Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by Acetona » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:02 am

GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:
Acetona wrote:It was from the beginning. It started enjoyable and now is suffering, I can't stand it anymore...

EDIT: This arc is like the Thousand Years Blood War arc from BLEACH. A bunch of uninteresting fights with little to no plot that span across multiple episodes/chapters to the point it becomes unbearable.
I will say this though, TOP fights at least feel satisfying compared to the 2nd half of the Blood war. Those fights just weren't interesting and kind of fell off.
I agree, but just because ToP fights are... fights. In the Blood War case, they were just talking and weird shit because the enemies were stupidly broken. Jiren breaking through Hit's time paralysis was some kind of step into this territory. I hope it doesn't happen again.
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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:02 am

Acetona wrote:
GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:
Acetona wrote:It was from the beginning. It started enjoyable and now is suffering, I can't stand it anymore...

EDIT: This arc is like the Thousand Years Blood War arc from BLEACH. A bunch of uninteresting fights with little to no plot that span across multiple episodes/chapters to the point it becomes unbearable.
I will say this though, TOP fights at least feel satisfying compared to the 2nd half of the Blood war. Those fights just weren't interesting and kind of fell off.
I agree, but just because ToP fights are... fights. In the Blood War case, they were just talking and weird shit because the enemies were stupidly broken. Jiren breaking through Hit's time paralysis was some kind of step into this territory. I hope it doesn't happen again.
I'd say until Jiren grows a lot of eyeballs, we should be fine for now XD
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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by Zagacious » Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:14 am

It just feels long because almost everyone that isn't the main event (Jiren vs Goku) is treated like a throwaway character or throwaway episode. Aside from a few episodes like the Roshi ones and ones involving Hit, they're mostly just fodder that people are holding back against to make it last a whole episode and then at the end they are easily defeated anyways. Many battles that could have been bigger have been teased then entirely forgotten.

Every episode people would complain that they're not making good use of the characters, and of course the excuse people keep repeating "The tournament's just started! Be patient they'll make use of these characters later" and now it's heading toward the end of the tournament and most of the characters have still meant nothing because of how weak they are even compared to some of U7's weaker fighters. Characters that were hyped like Ribrianne, Trio De Dangers, Yardrat, and more are pretty much too weak to even matter, or in Trio De Dangers' case they were eliminated earlier because the writers chose to give them a fight they can't win (ie everyone who's trying to take on Goku) eliminating most possibilities for interesting fights.

It just feels like they built up the entire tournament solely for the Goku vs Jiren fight, and the other tournament fights were mostly just an afterthought.

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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:22 am

It is so poorly paced and seconded the way too many characters part with only a handful being of note(Kale and Ribrainne in particular). I do think the staff is trying to capture the Z formula, but oh it isn't working at all. Not for me at least. I'm just waiting for it to finish. I don't care about the endgame or whatever. I just watch the stuff with promising staff and skip the rest. It is that boring.

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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by irreality » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:10 am

I'm going to disagree with most people here. I love this arc and its pacing because unlike most Dragon Ball arcs it is not two people or two factions and having the strongest win. Sure, Jiren and Goku will be a "main event". But the story is so much more than who wins that fight. The tournament can have many outcomes and the outcome is not decided by any single battle.

All we know is that universe 7 will survive or be wished back at the end. Besides that, we have no idea what the outcome would be. It is quite possible for the tournament to end without all the fighters being eliminated, and then numbers will count for more than strength. And just having the strongest fighter or two won't help with the number game. Also, getting the wish depends on being MVP, and unless Jiren starts eliminating everyone, at some point he won't be able to mathematically beat out Vegeta or Freeza without eliminating them directly. Also, even if our "team" wins, the scope of wishes will vary significantly, from saving universe 6 to trying to defeat the gods.

Yeah, a lot of characters are fodder, but I thought even those provided some nice episodic moments for character development, or they help out with the overall numbers game for certain characters. Alternatively, some really impressive fights (such as the saiyans fighting, or even Goku vs. Jiren) are fun but materially irrelevant to the outcome of the tournament. I think though, those fights are laying seeds for future plot arcs or recurring characters -- while the fodder fights advance the current plot.

I'm not saying I like every episode. But watching something the Freeza vs. Goku or Cell vs. Gohan, there is very little doubt in my mind the outcome: our team will win and the universe will be saved. I could just watch 1-2 key episodes of those and feel I missed very little. Here, I'm not sure what direction the plot is going. I want to know more every week, and I feel like I do. Everyone has a different "victory" strategy, and that is interesting.

So no, I don't think it is dragging on. I'm still not sure who will win. Universe 6 could just as easily win as universe 7 since they have established such strong bonds between the saiyans for either universe to wish the other back. Universe 7 could win but have freeza make a crazy wish. Jiren could wipe everyone out but make some wish out of a sense of "justice". I still see many outcomes and I want to know more, plus, I find even the fodder fights enjoyable and there are twists and turns like Freeza sneaking in a cheap shot here and there, Vegeta saving the day at the last minute, etc.

Anyway, onwards, I say.

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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by Saturnine » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:24 am

dragon boss z wrote:They are definitely dragging this out. They are spending too much time on the U6 saiyans imo.
Take that, bro. This means less time focused on Goku and Vegeta :D

Well, not always, since Goku himself is often involved too, but you catch my drift.

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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by Kinokima » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:32 am

Was just thinking what if it is going to be 1 minute per episode that means we would go into the spring. :shock:


Well unless the tournament gets interrupted somehow. Which is still a possibility.

