui Pui, Yakon, the Ginyu Force, etc. still felt genuinely exciting to watch.

The fights just seemed genuinely better.
You can have your opinion, but objectively, you can't say that Vegeta fighting Pui Pui is better than ever fight in Super.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by precita » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:29 pm

HeroR wrote:
precita wrote:It's weird, even the fights against henchmen or nobodies like the Saibaman, Zarbon, Dodoria, Pui Pui, Yakon, the Ginyu Force, etc. still felt genuinely exciting to watch.

The fights just seemed genuinely better.
You can have your opinion, but objectively, you can't say that Vegeta fighting Pui Pui is better than ever fight in Super.
Not every of course, some of Super's fights have been great, but it's generally decent and on par with the fodder fights in the TOP.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by HeroR » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:35 pm

precita wrote:
Not every of course, some of Super's fights have been great, but it's generally decent and on par with the fodder fights in the TOP.
Not, it really isn't. At least not all of them. For example, there is no fight in the TOP that reaches the level low that is Goku vs. Yakon.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by sangofe » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:11 am

sintzu wrote:
sangofe wrote:Can you honestly demand more with the last 4-5 episodes? Like, seriously, dude? You think you could demand episodes of the quality of the double episode every episode, or even better? And that from Toei?
I'm not asking for something perfect or on the level of the double episodes, just a bit more than what we're getting. To start I want longer fights like in the original 2.
I actually think not having long fights is good.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by precita » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:42 am

Long fights won't work in today's climate. I never want to see anything on the length of Goku Vs. Freeza, Goku or Gohan Vs. Perfect Cell, or any of the Buu length fights in Super.

I hope Goku Vs. Jiren is no more than 3 episodes.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Michsi » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:57 am

precita wrote:Long fights won't work in today's climate. I never want to see anything on the length of Goku Vs. Freeza, Goku or Gohan Vs. Perfect Cell, or any of the Buu length fights in Super.

I hope Goku Vs. Jiren is no more than 3 episodes.
I think DB showed future shones shows both what to do and what not to do, and one of the what-not-to-do's was super long and stretched out fights. I don't think there was ever a final battle that lasted as long as Goku vs. Freeza.

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by PsionicWarrior » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:02 am

HybridSaiyan wrote:
Boo Machine wrote:
HybridSaiyan wrote: I'd rather have the Z's "Tatatatatas" Than the Supers.
But the examples i posted was just an indication of which repeated framed actions I prefer.

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It looks okay, yeah? but to me even the buff Trunks stomping Cell looks better.

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There isn't a whole lot of difference to be quite frank. Except if you're just not a fan of Supers art. But I can't fault you for your preferences.
I think It Is just the art that I'm bias towards...:sigh: I just see the Z fights to appear more realistic to my eyes.
I too prefer Z art, but honestly both these fights are good. Actually is good example, not the best of Z, not the best of Super either, just the average, and both are working fine in terms of animation/dynamics IMO

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by sintzu » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:40 am

HybridSaiyan wrote:I'd rather have the Z's "Tatatatatas" Than the Supers.
But the examples i posted was just an indication of which repeated framed actions I prefer.

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

It looks okay, yeah? but to me even the buff Trunks stomping Cell looks better.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
Yet some say Super looks as good or better than Z. The differences between them are night and day, in Z's favor of course.

With the 2 original shows you can tell they had a lot of veterans working on them while Super is full of newbies. If I'm not mistaking, that's exactly what was said in an interview when they were asked about the quality.
sangofe wrote:I actually think not having long fights is good.
I don't think we should get a 20 episode fight like Goku vs Freeza (thank god Kai cut it down) but important fights need to be longer, especially final ones. If you're going to bring back someone as iconic and badass as Vegetto then the least you can do is justify it, not show him for a few minutes/pages then get rid of him. If the fight was going to be that short and have that little impact on things then he shouldn't have been brought back to begin with.
precita wrote:Long fights won't work in today's climate. I never want to see anything on the length of Goku Vs. Freeza, Goku or Gohan Vs. Perfect Cell, or any of the Buu length fights in Super.
I understand Freeza's but the others weren't that long if I remember correctly, especially in Kai.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:53 am

sintzu wrote:
HybridSaiyan wrote:I'd rather have the Z's "Tatatatatas" Than the Supers.
But the examples i posted was just an indication of which repeated framed actions I prefer.

