DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

Faisal Shourov
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 462
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:10 am

Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Faisal Shourov » Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:55 am

Yes and No. Super's best was better than Z's best. Super's worst however was far worse than Z's worse. Z was more consistent overall.

With that being said, Goku vs Jiren might be the best fight in entire Dragon Ball.
Toyotarō: … I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama: Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

Timetraveller
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 224
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:53 am

Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Timetraveller » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:59 am

Faisal Shourov wrote:Yes and No. Super's best was better than Z's best. Super's worst however was far worse than Z's worse. Z was more consistent overall.

With that being said, Goku vs Jiren might be the best fight in entire Dragon Ball.
Maybe the best animated fight. Still doesn't compare to the best DBZ fights in terms of actual martial arts choreography. A lot of the Goku vs Jiren fight was them spamming ki blasts, punches and kicks or Goku in UI dodging.

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21005
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:12 pm

Timetraveller wrote:
Faisal Shourov wrote:Yes and No. Super's best was better than Z's best. Super's worst however was far worse than Z's worse. Z was more consistent overall.

With that being said, Goku vs Jiren might be the best fight in entire Dragon Ball.
Maybe the best animated fight. Still doesn't compare to the best DBZ fights in terms of actual martial arts choreography. A lot of the Goku vs Jiren fight was them spamming ki blasts, punches and kicks or Goku in UI dodging.
That's how 99% of the fights in Z are.

Timetraveller
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 224
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:53 am

Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by Timetraveller » Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:32 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Timetraveller wrote:
Faisal Shourov wrote:Yes and No. Super's best was better than Z's best. Super's worst however was far worse than Z's worse. Z was more consistent overall.

With that being said, Goku vs Jiren might be the best fight in entire Dragon Ball.
Maybe the best animated fight. Still doesn't compare to the best DBZ fights in terms of actual martial arts choreography. A lot of the Goku vs Jiren fight was them spamming ki blasts, punches and kicks or Goku in UI dodging.
That's how 99% of the fights in Z are.
I was comparing the best of both series. There was a lot of martial arts choreography especially in early DBZ

User avatar
JazzMazz
I Live Here
Posts: 2216
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:28 am
Location: Mordor, the Borg cube and Voldemort's lair all at the same time in the year 199X

Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:55 am

Timetraveller wrote:
Faisal Shourov wrote:Yes and No. Super's best was better than Z's best. Super's worst however was far worse than Z's worse. Z was more consistent overall.

With that being said, Goku vs Jiren might be the best fight in entire Dragon Ball.
Maybe the best animated fight. Still doesn't compare to the best DBZ fights in terms of actual martial arts choreography. A lot of the Goku vs Jiren fight was them spamming ki blasts, punches and kicks or Goku in UI dodging.
I think people really over-rate choreography. Choreography doesn't automatically make a fight interesting or engaging, otherwise ROF would be the pinnacle of Dragonball fights. Strong storyboarding and well timed and executed movements are far more important to an action scene than merely choreography.

Also, you mention the Jiren blast being just a bunch of ki blast spamming, punches and kicks, but there is a lot of finesse in the execution of those scenes, as well as choreography in even the repeated frames that make those scenes really interesting, despite not necessarily being martial arts based.

User avatar
OLKv3
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1643
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:39 pm

Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by OLKv3 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:38 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
mute_proxy wrote:
Faisal Shourov wrote:I would generally agree but Goku vs Jiren was better than anything in DBZ.
Cell vs Goku was on the same level. Goku vs Jiren just had a lot of "cool" factor.
In terms of pure animation, no, they were not comparable.

EDIT: When people Goku vs Cell is incredibly well animated, they're usually only referring to the episodes handled by Studio Cockpit and Seigasha. While Masaaki Iwane definitely delivered some really well put together action sequences, most of the fight relies on really strong directing and snappy though conservative animation to convey the speed and power of the battle, while also being limited in its approach.

The Goku vs Jiren fight, specifically the stuff from the second half of 110 relies far more an actual movement than the snappy though effective shortcuts that made the Cell fight so fun.
You must have meant 109, because 110 was filled with repeated frames and silent atatatatas.

User avatar
JazzMazz
I Live Here
Posts: 2216
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:28 am
Location: Mordor, the Borg cube and Voldemort's lair all at the same time in the year 199X

Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:37 pm

OLKv3 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
mute_proxy wrote:
Cell vs Goku was on the same level. Goku vs Jiren just had a lot of "cool" factor.
In terms of pure animation, no, they were not comparable.

EDIT: When people Goku vs Cell is incredibly well animated, they're usually only referring to the episodes handled by Studio Cockpit and Seigasha. While Masaaki Iwane definitely delivered some really well put together action sequences, most of the fight relies on really strong directing and snappy though conservative animation to convey the speed and power of the battle, while also being limited in its approach.

The Goku vs Jiren fight, specifically the stuff from the second half of 110 relies far more an actual movement than the snappy though effective shortcuts that made the Cell fight so fun.
You must have meant 109, because 110 was filled with repeated frames and silent atatatatas.
No, I mean 110, which is still easily one of the animation highlights for the TV franchise.

Repeated frames and "silent atatatas" don't bring down the animation of a fight if they are exceptionally well executed in terms of interesting posing, and have enough well executed movement and effects going on around them, which was absolutely the case in 110.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: DBZ had better choreographed fights with more martial arts compared to Super...

Post by PFM18 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:42 pm

Timetraveller wrote:
Faisal Shourov wrote:Yes and No. Super's best was better than Z's best. Super's worst however was far worse than Z's worse. Z was more consistent overall.

With that being said, Goku vs Jiren might be the best fight in entire Dragon Ball.
Maybe the best animated fight. Still doesn't compare to the best DBZ fights in terms of actual martial arts choreography. A lot of the Goku vs Jiren fight was them spamming ki blasts, punches and kicks or Goku in UI dodging.
I mean there was some spamming of ki blasts like any other DB fight but as far as the dynamic fighting and choreography goes Goku vs Jiren is leaps and bounds ahead of anything else. To me, Rewatching the Namek Arc everything feels so boring after watching the likes of Jiren vs Goku in the ToP. I can't even get through the slog fest that is Goku vs Freeza.

Post Reply