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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:40 pm

I think this really shows a lot things about the Western fandom. Primarily that they just don't have the patience to endure watching only one episode of Dragon Ball content a week, like the Japanese fandom have had to since 1986. I think many fans have just become a quite impatient due to becoming previously so accustomed to living in a time where they would watch 5 episodes of DBZ a week on average, and that has somehow seemed to have create this mentality where one episode a week isn't enough, regardless of how much content is packed into it.

If anything, this arc has had its finger on the "fast forward" button in the first dozen episodes. We lost way too many character in that period. I mean, two universes got erased in first five episodes alone. So I'm quite glad they've decided to reel it back with the eliminations a bit in the past few episodes give this arc some time to breath and allow some other previously characters more screentime.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by snpaa » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:28 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:I think this really shows a lot things about the Western fandom. Primarily that a they just don't have the patience to endure watching only one episode of Dragon Ball content a week, like the Japanese fandom have had to since 1986. I think many fans have just become a quite impatient due to becoming previously so accustomed to living in a time where they would watch 5 episodes of DBZ a week on average, and that has somehow seemed to have create this mentality where one episode a week isn't enough, regardless of how much content is packed into it.

If anything, this arc has had its finger on the "fast forward" button in the first dozen episodes. We lost way too many character in that period. I mean, two universes got erased in first five episodes alone. So I'm quite glad they've decided to reel it back with the eliminations a bit in the past few episodes give this arc some time to breath and allow some other previously characters more screentime.
I applaud you for structuring your reply in way where you try to make western audiences seem like they're a bunch of adhd riddled children who can't appreciate the multidimensional , studious ,intriguing, stimulating, profound elements of dragonball super . :clap:

I personally don't believe it's because of the lack of patience, it's because the story isn't engaging and the fights have not been particularly choreographed well,do you believe 5 years from now the caulifla, kale vs goku fight will be iconic scene from this franchise or just another forgettable time waster fight with constant loop animation? Z wasn't without flaws but it had enough going on to distract us from the bad elements of the show.

I enjoyed universe 9 getting eliminated compared to the other universes because their was a lot more going on in that episode animation & direction wise compared to the other universe eliminations and their was a lot less down time where they couldn't come up with contrivances to stall the fights for multiple episodes. I don't know why people believe that stretching out episodes with barely any interesting content is a good thing, you just end up spreading yourself thin.

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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:25 pm

snpaa wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:I think this really shows a lot things about the Western fandom. Primarily that they just don't have the patience to endure watching only one episode of Dragon Ball content a week, like the Japanese fandom have had to since 1986. I think many fans have just become a quite impatient due to becoming previously so accustomed to living in a time where they would watch 5 episodes of DBZ a week on average, and that has somehow seemed to have create this mentality where one episode a week isn't enough, regardless of how much content is packed into it.

If anything, this arc has had its finger on the "fast forward" button in the first dozen episodes. We lost way too many characters in that period. I mean, two universes got erased in first five episodes alone. So I'm quite glad they've decided to reel it back with the eliminations a bit in the past few episodes give this arc some time to breath and allow some other previously characters more screentime.
I applaud you for structuring your reply in way where you try to make western audiences seem like they're a bunch of adhd riddled children who can't appreciate the multidimensional , studious ,intriguing, stimulating, profound elements of dragonball super . :clap:

I personally don't believe it's because of the lack of patience, it's because the story isn't engaging and the fights have not been particularly choreographed well,do you believe 5 years from now the caulifla, kale vs goku fight will be iconic scene from this franchise or just another forgettable time waster fight with constant loop animation? Z wasn't without flaws but it had enough going on to distract us from the bad elements of the show.

I enjoyed universe 9 getting eliminated compared to the other universes because their was a lot more going on in that episode animation & direction wise compared to the other universe eliminations and their was a lot less down time where they couldn't come up with contrivances to stall the fights for multiple episodes. I don't know why people believe that stretching out episodes with barely any interesting content is a good thing, you just end up spreading yourself thin.
What on earth are you talking about? I'm saying that some of the Western fandom aren't used to watching Dragon Ball on a weekly basis, which is true. And has lead to some fans being impatient about what kind of content may be in any given weekly entry into Super, which also true. I'm not trying to put Super on a pedestal as this great show that every week is full of content that so layered, thought-out and well constructed that fans don't take the time to appreciate it. It doesn't matter if an episode of Super moves the plot along immensely in one episode or take a breath and slows the plot down, many Dragon Ball fans in the West will always be very anxious and/or impatient about what it going to happen next. Because waiting one week for the next installment of a Dragon Ball anime is a completely new experience for many fans as they were used to having five times that amount of content in a single week. So naturally, the plot for Z in one week would feel like it would be moving quicker. So please refrain from making such statements that over-exaggerate my point.

As far as the tournament itself, I've been very satisfied with it. It progresses as much as any Dragon Ball tournament would with the mood and environment changing with every elimination. I certainly think that if there one are that area that could be better it's the match-ups for some of the fights. But the combination of the amount characters, as well as the specific format of the tournament, with it being a battle royal, having a time limit which is quite short in-universe, have a no killing rule and even the size of the arena, contribute to how skewered the match-ups can be. Especially since how there is always a hierarchy of power in every tournament in Dragon Ball, so there is bound to be several characters who are ultimately going to be disposable in the grand scheme of the plot of the arc, given they are bound to run into characters who are just must stronger than that negate any kind special techniques and abilities they may have. A scenario like that is all the more possible in the Tournament of Power given the format of it, as I previously stated.