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

It looks okay, yeah? but to me even the buff Trunks stomping Cell looks better.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
Yet some say Super looks as good or better than Z. The differences between them are night and day, in Z's favor of course.

With the 2 original shows you can tell they had a lot of professionals working on it while Super is full of new people. If I'm not mistaking, that's exactly what was said in an interview when they were asked about the quality.
Ajay debunked that claim a good while ago.

Using selective gifs doesn't prove anything just for reference since the show doesn't stay strictly to those standards.

There are other factors to consider like who did the scene and what were the circumstances of the episode. Did the animators have time to hand in there best work? If so, how much of the animation of the episode did they handle and did that play a part in the quality?

Also, most importantly, is this a fair comparison?

I say this, because Super does have decent repeat scenes and the scenes used for Super there were from an episode that had a clearly troubled pre-proudction(they re-used and re-purposed a lot of animation) and ended up being only being a B tier episode.

Your Z example is from some of the most famous and recognizeable animators from Z(even then his cut was fairly conservative).

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by sintzu » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:17 am

JazzMazz wrote:Using selective gifs doesn't prove anything just for reference since the show doesn't stay strictly to those standards.

There are other factors to consider like who did the scene and what were the circumstances of the episode. Did the animators have time to hand in there best work? If so, how much of the animation of the episode did they handle and did that play a part in the quality?

Your Z example is from some of the most famous and recognizeable animators from Z.
Z's fights usually sit within the 7-9 range, rarely going below. Super on the other hand is usually 4-6 with some scenes, not even full fights going above that.

By the end of the year we'll be at 120+ episodes, at this point we should have consistant quality fights & staff. How long does Super have to go on for it to be held accountable for having the same issues it did on day 1 ?

A lot of Z's fights looked pretty good so I could get any other shot and it'll still come out on top.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by PsionicWarrior » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:27 am

I don't really see the problem with Super's fights, early ones were really really bad ok, but honestly, starting from FTrunks arc it is fine for majority of them...
I guess it's mostly the art, the music, the blood, the stakes and all that that makes Z ones feel better, but purely in terms of animation, I wouldn't say like night and day, especially not recent ones. :think:

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:39 am

sintzu wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Using selective gifs doesn't prove anything just for reference since the show doesn't stay strictly to those standards.

There are other factors to consider like who did the scene and what were the circumstances of the episode. Did the animators have time to hand in there best work? If so, how much of the animation of the episode did they handle and did that play a part in the quality?

Your Z example is from some of the most famous and recognizeable animators from Z.
Z's fights usually sit within the 7-9 range, rarely going below. Super on the other hand is usually 4-6 with some scenes, not even full fights going above that.

By the end of the year we'll be at 120+ episodes, at this point we should have consistant quality fights & staff. How long does Super have to go on for it to be held accountable for having the same issues it did on day 1 ?

A lot of Z's fights looked pretty good so I could get any other shot and it'll still come out on top.
Lets test that theory just for the Lols.

Super is a far less polished series than Z was, I don't think anyone is going to deny that, but Super has far more actual movement on average per episode than the average Z episode did, and most of the time its decently executed.

Super still has the same issue it had since the start of the series because it isn't problem you can simply solve with money. How do you create more time for the limited amount of animators you own if you can't hire more staff.

Also, I would say that Super of late has been completely OK production wise, we have had some dips in quality, but nothing comparable to what happened at the start of the show or even in Z.

Also, Super does have scenes that look better than anything from Z. This is a comparison between some of Supers best(and my personal favourites) and Z best(which also has some of my personal favourites).
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by sintzu » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:20 am

JazzMazz wrote:Super still has the same issue it had since the start of the series because it isn't problem you can simply solve with money. How do you create more time for the limited amount of animators you own if you can't hire more staff.

Also, I would say that Super of late has been completely OK production wise, we have had some dips in quality, but nothing comparable to what happened at the start of the show or even in Z.

Also, Super does have scenes that look better than anything from Z. This is a comparison between some of Supers best(and my personal favourites) and Z best(which also has some of my personal favourites).
Toei is one of the biggest animation companies in Japan while DB is one of the biggest franchises, How can they not find the $$$ to hire anyone else ?