If there have been many "fodder" characters in tournaments in the past where there have been less than 20 competitors in total, then in a battle royal, that specifically doesn't follow the standards of previous world martial art tournaments with 1v1 fights, where characters fight each other constantly at the same time, have a limited time to battle and there are 80 competitors in total, there are bound to many more characters who are ultimately there just make up the numbers.

While for a setting like the Tournament Of Power you'd feel the need need to, on some substantial and tangible degree, get invested into at least some of the participants taking part in the tournament. Developing 80 characters, to the point where you're truly invested in their survival and have some kind of emotive reaction to their demise, is almost down right impossible without taking a incredible amount of downtime before the tournament happens. And finding a unique gimmick for 80 characters to make all match-ups unique and interesting in one setting in one story arc like a tournament is impossible. You're eventually going to either run out of gimmicks or duplicate them, and by virtue, make nearly all the match-ups identical and eventually uninteresting. At the same token, some characters work better when they don't have a build up as it can create mystique and intrigue going into the main event.

And that's not even taking into consideration that Dragon Ball has historically treated death and non-existence with little to no levity, and even in-universe death is treated as more of an inconvenience. Given the fact that, somehow or someway, they always manage to bring back all those who have been killed back to life. Only a select few in Dragon Ball, who have had a substantial amount of screen-time in the show, have died and stayed dead.

There are so many doubled edged swords with the kind of setting the Tournament Of Power has. But despite all that, I'm enjoying it despite the issues its had and has to deal with.

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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by Kinokima » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:31 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:I think this really shows a lot things about the Western fandom. Primarily that they just don't have the patience to endure watching only one episode of Dragon Ball content a week, like the Japanese fandom have had to since 1986. I think many fans have just become a quite impatient due to becoming previously so accustomed to living in a time where they would watch 5 episodes of DBZ a week on average, and that has somehow seemed to have create this mentality where one episode a week isn't enough, regardless of how much content is packed into it.

If anything, this arc has had its finger on the "fast forward" button in the first dozen episodes. We lost way too many character in that period. I mean, two universes got erased in first five episodes alone. So I'm quite glad they've decided to reel it back with the eliminations a bit in the past few episodes give this arc some time to breath and allow some other previously characters more screentime.

Well it is true that this is the first arc I've been watching weekly and I do think that has made the arc seems like its starting to drag. But I also watch most other anime on a weekly basis.

There are definitely still moments I enjoy a lot but I rather for example they don't focus on the same characters for 3 episodes in a row and mix it up a bit. Again it would be easier to get through the stuff you enjoy less when you can marathon it. But when you are watching weekly well faults and stuff do stand out more. And when you have to wait weeks and weeks to see favorite characters (I feel especially bad for Android 17 & 18 fans) I can understand some impatience with this arc.

I still look forward to Dragon Ball Super quite a lot each week but I am hoping this arc will be over sooner rather than later. :)

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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by snpaa » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:31 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: What on earth are you talking about? I'm saying that some of the Western fandom aren't used to watching Dragon Ball on a weekly basis, which is true. And has lead to some fans being impatient about what kind of content may be in any given weekly entry into Super, which also true. I'm not trying to put Super on a pedestal as this great show that every week is full of content that so layered, thought-out and well constructed that fans don't take the time to appreciate it.

What I'm trying to say is that the problem isn't that it's a week to week basis , it's that content isn't particular stimulating or engaging . Plenty of westerners watch weekly shows but the content with in those shows aren't been stretched out with little to any interesting content.
Lord Beerus wrote: It doesn't matter if an episode of Super moves the plot along immensely in one episode or take a breath and slows the plot down, many Dragon Ball fans in the West will always be very anxious and/or impatient about what it going to happen next. Because waiting one week for the next installment of a Dragon Ball anime is a completely new experience for many fans as they were used to having five times that amount of content in a single week. So naturally, the plot for Z in one week would feel like it would be moving quicker. So please refrain from making such statements that over-exaggerate my point.
I'm a bit confused here, define impatient? Are you implying that Japanese fans don't get anxious and express wanting to see the next episode as if they are all seemingly apathetic? I'm not being sarcastic is this reply here I know their are behavioral differences between the west and east, I just would not be capable of confirming if in fact what you say is true or not because I can't read or speak Japanese.

For me personally I watched the beerus arc, Rof arc, tournament 6 arc, and the goku black arc without having to wait week to week and I was still bored and felt as if the story dragged on. It wasn't because of the time constraints of waiting week to week , it was because of the content and the pacing , it just wasn't at a satisfactory level. Watching paint dry , for even 5 minutes would leave you impatient because nothing interesting is happening .
Lord Beerus wrote: As far as the tournament itself, I've been very satisfied with it. It progresses as much as any Dragon Ball tournament would with the mood and environment changing with every elimination. I certainly think that if there one are that area that could be better it's the match-ups for some of the fights. But the combination of the amount characters, as well as the specific format of the tournament, with it being a battle royal, having a time limit which is quite short in-universe, have a no killing rule and even the size of the arena, contribute to how skewered the match-ups can be. Especially since how there is always a hierarchy of power in every tournament in Dragon Ball, so there is bound to be several characters who are ultimately going to be disposable in the grand scheme of the plot of the arc, given they are bound to run into characters who are just must stronger than that negate any kind special techniques and abilities they may have. A scenario like that is all the more possible in the Tournament of Power given the format of it, as I previously stated.
Well for me personally , I have not been satisfied with it and I assume a lot of other people have not as well, the very structure of the tournament (battle royale) doomed this arc from the start . The appeal of a tournament arc is meant to streamline the fighting by giving one on one duels, give characterization to secondary and minor characters by taking screen time away from the characters that would normally monopolized it, having allies fight each other when they would normally not, showing interesting strategies and techniques. This is something highly unlikely to do well in a chaotic duel where people are fighting in teams, not using significant teamwork(strategies), spending time that could be used for fleshing fleshing out a character for ATATATATATATATA animation looop.
Lord Beerus wrote:If there have been many "fodder" characters in tournaments in the past where there have been less than 20 competitors in total, then in a battle royal, that specifically doesn't follow the standards of previous world martial art tournaments with 1v1 fights, where characters fight each other constantly at the same time, have a limited time to battle and there are 80 competitors in total, there are bound to many more characters who are ultimately there just make up the numbers.
Yes tournaments in the past had fodder characters but those characters had unique gimmick and strategy that they with them, nearly most characters in the TOP could be interchanged for each other in the way they fight but you couldn't say the same about previous tournament in the dragonball series.
Lord Beerus wrote:While for a setting like the Tournament Of Power you'd feel the need need to, on some substantial and tangible degree, get invested into at least some of the participants taking part in the tournament. Developing 80 characters, to the point where you're truly invested in their survival and have some kind of emotive reaction to their demise, is almost down right impossible without taking a incredible amount of downtime before the tournament happens. And finding a unique gimmick for 80 characters to make all match-ups unique and interesting in one setting in one story arc like a tournament is impossible. You're eventually going to either run out of gimmicks or duplicate them, and by virtue, make nearly all the match-ups identical and eventually uninteresting. At the same token, some characters work better when they don't have a build up as it can create mystique and intrigue going into the main event.
My problem with this statement is that they had plenty of time to develop characters before the tournament of power with the recruitment arc , but they chose to spend most of their time following goku and his dull shenanigans of recruiting characters we knew were already going to be apart of the team. Also this bolsters what I said earlier about the entire battle royale arc being doomed on arrival because the very structure makes it impossible to maximize the appeal of a tournament arcs.

Lord Beerus wrote:There are so many doubled edged swords with the kind of setting the Tournament Of Power has. But despite all that, I'm enjoying it despite the issues its had and has to deal with.
After all the money , time , and work put into this I'm glad that at least somebody is enjoying it, be sure to buy the bluerays and merchandise so you can inspire to them to make a followup battle royale arc.

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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:06 pm

snpaa wrote:What I'm trying to say is that the problem isn't that it's a week to week basis , it's that content isn't particular stimulating or engaging . Plenty of westerners watch weekly shows but the content with in those shows aren't been stretched out with little to any interesting content.
That's fine if you have that opinion. But a lot of people are extremely intrigued by what the Tournament Of Power is providing.
snpaa wrote:I'm a bit confused here, define impatient? Are you implying that Japanese fans don't get anxious and express wanting to see the next episode as if they are all seemingly apathetic? I'm not being sarcastic is this reply here I know their are behavioral differences between the west and east, I just would not be capable of confirming if in fact what you say is true or not because I can't read or speak Japanese.

For me personally I watched the beerus arc, Rof arc, tournament 6 arc, and the goku black arc without having to wait week to week and I was still bored and felt as if the story dragged on. It wasn't because of the time constraints of waiting week to week , it was because of the content and the pacing , it just wasn't at a satisfactory level. Watching paint dry , for even 5 minutes would leave you impatient because nothing interesting is happening .
There's no doubt that some of the Japanese fan would be anxious to see what happens in the next episode for any given Dragon Ball. But they've been used to this for decades. And in the case of the first two Dragon Ball anime's (DB and Z), most Japanese fans could easily read the original source material (the manga) and already be well versed on what the anime would produce in its adaptation. Most Dragon Ball fans aren't use to this kind of environment. It's especially more complicated with how Super is constructed as a long running anime compared to others (Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Fairy Tail etc.) Dragon Ball Super works with the context of a plot outline that we have no idea how much detail is put into it, and stretched for an undetermined amount of episodes.

Dragon Ball has always been light on plot. It's essentially one big fight leading to the next big fight. Your mileage will always vary with how much you get out of narrative like that. Some episodes will always struggle to provide engaging content with that kind of scenario. Some think it's stale and boring and other get a hell of a lot out of it from being so simple and straight forward.
snpaa wrote:Well for me personally , I have not been satisfied with it and I assume a lot of other people have not as well, the very structure of the tournament (battle royale) doomed this arc from the start . The appeal of a tournament arc is meant to streamline the fighting by giving one on one duels, give characterization to secondary and minor characters by taking screen time away from the characters that would normally monopolized it, having allies fight each other when they would normally not, showing interesting strategies and techniques. This is something highly unlikely to do well in a chaotic duel where people are fighting in teams, not using significant teamwork(strategies), spending time that could be used for fleshing fleshing out a character for ATATATATATATATA animation looop.
Even in the old-school world martial arts tournaments most of the new characters introduced were one note fighters created for the sole purpose of making Goku, Krillin or Roshi better in comparison.