A good amount of fights have been very lackluster, especially the ones in the tournament.

The first fight wasn't anything special. The next 2 of UI looked great but lacked choreography. The last one with Black was truly an amazing clip and really shows that this show can be up there with the best of them if it wanted to.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Boo Machine » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:24 am

sintzu wrote: Toei is one of the biggest animation companies in Japan while DB is one of the biggest franchises, How can they not find the $$$ to hire anyone else ?
He just told you that it wasn't a money issue. You can't use money to buy time and you certainly can't use it to buy more staff that simply isn't there.
sintzu wrote: The last one with Black was truly an amazing clip and really shows that this show can be up there with the best of them if it wanted to.
Yes, that's the reason the show doesn't always look like that. It's because they don't want it enough. Is that what you truly believe?
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by sintzu » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:38 am

Boo Machine wrote:He just told you that it wasn't a money issue. You can't use money to buy time and you certainly can't use it to buy more staff that simply isn't there.

It's because they don't want it enough. Is that what you truly believe?
Wouldn't getting rid of some of their lesser successful projects lead to better results ?

They probably do want that like we do but based on how far and few between those scenes are, there are clearly still issues preventing them from getting to that.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by dragon boss z » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:51 am

Ziegander wrote:the animation, even the early episodes of Super (which I'm sure will cost me a lot of cred here), is LEAGUES ahead of everything in DBZ, including late Buu Saga
You think the Goku vs Frieza fight in Super is leagues ahead of everything in Z?

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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Boo Machine » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:52 am

sintzu wrote: Wouldn't getting rid of some of their lesser successful projects lead to better results ?

They probably do want that like we do but based on how far and few between those scenes are, there are clearly still issues preventing them from getting to that.
No. Toei can't just become "Dragonball the animation house." That would be horrible for their business and make them FAR less of that magic money to actually make the show with. I know Dragonball makes a shit ton of money especially in merch sales but Not all, if any, of that money goes to Toei as they aren't the only ones who own Dragonball.

Yeah, and those issues have been pointed out time and time again, and it ain't laziness or lack of money. To put it disgustingly simple, it's not enough time (thanks to the really dumb decision to start the show so soon AND making it a forever weekly thing until we all die instead of making it seasonal like a sane production) and not enough staff. Which is a problem with the anime industry in general I believe. There are just less and less animators. Though as more Toei shows end we have been getting a few more people from those shows.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by sintzu » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:38 am

Boo Machine wrote:It's not enough time thanks to the really dumb decision to start the show so soon AND making it weekly instead of seasonal.
Wouldn't filler episodes with really low production value and staff give the main staff and content enough time to get on track ?

Come to think of it, maybe it's not all the production's fault for me not liking the way things are but also the art style. It doesn't exactly look the way Z did and I don't mean the Cel shaded animation but the way things actually look.
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Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Boo Machine » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:47 am

sintzu wrote:
Boo Machine wrote:It's not enough time thanks to the really dumb decision to start the show so soon AND making it weekly instead of seasonal.
Wouldn't filler episodes with really low production value and staff give the main staff and content enough time to get on track ?
It might give them a big of help, yes, it's most likely why we got that 10 episode buffer between the the last arc and the next, and probably why the majority of the recruitment stuff exists.

But the staff still has to work on those episodes, and you have to consider if you or I or the general audience would be cool with a long string of not just filler but really poor looking filler. Narutos "filler hell" was not taken very well from what I remember. To avoid that as much as possible they would still have to make at least a few of the episodes decent. Even if they were to go that route and it did get them to what would be seen as an ideal spot, you'd still get the occasional iffy episode, it happens to all long running anime. Even Z suffered from it more than a few times.
sintzu wrote: Come to think of it, maybe it's not all the production's fault for me not liking the way things are but also the art style. It doesn't exactly look the way Z did and I don't mean the Cel shaded animation but the way things actually look.
The character designs and color are different from what we got from most of the original run and it isn't all that appealing, so yeah, if you're a hardcore fan of the older look, then it's understandable why the newer art might be jarring. The older stuff also has better direction and SB than Supers most of the time at least as far as it's bigger moments are concerned.
Last edited by Boo Machine on Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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