Yes, some people aren't satisfied with the Tournament Of Power. But most other Dragon Ball forums I got to, people either enjoy the arc or outright love it.
snpaa wrote:Yes tournaments in the past had fodder characters but those characters had unique gimmick and strategy that they with them, nearly most characters in the TOP could be interchanged for each other in the way they fight but you couldn't say the same about previous tournament in the dragonball series.
No. They really didn't. I mean, some fans were already getting really impatient with the recruitment arc half way into it. And that was just further develop the main cast. It's an impossible task to develop 70 characters in a respectable amount of time before the beginning of a major event like the Tournament Of Power. I mean, Dragon Ball struggles to properly flesh out 7 characters in any given arc. How can possibly expect them to properly develop 70?! It's an absurd and unrealistic demand. Not TV show can do this. Not even One Piece (a show that has tons of characters). And as I've before, you're either going to run out of personalities and gimmicks or duplicate them either way with a cast that large. It's a no win situation.

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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by snpaa » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:40 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:That's fine if you have that opinion. But a lot of people are extremely intrigued by what the Tournament Of Power is providing.
I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with that statement but what is particularly intriguing about this tournament?
It's skewed for the universe 7 to win and even if they don't win the other universes aren't particularly malicious , and would probably wish for the other universe back.

The only interesting character in this arc is frieza but he barely gets any screen time.

Lord Beerus wrote:There's no doubt that some of the Japanese fan would be anxious to see what happens in the next episode for any given Dragon Ball. But they've been used to this for decades. And in the case of the first two Dragon Ball anime's (DB and Z), most Japanese fans could easily read the original source material (the manga) and already be well versed on what the anime would produce in its adaptation. Most Dragon Ball fans aren't use to this kind of environment. It's especially more complicated with how Super is constructed as a long running anime compared to others (Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Fairy Tail etc.) Dragon Ball Super works with the context of a plot outline that we have no idea how much detail is put into it, and stretched for an undetermined amount of episodes.

Dragon Ball has always been light on plot. It's essentially one big fight leading to the next big fight. Your mileage will always vary with how much you get out of narrative like that. Some episodes will always struggle to provide engaging content with that kind of scenario. Some think it's stale and boring and other get a hell of a lot out of it from being so simple and straight forward.
Again you keep trying to imply that week to week episodes is something exclusive to japan ,so I'll keep reiterating that not true and the problem is the pacing and the lack of engagement within the story. This is a problem because of either the writer, director, or production staff, not because westerner are just impatient. with past arcs their in z in particular the namek arc their was underline sense of adventure and exploration combined with the fighting . While in TOP they've been in the same artificial structure over and over , we know not to expect anything else other then atatatatata. While on namek they could explore and find other civilizations, hide from frieza soldiers, look for dragonballs ,explore the planet, recuperate, learn about the planet,meet new allies, fight Freeza's minions .

Lord Beerus wrote:Yes, some people aren't satisfied with the Tournament Of Power. But most other Dragon Ball forums I got to, people either enjoy the arc or outright love it.


Depends on where you go , in heavily moderated forums I notice that it's more positive while in less moderated forums people openly state their hatred for the show.
Lord Beerus wrote:No. They really didn't. I mean, some fans were already getting really impatient with the recruitment arc half way into it. And that was just further develop the main cast. It's an impossible task to develop 70 characters in a respectable amount of time before the beginning of a major event like the Tournament Of Power. I mean, Dragon Ball struggles to properly flesh out 7 characters in any given arc. How can possibly expect them to properly develop 70?! It's an absurd and unrealistic demand. Not TV show can do this. Not even One Piece (a show that has tons of characters). And as I've before, you're either going to run out of personalities and gimmicks or duplicate them either way with a cast that large. It's a no win situation.
Are you responding to something you cut out of my quote? It sucks that the edit button doens't work at least for me.

I don't know if you're trying use argument absurdism here or if I really have to explicitly state I'm not implying that I want 70 + characters being developed , just the obvious minor characters they introduced who clearly have more screen time and marketing then the rest of the fodder. caulifla, kale , cabba, HIT, toppo, dyspo could have been given more development within that time.This also further bolsters my earlier point that Battle roylae idea was faulty concept that had NO CHANCE of being a successful arc.

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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by Meshack » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:22 am

There’re several things that’re similar or exactly the same as the Freeza Arc: Gokuh using Kaiohken times 20, Gokuh using the Genkidama, and Freeza giving Gokuh Ki. The last thing I can see happening is Gokuh getting a new form with the Ultra Instinct power. It’s kinda already been hinted at.

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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:27 pm

snpaa wrote:i'm not disagreeing or agreeing with that statement but what is particularly intriguing about this tournament?
It's skewed for the universe 7 to win and even if they don't win the other universes aren't particularly malicious , and would probably wish for the other universe back.

The only interesting character in this arc is frieza but he barely gets any screen time.
I personally enjoy seeing the cast fight super strong people and the subtle character development and interactions among the various characters. I mean, people aren't asking for this Tournament Of Power to be this very complex or layered arc, because Dragon Ball has never written like that. It's just simple story, with wacky characters beating the shit out of each other with occasional moment of poignancy. And for many fans, myself included, that's all we ever want out of any given arc of Dragon Ball, regards of the scale of its setting. Hell, you'll find a lot of fans who view the 21st, 22nd or 23rd WMAT among their favorite arcs in all of Dragon Ball. And the premise of those tournaments is identical to that of the Tournament Of Power: a bunch of unique martial artists gathered together to battle each other until we get a winner. And for a lot of Dragon Ball fans, that's more than enough to get a good story out of.

Yes. We know that in the end Universe 7 won't be erased give the time placement of the story. But that doesn't mean we can't still be invested in the conclusion of the arc. There are still man characters in this tournament who we've barely seen anything from and plenty of time left before the arc ends. Let's just see how things play out.
snpaa wrote:Again you keep trying to imply that week to week episodes is something exclusive to japan ,so I'll keep reiterating that not true and the problem is the pacing and the lack of engagement within the story. This is a problem because of either the writer, director, or production staff, not because westerner are just impatient. with past arcs their in z in particular the namek arc their was underline sense of adventure and exploration combined with the fighting . While in TOP they've been in the same artificial structure over and over , we know not to expect anything else other then atatatatata. While on namek they could explore and find other civilizations, hide from frieza soldiers, look for dragonballs ,explore the planet, recuperate, learn about the planet,meet new allies, fight Freeza's minions
The setting between Namek and the the Tournament Of Power are so widely different that a comparison is faulty by logic. The Tournament Of Power follows the same narrative structure as every other tournament in previous Dragon Ball arcs, albeit with a few twists, but it's largely the same. In that the story can only progress in one specifically confided area and how the plot progress is dictated from one fight to the next. And as I've already stated, your mileage will always vary with how much you get out of narrative like that. Some episodes will always struggle to provide engaging content with that kind of scenario. Some fan will think it's stale and boring. While other fans get a hell of a lot out of the story from it being so simple and straightforward. What you and some people may find boring, others will find entertaining. Different strokes for different folks.
snpaa wrote:I don't know if you're trying use argument absurdism here or if I really have to explicitly state I'm not implying that I want 70 + characters being developed , just the obvious minor characters they introduced who clearly have more screen time and marketing then the rest of the fodder. caulifla, kale , cabba, HIT, toppo, dyspo could have been given more development within that time.This also further bolsters my earlier point that Battle roylae idea was faulty concept that had NO CHANCE of being a successful arc.
You can't develop a character if they don't have a personality to even begin with. Characters like Hit, Dyspo, Kale and Caulifla had to have their introductions first before any character development can take place. And it's usually in the main event itself, where the surroundings would be the most dynamic, that would allow for any substantial character growth. And as I've already said, some characters can work better when they don't have a build up as it can create mystique and intrigue going into the main event, in regards to what they can do or what their characterization may be.

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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by snpaa » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:37 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: I personally enjoy seeing the cast fight super strong people and the subtle character development and interactions among the various characters. I mean, people aren't asking for this Tournament Of Power to be this very complex or layered arc, because Dragon Ball has never written like that. It's just simple story, with wacky characters beating the shit out of each other with occasional moment of poignancy. And for many fans, myself included, that's all we ever want out of any given arc of Dragon Ball, regards of the scale of its setting.
Actually I believe that people would enjoy seeing character development within the TOP, as I said before that's what's the appeal of tournament arcs are otherwise it's just a bunch of mindless fighting that's skewed for the protagonist to win. Even if it was just mindless fighting that wouldn't be so bad either if the fights were particularly choreographed well , and in super they are not . I understand the production problems with making anime but if you can't make the fights look good then try to distract us with good simple storytelling. Now I know you're using argument absurdism here, you Know I did not imply that dragonball was a deep, multidimensional, complex story just that it could do more with it's characters. I'm not asking for Game of thrones tier writing , but this is a new series with new characters and I feel as if I should care about some of them . Their marketing push for these characters implies they want me to care about them but at the same time they can't be bothered to give me a bit more to become attached to them like previous characters.
Lord Beerus wrote: Hell, you'll find a lot of fans who view the 21st, 22nd or 23rd WMAT among their favorite arcs in all of Dragon Ball. And the premise of those tournaments is identical to that of the Tournament Of Power: a bunch of unique martial artists gathered together to battle each other until we get a winner. And for a lot of Dragon Ball fans, that's more than enough to get a good story out of.


They are one of my favorite arcs ,want to know why? The minor characters got development , had memorable fighting styles , tactics, and motivations. Take namu for example he was fighting in that tournament because his village had a drought and he wanted to use that prize money so he could buy lots of water for his village. in his fight with ranfan he opposed the idea of hitting a female but for the sake of his village he had go against his character for the the greater good. It was a short , simple, admirable , personal backstory and motivation that showed you what drives this character and what type of person he was.

Compare it to the TOP where most of the motivation is personal survival to save their respective universe, and the majority of the characters all fight the same . 21 22 23 all had diffrent unique fighting styles and appearances you couldn't just replace nam with Bacterian and expect the same kind of fight. If I replaced cabba with caulifla it's literally the same type of fight but the only difference is the "power levels" would allow caulifla to win.


Lord Beerus wrote:The setting between Namek and the the Tournament Of Power are so widely different that a comparison is faulty by logic.

Um ok but you just said
Dragon Ball has always been light on plot. It's essentially one big fight leading to the next big fight. Your mileage will always vary with how much you get out of narrative like that. Some episodes will always struggle to provide engaging content with that kind of scenario. Some think it's stale and boring and other get a hell of a lot out of it from being so simple and straight forward.

My point I was trying to make here is that dragonball in previous arcs mainly in dragonball and z there was much more going on compared to what is going on in the TOP.
Even comparing the TOP to the previous tournaments in dragonball would be faulty logic as well because it's not really a tournament it's a chaotic battle royale , with no breaks or stops. Goku has been monopolizing the majority of these episodes even tho we have much bigger pool of characters to follow compared to previous tournaments .

Lord Beerus wrote:You can't develop a character if they don't have a personality to even begin with.Characters like Hit, Dyspo, Kale and Caulifla had to have their introductions first before any character development can take place. And it's usually in the main event itself, where the surroundings would be the most dynamic, that would allow for any substantial character growth. And as I've already said, some characters can work better when they don't have a build up as it can create mystique and intrigue going into the main event, in regards to what they can do or what their characterization may be.
I'm not sure if you are purposely being obtuse here but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, they were introduced earlier on during the TOP, PRE TOP, Universe 6 ARC, and recruitment arc. within that time frame specifically the recruitment arc they could of used that time to develop those characters since that is what goku was doing was not that interesting or necessary to dedicate episodes to. By now even you must admit that teamwork mattering episode was a complete waste of time since the battle roylae has gone out of it's way to show that teamwork was pointless and not being used. For example universe 9 being eliminated in one episode when they tried to use teamwork and the pride troopers who were not apart of the top 3 being eliminated when they tried to implement teamwork. why couldn't time waster episodes like that be utilized for developing new characters?

Notice that I didn't mention jiren getting development, a character like him(final boss) should have a certain mystique to him but the other characters I mentioned the "mystique" doesn't add anything to the show.

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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:36 pm

snpaa wrote:Actually I believe that people would enjoy seeing character development within the TOP, as I said before that's what's the appeal of tournament arcs are otherwise it's just a bunch of mindless fighting that's skewed for the protagonist to win. Even if it was just mindless fighting that wouldn't be so bad either if the fights were particularly choreographed well , and in super they are not . I understand the production problems with making anime but if you can't make the fights look good then try to distract us with good simple storytelling. Now I know you're using argument absurdism here, you Know I did not imply that dragonball was a deep, multidimensional, complex story just that it could do more with it's characters. I'm not asking for Game of thrones tier writing , but this is a new series with new characters and I feel as if I should care about some of them . Their marketing push for these characters implies they want me to care about them but at the same time they can't be bothered to give me a bit more to become attached to them like previous characters.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm not saying that people want Game Of Thrones level writing. People already know how Dragon Ball is written, as I already stated:
It's just a simple story, with wacky characters beating the shit out of each other with occasional moment of poignancy. And for many fans, myself included, that's all we ever want out of any given arc of Dragon Ball, regards of the scale of its setting.
People just want to be entertained by the fights. I'm not saying some fans aren't entertained. But some of the are. That seems to a notion that you have an issue with grasping. You may not like the fight choreography of the battles in the Tournament Of Power, but a lot of other people do. What some fans have gotten in terms of the fights so far has good enough for them. Many people enjoyed seeing Krillin team up with Android 18. Or Roshi taking on the Universe 4 fighters. Or Dyspo and Hit's battle of wits and strategy. And not to mention how much fans have gushed over Goku's battle with Jiren.

And besides, we've seen some characters develop in this before and druing arc. Hit's characterisation reached its endgame with him teaming up with Goku and showing his dedication to Universe 6 with taking the role as leader. Caulifla was introduced a cocky, arrogant and disrespectful Saiyan, but has mellowed out. Kale started of a Saiyan with a severe inferiority complex and has grown more confident and enthusiastic in battle. Even Ribrianne characterisation was explored with her motivations becoming more clear and having her moments of self-doubt before being reminded what she's fighting for. Toppo evens sow many layers to his character. Despite his flashy entrance and exuberant attitude in the Zen Exhibition Matches, was later to be show the a very respectful, level headed individual who care very much for his Pride Troopers and universe, and deep down, he is actually horrified of the Tournament of Power's rules and the amoral behavior of Zen-Oh and Future Zen-Oh. And we later see in the tournament itself that when shit get rough, he's willing to abandon his heroic personality in order to survive. And that's not even taking into consideration how some of the established main cast (Roshi, Krillin, Vegeta and Android 17) progressed in characterisation before and during the tournament.
snpaa wrote:They are one of my favorite arcs ,want to know why? The minor characters got development , had memorable fighting styles , tactics, and motivations. Take namu for example he was fighting in that tournament because his village had a drought and he wanted to use that prize money so he could buy lots of water for his village. in his fight with ranfan he opposed the idea of hitting a female but for the sake of his village he had go against his character for the the greater good. It was a short , simple, admirable , personal backstory and motivation that showed you what drives this character and what type of person he was.

Compare it to the TOP where most of the motivation is personal survival to save their respective universe, and the majority of the characters all fight the same . 21 22 23 all had diffrent unique fighting styles and appearances you couldn't just replace nam with Bacterian and expect the same kind of fight. If I replaced cabba with caulifla it's literally the same type of fight but the only difference is the "power levels" would allow caulifla to win.
Barely any of the minor characters in any of the world martial arts tournaments in the past got character development.. I mean, most of the characters in introduced in world martial arts tournaments in the past were one note characters, who barely had fight even worth of mentioning, and after they lost, we'd never see again. Save a very brief cameo for a select few. I don't think a lot of fans remember the fighting style of guys like Nam because they were barely noteworthy to begin with and barely a made a difference even in the context of the tournament.

The only characters who ever got any significant character development in world martial arts tournaments in the past were Krillin and Tien. But guys like Giran, Bacterian, Pamput, Man Wolf and Ranfan? Total nothing characters that received zero development, and relied on one unique gimmick or technique that you could either no sell or was joke to begin with. Hell, even in the case of Nam getting a backstory, one of the few Dragon Ball character to receive that privilege in the entire story, it was treated as nothing but a gag.
snpaa wrote:My point I was trying to make here is that dragonball in previous arcs mainly in dragonball and z there was much more going on compared to what is going on in the TOP.
Even comparing the TOP to the previous tournaments in dragonball would be faulty logic as well because it's not really a tournament it's a chaotic battle royale , with no breaks or stops. Goku has been monopolizing the majority of these episodes even tho we have much bigger pool of characters to follow compared to previous tournaments .
What part of "the story can only progress in one specifically confided area", do you have an issue with understanding? Do you know how tournaments in Dragon Ball usually work? There are rules, restrictions, the characters are automatically handicapped in what they can do and what they can't do. Comparing this arc to arcs in Dragon Ball or Z that weren't tournaments is a fallacy of an argument. Arcs like the Saiyan arc, King Piccolo arc, Freeza arc and Red Ribbon army arc, had the freedom to explore any part of the Dragon Ball world/universe it pleased. There were no limitations to the narrative. Characters could kill each other and shift the tone of the plot or fly of to different locations across the planet or the universe and change the nature of the narrative. The Tournament Of Power arc can't do that because it's a tournament with rules. The narrative can't just radically jump to a vastly different scenario in another because there is one confided setting that 80 characters have to work with. It's not a planet or a universe. It's basically just a larger and more elaborate version of the kind of stage you would get in a martial arts tournament.
snpaa wrote:I'm not sure if you are purposely being obtuse here but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, they were introduced earlier on during the TOP, PRE TOP, Universe 6 ARC, and recruitment arc. within that time frame specifically the recruitment arc they could of used that time to develop those characters since that is what goku was doing was not that interesting or necessary to dedicate episodes to. By now even you must admit that teamwork mattering episode was a complete waste of time since the battle roylae has gone out of it's way to show that teamwork was pointless and not being used. For example universe 9 being eliminated in one episode when they tried to use teamwork and the pride troopers who were not apart of the top 3 being eliminated when they tried to implement teamwork. why couldn't time waster episodes like that be utilized for developing new characters?

Notice that I didn't mention jiren getting development, a character like him(final boss) should have a certain mystique to him but the other characters I mentioned the "mystique" doesn't add anything to the show.
Characters like Hit and Cabba were already in the process of their character development before the Tournament Of Power arc even began.

You also seem to forgetting that characters like Krillin, Roshi, Android 17, Majin Boo, and eventually Freeza, had to justify their place in the team given there are other characters in the cast who could have been selected in their place and bring more to the table in terms of power. So for characters like Roshi and Krillin the show needed the extra time to display what kind of unique abilities or traits characters like them can bring to table to make for not being the strongest character possible to pick. In Android 17's case, we haven't seen in the main story in decades. He needed a proper re-introduction, considering how much time had passed since the last time he saw seen in-universe.

Teamwork has been vital in several situations in the tournament so far. Whether it's eliminating characters, as shown with the Krillin/Roshi, Android 18/Krillin and Tien/Roshi tag team attacks eliminating some fighters, the tandem of Botamo and Magetta working to together to cancelling out their weaknesses in battle, Hit using his Time-Skip to save Caulifla from being eliminated during Kale's SSJ Berserk rampage, when Vikal aided Sanka Ku from being eliminated and propelled her back into combat against Android 17 and Jimeze using Instant Transmission to get Brianne and Su into a more safe location in the ring and Dyspo getting saved by another Pride Trooper (Kunshi) from being eliminated by Hit's abilities.

I honestly can't believe that people think that tournament hasn't displayed at all in a effective manner. Yeah, sometimes teamwork doesn't pan out out. As seen with the Trio De Dangers and some of the Pride Troopers. But for most of the tournament, teamwork been very effective in thinning out the numbers of opponent and keeping the teammates of the respective universes still in the battle. So I don't understand his complaint at all. And quite frankly, it reeks of not paying close enough attention. In a tournament where it's not just about eliminating people, but also making sure that your universe has the most amount of fighters left, teamwork has been very much still a core concept of the Tournament Of Power.

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Re: Is the TOP becoming like Goku Vs. Freeza on Namek?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:38 pm

Torturephile wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote:I for one never had any trouble with Goku vs Freeza on Namek so no problem here in terms of length for me, as I already mentioned what doesn't work here (imo) is TOP keeps on giving the spotlight to characters we don't care about, and many of the ones we care or might care about are so monolithic it's painful, also that we can't REALLY feel the stakes of universes getting erased because they have put too much stupid jokes/light parts at times.

TOP lacks the drama FTrunks arc had.
It's different for me. The future saga had too many mood whiplashes since it was dramatic at some points and comedic (generally Pilaf Gang scenes) at others within the same episode. The ToP hasn't been much of a source of comedy, specially as of late. All that it misses is characters taking the stakes more seriously and then it could be dramatic like the future saga.
Yeah as of late it became a bit more serious, and 109-110 was amazing, but no we had plenty of comedy scenes in TOP mate lol
Even though that isn't even really the issue, we can't care about the other universes because we don't know them, after U7 we care about U6, because we already know them a bit from U6 arc, but the rest? They can get erased I don't give a damn lol

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